Are these contradictions in the gospels?

[jimmyjimmy]

No, your logic insists that if the text is unreliable at any point, the whole thing should be thrown out. If I have a witness to a murder, and the witness was sober and accurate on all points except the color of the getaway car to the best of his recollection, a defense lawyer might argue the witnesses entire testimony was invalid and try to get his client acquitted. But that's a perfectly possible scenario and happens all the time, and the murder, the event (in this case the death and resurrection) still happened.

So how many angels were in the tomb? Matthew and Mark say 1. Luke and John say 2. I don't know. But I know there was an empty tomb and there were angels.

Who carried Christ's cross? Matthew, Mark and Luke all say Simon of Cyrene was enlisted. John says simply "Carrying his own cross, he went out" John 19:17.

I don't know who carried it. But I know Christ was crucified for my sins.

My NIV has notes - right after Mark 16:8:

"the earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20"

Oh.

Ok...

Note to self - be cautious with snake handling and drinking deadly poison unless it's absolutely necessary...

I know that we are dealing with copies of copies of copies at this point, and translations between languages where the word meanings have been lost. So I believe this is 'the best we've got'. Things may have been added. Things may have been lost. Even with what was originally assembled, things may never have added up quite 100%.

That's OK.

I believe it's good enough for what it was intended to do with my life. It got me Seeking.

If you believe the documents unreliable because of transcription errors, and other various errors and mishandling, BUT you do not have a "perfect" "original" transcript in which to point out WHERE the "inaccurate" document has erred, then you have absolutely no idea is ANY of it is correct.

You are saying, "here is a book which contains errors, but THESE parts do not." Any other reply but, I would not trust what that book says regarding how to tie my shoelaces, never mind my eternal soul, would be insane. It is a tainted document.

You are simply engaging in a rouse. A very transparent one. You call the Bible unreliable, so that you may avoid what you do not like. It simply doesn't work that way. Logic doesn't work that way. Christianity doesn't work that way. God doesn't work that way. Ask Adam and Eve. Sorry, I forgot. They were not historical figures, but an amalgamation (according to Peter Enns and his following).

Your view, the view of Protestant Liberalism, attempts to have its cake and eat it too. We all know that can't be done.

 

[Petros2015]

Your view, the view of Protestant Liberalism, attempts to have its cake and eat it too. We all know that can't be done.

You are right. It can't be done in a vacuum. So I went and found the Church who put it together.

 

[Petros2015]

You call the Bible unreliable, so that you may avoid what you do not like.

As a side note, I would add, that I have been utterly incapable of avoiding any of the parts of the Bible that I do not like, including the contradictions. And I tried very, very hard. I would not call it unreliable, nor infallible. I would call it Sufficient.

 

[pescador]

Much of this discussion seems to be focused on the differences found in the four gospels. The men who wrote them were not journalists, they were historical authors. Biographies in NT times were subjective reports written at different times to explain what happened to a specific audience. The purpose was to explain to those differences audiences why Jesus was God's Messiah, the anointed one. Additionally, Paul preached a gospel of Jesus Christ that was given to him by the Holy Spirit.

There was no intent to be "factually correct" or inerrant. They wrote and spoke the spiritual truth that was given to them.

 

[hedrick]

You are simply engaging in a rouse. A very transparent one. You call the Bible unreliable, so that you may avoid what you do not like.

This is ad hominem. We can just as easily make accusations against people who use impossible exegesis to avoid challenging their traditions. Really, no discussion is going to be useful until we're willing to admit that each of us is actually trying to do what Jesus told us to do.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I don't want to doubt the bible, but I keep running into areas that seem to cast shadows of doubt on my faith. I was reading this morning in Mark in the account of John the Baptist's beheading.


But when Herod heard, he said, “This is John, whom I beheaded; he has been raised from the dead!” For Herod himself had sent and laid hold of John, and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife; for he had married her. Because John had said to Herod, “It is not lawful for you to have your brother’s wife.”
Therefore Herodias held it against him and wanted to kill him, but she could not; for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just and holy man, and he protected him. And when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly. Mark 6:16-20


I remembered the account in Matthew since it was fresh in my mind.

For Herod had laid hold of John and bound him, and put him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife. Because John had said to him, “It is not lawful for you to have her.” And although he wanted to put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet. Matthew 14 : 3-5

Did Herod want John put to death or not. .

Herod's brother's wife wanted John's head. Herodias.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

This is ad hominem. We can just as easily make accusations against people who use impossible exegesis to avoid challenging their traditions. Really, no discussion is going to be useful until we're willing to admit that each of us is actually trying to do what Jesus told us to do.

I'm never going to agree that Jesus told us to "marry" homosexuals, and I'm never going to get my cues from the likes of Schleiermacher.

Protestant Liberalsim comes the the text with an agenda. Rather than letting it conform them, they transform it. Rather than submitting to it, they sit in judgement of it.

 

[pescador]

I'm never going to agree that Jesus told us to "marry" homosexuals.

Where did that come from? This is a thread about possible contradictions in the Bible. Did you post to the wrong thread?

 

[JackRT]

GENEOLOGIES OF JESUS


1 Chronicles 3:5-19......Matthew 1: 1-17......Luke 3: 23-38

David 1004-965...........David.....................David

Solomon 965-928........Solomon.................Nathan

Rehoboam 928-911.....Rehoboam...............Mattatha

Abijah 911-908............Abijah....................Menna

Asa 908-867.................Asa.......................Melea

Jehoshaphat 867-846....Jehoshaphat...........Eliakim

Joram 846-843.............Joram....................Jonam

Ahaziah 843-842.......................................Joseph **

Joash 837-798...........................................Judah **

Amaziah 798-769.......................................Simeon **

Azariah......................…Uzziah (Azariah).......Levi **

Jotham 741-733............ Jotham..................Matthat

Ahaz 733-727................Ahaz......................Jorim

Hezekiah 727-698..........Hezekiah...............

Manasseh 698-642.........Manasseh..............

Amon 641-640...............Amos (Amon)…...

Josiah 639-609...............Josiah....................Eliezer

Jehoiakim 608-598......................................Jesus

Jeconiah.........................Jeconiah *.............Er

.......................***** the exile *****..................

......................................Elmadam...................

......................................Cosam.......................

......................................Addi..........................

......................................Melchi.......................

......................................Neri...........................

Shealtiel.........................Salathiel.................Salathiel

Zerubbabel....................Zerubbabel..............Zerubbabel

.....................................Abiud......................Rhesa

.....................................Eliakim....................Joanan

.....................................Azor.........................Joda

.....................................Zadok.......................Josech

.....................................Achim......................Semien

.....................................Eliud........................Mattathias

.....................................Eleazar.....................Maath

.....................................Matthan....................Naggai

.....................................................................Esli

.....................................................................Nahum

.....................................................................Amos

.....................................................................Mattathias

.....................................................................Joseph

.....................................................................Jannai

.........................................................…..........Melchi

......................................................................Levi

......................................................................Matthat

.....................................Jacob....................…...Heli

.....................................Joseph.......................Joseph

Notes:

* childless! See Jer 22: 30

** not used as personal names till after the exile

 

[pescador]

GENEOLOGIES OF JESUS


1 Chronicles 3:5-19......Matthew 1: 1-17......Luke 3: 23-38

David 1004-965...........David.....................David

Solomon 965-928........Solomon.................Nathan

Rehoboam 928-911.....Rehoboam...............Mattatha

Abijah 911-908............Abijah....................Menna

Asa 908-867.................Asa.......................Melea

Jehoshaphat 867-846....Jehoshaphat...........Eliakim

Joram 846-843.............Joram....................Jonam

Ahaziah 843-842.......................................Joseph **

Joash 837-798...........................................Judah **

Amaziah 798-769.......................................Simeon **

Azariah......................…Uzziah (Azariah).......Levi **

Jotham 741-733............ Jotham..................Matthat

Ahaz 733-727................Ahaz......................Jorim

Hezekiah 727-698..........Hezekiah...............

Manasseh 698-642.........Manasseh..............

Amon 641-640...............Amos (Amon)…...

Josiah 639-609...............Josiah....................Eliezer

Jehoiakim 608-598......................................Jesus

Jeconiah.........................Jeconiah *.............Er

.......................***** the exile *****..................

......................................Elmadam...................

......................................Cosam.......................

......................................Addi..........................

......................................Melchi.......................

......................................Neri...........................

Shealtiel.........................Salathiel.................Salathiel

Zerubbabel....................Zerubbabel..............Zerubbabel

.....................................Abiud......................Rhesa

.....................................Eliakim....................Joanan

.....................................Azor.........................Joda

.....................................Zadok.......................Josech

.....................................Achim......................Semien

.....................................Eliud........................Mattathias

.....................................Eleazar.....................Maath

.....................................Matthan....................Naggai

.....................................................................Esli

.....................................................................Nahum

.....................................................................Amos

.....................................................................Mattathias

.....................................................................Joseph

.....................................................................Jannai

.........................................................…..........Melchi

......................................................................Levi

......................................................................Matthat

.....................................Jacob....................…...Heli

.....................................Joseph.......................Joseph

Notes:

* childless! See Jer 22: 30

** not used as personal names till after the exile

And the point of this is..?

 

[JackRT]

And the point of this is..?

A whole bouquet of contradictions.

 

[pescador]

These are not contradictions. As I said previously the authors were not journalists in the modern sense. They wrote what the Spirit inspired them to write. Each had a different message to their respective audiences.

If you want to cite the differences as contradictions then I suggest that you familiarize yourself with ancient writings: their purpose was to enlighten the thinking and cultures of their times, not to report "facts". Think about editorials written in today's newspapers and you'll be closer to understanding the "books" of the Bible.

 

[ToBeLoved]

GENEOLOGIES OF JESUS


1 Chronicles 3:5-19......Matthew 1: 1-17......Luke 3: 23-38

David 1004-965...........David.....................David

Solomon 965-928........Solomon.................Nathan

Rehoboam 928-911.....Rehoboam...............Mattatha

Abijah 911-908............Abijah....................Menna

Asa 908-867.................Asa.......................Melea

Jehoshaphat 867-846....Jehoshaphat...........Eliakim

Joram 846-843.............Joram....................Jonam

Ahaziah 843-842.......................................Joseph **

Joash 837-798...........................................Judah **

Amaziah 798-769.......................................Simeon **

Azariah......................…Uzziah (Azariah).......Levi **

Jotham 741-733............ Jotham..................Matthat

Ahaz 733-727................Ahaz......................Jorim

Hezekiah 727-698..........Hezekiah...............

Manasseh 698-642.........Manasseh..............

Amon 641-640...............Amos (Amon)…...

Josiah 639-609...............Josiah....................Eliezer

Jehoiakim 608-598......................................Jesus

Jeconiah.........................Jeconiah *.............Er

.......................***** the exile *****..................

......................................Elmadam...................

......................................Cosam.......................

......................................Addi..........................

......................................Melchi.......................

......................................Neri...........................

Shealtiel.........................Salathiel.................Salathiel

Zerubbabel....................Zerubbabel..............Zerubbabel

.....................................Abiud......................Rhesa

.....................................Eliakim....................Joanan

.....................................Azor.........................Joda

.....................................Zadok.......................Josech

.....................................Achim......................Semien

.....................................Eliud........................Mattathias

.....................................Eleazar.....................Maath

.....................................Matthan....................Naggai

.....................................................................Esli

.....................................................................Nahum

.....................................................................Amos

.....................................................................Mattathias

.....................................................................Joseph

.....................................................................Jannai

.........................................................…..........Melchi

......................................................................Levi

......................................................................Matthat

.....................................Jacob....................…...Heli

.....................................Joseph.......................Joseph

Notes:

* childless! See Jer 22: 30

** not used as personal names till after the exile

This is not the genealgy of Jesus, it's the geneology of Joseph.

23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, 24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph, 25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge, 26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda, 27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri, 28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er, 29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, 30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim, 31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David, 32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson, 33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda, 34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor, 35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala, 36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech, 37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan, 38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.



I have no problem with the geneology of Joseph.

 

[JackRT]

So you are suggesting that Jesus was not of the lineage of David? That was the genealogy in Luke. Why is it so different from that in Matthew? And why do both differ from the lineage of the Davidic kings in Chronicles?

 

[pescador]

So you are suggesting that Jesus was not of the lineage of David? That was the genealogy in Luke. Why is it so different from that in Matthew? And why do both differ from the lineage of the Davidic kings in Chronicles?

I repeat... (Please read!)

These are not contradictions. As I said previously the authors were not journalists in the modern sense. They wrote what the Spirit inspired them to write. Each had a different message to their respective audiences.

If you want to cite the differences as contradictions then I suggest that you familiarize yourself with ancient writings: their purpose was to enlighten the thinking and cultures of their times, not to report "facts". Think about editorials written in today's newspapers and you'll be closer to understanding the "books" of the Bible.

Luke was written to a Gentile audience to explain Jesus' lineage. Matthew was written to a Jewish audience to explain Jesus' lineage. Chronicles was written to Jews to explain the lineage of the Davidic kings.

I would really help if you stopped applying the rules of modern journalism to cultures and methods of writing that existed thousands of years ago.

 

[JackRT]

I repeat... (Please read!)

These are not contradictions. As I said previously the authors were not journalists in the modern sense. They wrote what the Spirit inspired them to write. Each had a different message to their respective audiences.

If you want to cite the differences as contradictions then I suggest that you familiarize yourself with ancient writings: their purpose was to enlighten the thinking and cultures of their times, not to report "facts". Think about editorials written in today's newspapers and you'll be closer to understanding the "books" of the Bible.

Luke was written to a Gentile audience to explain Jesus' lineage. Matthew was written to a Jewish audience to explain Jesus' lineage. Chronicles was written to Jews to explain the lineage of the Davidic kings.

I would really help if you stopped applying the rules of modern journalism to cultures and methods of writing that existed thousands of years ago.

With the exception of your first and last sentences I am in full agreement. However, an application of the rules of modern journalism points out that the three genealogies cannot all be true simultaneously. That, in itself is instructive to our understanding of the bible.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

There are plenty of minor contradictions, but nothing serious or doctrinal, more just the sort of differences you would expect when you have multiple sources recollecting the same events from years ago. The Holy Spirit inspired the Gospels, but that doesn't mean the Spirit dictated them word for word.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

their purpose was to enlighten the thinking and cultures of their times, not to report "facts".

Ah, no. The intent of the Gospels is very much to be factual. Papias (the main source of the authorship of the Gospels) says that the saying and events are necessarily in chronological order though, but more as remembered and in the order they're taught.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

With the exception of your first and last sentences I am in full agreement. However, an application of the rules of modern journalism points out that the three genealogies cannot all be true simultaneously. That, in itself is instructive to our understanding of the bible.

"Born then of the line of Nathan, the son of David, Levi begat Melchi and Panther: Panther begat Barpanther, so called. This Barpanther begat Joachim: Joachim begat the holy Mother of God. And of the line of Solomon, the son of David, Mathan had a wife of whom he begat Jacob. Now on the death of Mathan, Melchi, of the tribe of Nathan, the son of Levi and brother of Panther, married the wife of Mathan, Jacob's mother, of whom he begat Heli. Therefore Jacob and Heli became brothers on tile mother's side, Jacob being of the tribe of Solomon and Heli of the tribe of Nathan. Then Heli of the tribe of Nathan died childless, and Jacob his brother, of the tribe of Solomon, took his wife and raised up seed to his brother and begat Joseph. Joseph, therefore, is by nature the son of Jacob, of the line of Solomon, but by law he is the son of Heli of the line of Nathan."

-Saint John of Damascus

 

[pescador]

With the exception of your first and last sentences I am in full agreement. However, an application of the rules of modern journalism points out that the three genealogies cannot all be true simultaneously. That, in itself is instructive to our understanding of the bible.

The authors of the Bible's books wrote for specific audiences to illuminate their understanding of what happened and/or to explain doctrine. If you look at the various news media today they're all reporting "the facts" yet they often differ widely. The reason? They're writing to specific audiences, yet they may all be true.

If you watch what goes on in a modern courtroom, witnesses may give true accounts of what happened, yet they often differ. Their accounts can all be true simultaneously..

Apply these examples to the "books" of the Bible and you will understand that they can differ, yet all can be true.