Are there two kinds of Christians?

[Sir Wilshire]

I'll just say what I said to someone elsewhere.

Sadly, a corrective is need because of how modern American culture has influenced how people relate to God. A Christian has a relationship with Jesus, but it isn't a personal one. What I mean is that if by personal, you mean something intimate on the level of a human to human relationship. The relationship is firstly a human to divine relationship. Secondly, it is more akin to a patron-client relationship of the 1st century. God the Father is the patron, Jesus is the broker, and we are the clients. As my source linked below says, "The casualness with which we approach a relationship to the Almighty is decidedly far from what the ancients would have perceived; indeed, the client seldom if ever spoke to or saw the patron (here, the Father) and had even limited contact with the broker (here, Jesus);" Now, this isn't the distance of a deistic God, but Yahweh is more distant than he commonly is thought to be. This would explain well what you said here.

Hello! First off I want to say that I am seekingThat honestly confuses me because I have tried for the longest time to feel some sort of connection but cannot. Perhaps it's because I'm Agnostic?

I would also note that with you not being a Christian, you should feel a separation. Everyone is separated from God until they come to him. When we do come to him, we are entering into a covenant with them. We do this by putting our trust/loyalty in Jesus to save us from our sins and to live by his grace (unmerited favor). This is only done because Jesus has shown himself to be reliable. The Father proved that Jesus was reliable by raising him from the dead after Jesus said the Father would. This is the ultimate basis for being a Christian. If Jesus had not risen, there would be no Christianity. So if that's true, then that should be the decider.

-Source

 

[razeontherock]

Excellent post Sir! Let me just refine an idea, since it really is an unspeakable gift we're trying to talk about here:

The relationship is firstly a human to divine relationship. Now, this isn't the distance of a deistic God, but Yahweh is more distant than he commonly is thought to be.

Appropriate words for what you're inserting into the mix are "reverence" and fear. Yes, reverence can be thought of as 'reverential fear,' but it also means: FEAR. As in, " incline thine ear unto wisdom, [and] apply thine heart to understanding; Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, [and] liftest up thy voice for understanding; If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as [for] hid treasures; Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God." Proverbs 2:2-5

Humility is a HUGE key in approaching the Almighty. False humility = throw a pity party and see yourself at your worst.

True humility = get polished up at your best and compare yourself to G-d.

 

[Sir Wilshire]

Excellent post Sir! Let me just refine an idea, since it really is an unspeakable gift we're trying to talk about here:



Appropriate words for what you're inserting into the mix are "reverence" and fear. Yes, reverence can be thought of as 'reverential fear,' but it also means: FEAR. As in, " incline thine ear unto wisdom, [and] apply thine heart to understanding; Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, [and] liftest up thy voice for understanding; If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as [for] hid treasures; Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God." Proverbs 2:2-5

Humility is a HUGE key in approaching the Almighty. False humility = throw a pity party and see yourself at your worst.

True humility = get polished up at your best and compare yourself to G-d.

Yes, the loss of the view of seeing our relationship with God as a patronal one has led people to stop approaching Jesus with the proper reverence. One thing definitely to be gained from what I said is that we should revere God in the way the Bible says we should revere him. Another good thing I heard from someone was that while we can go boldly before the throne, we must remember we are going to a throne! One thing practically about this that sticks out to me about this is that you shouldn't pray if you're doing something you wouldn't do before human royalty. It really annoys me when people talk about praying in the bathroom.

Also, the idea of Jesus being our "buddy" or being "in love" with them. If you're trying to communicate passion, fine, but use another phrase. Our relationship with God is not a romantic one, but one of agape love (of which John speaks in 1 John as being the greatest love, not romantic love! If people can't become passionate about God based on his love displayed on the cross, but instead based on an imaginary romantic love, then they do not have biblical priorities). People who approach God in those ways are approaching him in anachronistic ways.

 

[Van]

Hi Losthope, sorry if this is redundant.

Are there two types of Christians? No, you are either a born again Christian, one of the wheat, or a professing Christian, one of the tares. Does doctrine matter, if you are a once saved always saved doctrine holder, does that make you a born again Christian? No. If you are a "you can lose your inheritance if you by your own power do not sustain your faith Christian, does that make you a born again Christian? No We have wheat and tares in both camps. It is God alone who credits our faith and puts us spiritually in Christ, and only those spiritually placed in Christ have an intimate relationship with Him. Jesus says depart from Me, I never knew you. He does not say, depart from Me because I knew you back when but you slipped out of my hand. In other words, even if a person believes they are saved forever, they may not be saved at all, and even if a person believes they may lose their salvation, they may be saved forever. God does not administer a doctrinal check before putting folks in Christ. His criteria are more basic, does the person love God with all his or her heart, do they trust fully in Christ alone as their Savior and Lord? Such a person will devote their life to serving Christ and will do their best to take care of "the least of our brothers or sisters in Christ." The lip-service Christians whose faith is dead will get the Matthew 7 treatment, no matter how accurately they understand the word of God.

Does "having a personal relationship" meaning we hear Christ's voice and can converse in prayer with Jesus? No. Having a personal relationship means we have been spiritually placed in Christ, thus we are in Christ and Christ is in us.

Yes some folks have the "warm fuzzies" and "feel" God's presence in their life, and lots of folks, especially TV evangelists say God told them this or that. But none of that has anything to do with having a "personal relationship" with God. Most of us experience times when we feel "close to God" our mountain top experiences if you will" but we can "feel" till the cows come home, that does not make are "calling and election" sure. How do we do that? 2 Peter 1:10 reads, "Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you "practice" these things, you will never stumble.

Well what are "these things?" "Applying all diligence, in you faith supply (1) moral excellence, (2) knowledge, (3) self control, (4) perseverance, (5) godliness, (6) brotherly kindness; and (7) love. For if these are yours and increasing they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the "true knowledge of the Lord Jesus" referring to that intimate relationship where you know Jesus and Jesus knows you.

May God Bless

 

[th1bill]

I'll just say what I said to someone elsewhere.

Sadly, a corrective is need because of how modern American culture has influenced how people relate to God. A Christian has a relationship with Jesus, but it isn't a personal one. What I mean is that if by personal, you mean something intimate on the level of a human to human relationship. The relationship is firstly a human to divine relationship. Secondly, it is more akin to a patron-client relationship of the 1st century. God the Father is the patron, Jesus is the broker, and we are the clients. As my source linked below says, "The casualness with which we approach a relationship to the Almighty is decidedly far from what the ancients would have perceived; indeed, the client seldom if ever spoke to or saw the patron (here, the Father) and had even limited contact with the broker (here, Jesus);" Now, this isn't the distance of a deistic God, but Yahweh is more distant than he commonly is thought to be. This would explain well what you said here.

Since your post is the next in line behind mine and you failed to note who and did not quote, I'm left to believe that you spoke to my post. I can tell you that you have read into my post a great deal of heresy that is not there making your rely nonsense.

 

[Sir Wilshire]

Since your post is the next in line behind mine and you failed to note who and did not quote, I'm left to believe that you spoke to my post. I can tell you that you have read into my post a great deal of heresy that is not there making your rely nonsense.

Nope, it was in response to the OP.

 

[razeontherock]

One thing definitely to be gained from what I said is that we should revere God in the way the Bible says we should revere him.

That's what worship is; approaching G-d, and it doesn't happen w/o reverence. Christianity is nothing other than G-d's revelation of how to do so.

John 4:24 "God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth."

If you want to talk about 2 types of people that attempt to approach G-d, look no further than Cain and Abel. Tremendous wisdom to be found there!

 

[Under Grace]

I see your point but not having spoken with those same people, I do not see the line in the sand. People I know exhibit both a trust in the Bible And personal relationship with G*d but with varying degrees on each. Speaking from my perspective, I exhibit both. I started perhaps with a childish fear of G*d. Later schooling helped me gain insight on G*d. Later I approached G*d differently in my prayers and do see a personal relationship. Hope this helps.

I remembered this too:
1) Knowledge without faith is like driving thru that wide gate and broad road that leads to destruction (Mt7:13)
2) Faith without knowledge is like a blind man driving an automobile.
3) Faith Together With Knowledge is like driving thru that narrow gate. :>

 

[Ih8s8n]

Are there two kinds of Christians?
Some Christians that I know or who have responded to me through Christian Forums tell me about their firm conviction in the Bible as the word of God. Their faith is based on trust. Other Christians tell me about their personal relationship with God. Their faith is based on experience, although they often also have a firm conviction in the Bible. My point is that some Christians base their faith solely on trust, while other Christians claim a personal relationship.

The difference between the two types of Christians has an effect on the way that they respond. After I made a commitment to Christ, some Christians told me about the joy of the relationship that I would soon experience, while other Christians told me to go on believing the promises of God and not to expect anything special to happen, telling me that expecting a personal relationship with God is asking for too much.

Those who claim a relationship cannot believe that anyone who has known God could ever give up their faith; once saved, always saved. Those whose faith is based on trust may suggest that a person who stops trusting God has lost their salvation.

I have great respect for the faith of both types of Christian. I have stressed some of the differences between the two, but there are also many similarities. However, I know which kind of a Christian I would like to be, and that is one with a personal relationship with God. I want to know God in a personal way. Those whose faith is based on trust tell me that I can know God by reading and believing in the Bible. I am not so sure; reading the Bible will help me to know about God, but will not help me to know God.

Of course, this is a simplification, and there are many other ways of thinking about the differences and similarities of Christians. But I have two questions. Do you agree with me in describing two kinds of Christians in this way? And am I right to be seeking a relationship with God, or should I trust in the Bible and expect no response from God?

losthope: Let me start by saying that I hope that your participation in this thread shows that you have not yet "lost hope" in attaining the type of relationship with God that you've described. Biblically speaking, you should DEFINITELY be expecting a response from God. What type of Father doesn't speak to/communicate with His own children? That so many professing Christians haven't heard from their own claimed Father (I'm not just referring to some people on this forum, but to many professing Christians in general whom I've encountered) speaks volumes to me about their own damaged relationships. What type of Husband (Jesus is the Bridegroom) doesn't communicate with His own wife (the church is the bride of Christ)? Sounds like a recipe for DIVORCE to me. Anyhow, as always, I'll seek to answer what I perceive to be genuine questions from God's perspective. In Jeremiah, we read:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

Through the prophet Jeremiah, the LORD spoke of a "new covenant" or New Testament that He desired with His people. This "new covenant" was NOT to be like the Old Covenant/Old Testament in which so many who claimed to be the people of God had no genuine relationship with Him. No, in this "new covenant", God desires for everyone, from the least to the greatest, to KNOW HIM. Sounds pretty "personal" to me. God gave the "clue" to this type of "knowing" relationship when He said:

"...for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

"For" means "because". In other words, it is ultimately INIQUITY/SIN that separates us from God. As I'm typing, I'm reminded of something that happened to me many years ago. At the time, I was a "new" (I'd only been saved for a few months or so) Christian and I was driving from New Jersey to Pennsylvania with some co-workers as we were headed for a whitewater rafting trip that a group of us had organized. It was an extremely cloudy day...dark clouds hovered over us and it seemed almost a certainty that our trip was going to be rained out. As I drove, I had this thought:

"I wish that the Sun would come out."

Innocent enough, wouldn't you say? To my surprise, as I simply thought on this for a brief moment, my thoughts were interrupted by God Who said:

"It would be much wiser to pray that the clouds be removed...the Sun is already out."

This reminds me of your questions. So many people, in essence, are wishing/praying that "the Sun/Son" (Jesus is referred to as "the daystar" in II Peter 1:19 and as "the bright and morning star" in Revelation 22:16) would come out INSTEAD OF dealing with the dark clouds (SIN) that "block" Him. In other words, if I might play with words for a moment, SIN works as sort of a "Sonblock". I would heartily suggest to you that there's no more powerful "Sonblock" known to man(-kind). I can honestly say that in my almost 22 years of being a Christian that I have never had trouble hearing from God. Here's the rub, though...

More often than not, God was/is NOT "whispering sweet love nothings in my ear". In other words, more often than not, God was/is speaking to me about areas in my life, "clouds" if you will, that needed/need to be dealt with/removed so that my relationship with Him wouldn't/won't be "blocked" or hindered. I've met MULTITUDES of professing Christians who don't want to "hear from God" in this manner. MULTITUDES. If we don't hearken to what God tells us to do, especially in the area of repentance, then why should God speak to us any further about anything else?

I'm not sure how familiar you are with scripture, but hopefully the following illustration will also help.

"And all the congregation of the children of Israel journeyed from the wilderness of Sin, after their journeys, according to the commandment of the LORD, and pitched in Rephidim: and there was no water for the people to drink. Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD? And the people thirsted there for water; and the people murmured against Moses, and said, Wherefore is this that thou hast brought us up out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and our cattle with thirst? And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, What shall I do unto this people? they be almost ready to stone me. And the LORD said unto Moses, Go on before the people, and take with thee of the elders of Israel; and thy rod, wherewith thou smotest the river, take in thine hand, and go. Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel." (Exodus 17:1-6)

The children of Israel were murmuring against the LORD and tempting Him by complaining about their seeming lack of water. What was God's response? God instructed Moses to "smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink". This "rock" is symbolic of Jesus Christ.

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted." (I Corinthians 10:1-6)

As I said, this "rock" was symbolic of "that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ". The "water" that flowed from this Rock was also referred to as "spiritual drink". In other words, as other scriptures certainly seem to indicate, this "water" was symbolic of the Holy Spirit.

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:37-39)

Symbolically, God desired to "quench the thirst" (Unfortunately, they only "thirsted" for NATURAL water and NOT "spiritual drink") of those who professed to be His people by "smiting the rock" or by CRUCIFYING CHRIST. Jesus is "the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world"(John 1:29). As I suggested before, it is INIQUITY/SIN which separates us from God. Those damn "clouds", if you will. These "clouds" need to be GENUINELY removed if we're ever to get our first taste of this "living water". Later on in their journey, the children of Israel once again thirsted for water. God's instructions to Moses were different this time:

"Then came the children of Israel, even the whole congregation, into the desert of Zin in the first month: and the people abode in Kadesh; and Miriam died there, and was buried there. And there was no water for the congregation: and they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron. And the people chode with Moses, and spake, saying, Would God that we had died when our brethren died before the LORD! And why have ye brought up the congregation of the LORD into this wilderness, that we and our cattle should die there? And wherefore have ye made us to come up out of Egypt, to bring us into this evil place? it is no place of seed, or of figs, or of vines, or of pomegranates: neither is there any water to drink. And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto them. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink. And Moses took the rod from before the LORD, as he commanded him. And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock? And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also. And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them." (Numbers 20:1-12)

Hear their complaint:

"...neither is there any water to drink."

Was this true? No, it was not. The "water", symbolic of God's "spiritual drink" or of the Holy Spirit, was readily available to those who would "speak to the rock" or speak to Christ. Initially, we satisfy our "thirst" (if it's really a "spiritual thirst" and not just our own sinful lusts or desires that we're seeking to satisfy) by "smiting the Rock" or by coming to God in genuine repentance of our sins through the crucified Christ. Once we have genuinely done this, future "drinks" are attained by "speaking to the Rock" or through a life of communion with Christ through prayer. God was angry with Moses and Aaron for not sanctifying Him in front of the people. So angry that He forbid either of them from stepping foot in the promised land. Why was He so angry? Because they broke the "type" by smiting the Rock twice. You see, "losthope", Christ will NOT be "crucified afresh" or "smitten twice" for anyone.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted of the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

From God's vantage point, "the Rock", which is Christ, will not be "smitten twice" or Christ will not be "crucified afresh". Do you REALLY want to KNOW GOD? Then come to Him in genuine repentance through Jesus Christ and you will find true "spiritual drink". From that point on, "speak to the Rock" or maintain a line of honest communication with Christ through prayer. As I suggested earlier, He's not going to be "whispering sweet love nothings in your ear" all day long. Rather, it's more probable that He's going to root all areas of sin out of your life so that those "clouds" don't come between you and Him. I've spoken plainly in this post and I realize that my response was rather lenghty, but eternity is A LOT LONGER than my post. May God grant you wisdom in truly seeking Him.

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

 

[Jerry Ray Walz Jr]

I don't think this is representative of Christianity at all.

There are lots of different denominations, and therefore, you'll have lots of different approaches to the Christian faith. It's too simplistic to say that there are two kinds of Christians, and those in group A also believe in C, while those in group B also believe in D.

Also, what you're calling trust and experience are not mutually exclusive. Like a relationship with any person, a relationship with God must have the key element of trust. The Bible is God's letter to people - we can either trust what's in that letter, and therefore trust him, or not. This is just like trusting what a friend, relative, or loved one writes to you.

Finally, there are times in everyone's walk with God that are emotional, and full of power. And likewise, there are dry times when it seems like God isn't listening. But everybody gets those. People will tell you what they're telling you based on where they're at, at the time. Also, some Christians haven't been Christians that long and have less experience in their walks with Christ to draw from; some newbies just haven't experienced the really hard times yet.

I was actually looking this up today just out of curiosity. The first thing I saw was that there was an immediate pointing to the difference being that of Spiritual or Carnal, then I noticed that what one would call a carnal Christian another would put out of context of what that definition was per scripture. So there was, almost right off the bat without explanation, a difference in the types of Christians. Some Christians come to the Lord through pure worship and Family values. Some come to the Lord out of great appreciation for their life changing, and some like me, had a significant spiritual experience that forever changed them. I have a deep faith in Him and what He/She can do, but I also have an understanding that I still walk in the World. So some might call me a Carnal Christian and others would call me a spiritual one. The point is, there are different types of Christians by their perspectives, but of course All of us want the same thing(s). So basically the differences lie in the perspectives and the way we communicate with each other.

 

[andreha]

That's a tough one.

I do suppose one could place Christians into a whole myriad of categories. But, in the end, there really only is one kind: Those who are not yet perfect examples of Jesus Christ.

Certainly, there are stages. Like when one first hears of Jesus from the mouths of others. And depending on how they portray Him, we get our own (often very limited) perception of Him. And more often than not, we start out being afraid of the Lord. This then is a major hurdle for us, which is where a lot of folks remain stuck at. But, as time goes by, and we study the Word, we start getting a glimpse of His love. And as the years go by, we are drawn closer to Him by the power of His Spirit, and at some point we turn our lives over to Him, and let Him rule. And as more years go by, we are drawn closer to the Spirit, and hopefully, before we die, learn to walk in full submission to the Spirit.

 

[chilehed]

Their faith is based on trust. Other Christians tell me about their personal relationship with God. Their faith is based on experience...

I don't understand the difficulty. Faith is trust based on experience, it's a decision to bind oneself to another who is known to you.

 

[EmethAlethia]

Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Joh 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

You ask which it is, Spirit or Truth. The answer is yes. Most people who believe themselves to be Christians know that their beliefs, and those of the people in their belief group, are as close to truth as it is possible to achieve. Mormon's Jehovah's Witnesses, Moslems, Baptists, fill in the group. Every person in their groups has everything they need to believe their views are the correct ones and that every opposing position is a lie from the pit of hell.

No, like Paul, I do not doubt the sincerity or zeal for God of any person in any group...

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

The question isn't whether or not every person in every group has a sincere love for God or zeal for Him in accordance with their beliefs. The question is, is that "zeal" in line with the truth. Zeal, in accordance with beliefs, experiences, signs and wonders ... only gets in the way, hardening us into false beliefs "IF" truth is not the complete focus, no matter what beliefs the truth destroys. If we miss the truth, all the zeal in the world will not save us. That said, God gives us exactly what we want. If we love our beliefs, feelings, experiences, the relationship we believe we have with God, God will grant us what we desire. Again, every person gets what they want. It was just as true of the believers Paul is writing to in this passage who did receive a love of the truth so as to be saved, as it will be of the lost in the end times.


2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Yes, if we habitually keep on doing what it takes to get to the truth, even if no one in any belief group likes how our doctrines differ from theirs, we will have our "Spirits" behind what we believe. Yes, we will have zeal... but the difference is the focus, the goal, the target ... Everyone has what they need to hold fast to their beliefs "as" truth. The question is, how does the Methodology they are using going to get them from erroneous beliefs to truth? What do those who love truth need to do differently than those who love what they believe to be truth? Make that your focus. Without truth it matters little what zeal we have for our beliefs.

That which we love least is always forced to conform to what we love most. Everyone either loves what they "want to believe" "as" truth or they love the truth. Truth or beliefs. Pick one. Pick truth and your beliefs change. Pick what you believe and all the truth in the world ... and in the bible, will be made to support your views or at least not negate them.