Are there limits to what healing we can receive?

Carl Emerson · Aug 29, 2023

SavedByGrace3 said:
People demand if healing is included in the atonement, then why are not all believers healthy?
It is a common question, easily answered, and has been answered. If we fail to see why Jesus endured the suffering He did, or if we refuse to see it and even go so far as to deny it... then the judgment of the curse of the law remains on us.
I asked the Lord how I should approach this when people are prayed for and also properly taught about healing and health.
His answer came immediately and was very direct.
"It is your job to pray and believe. That is what I told you to do. That is your business. It is my job to make it happen. That is my business. You take care of your business, and I will take care of mine."
I came away with the thought... "mind your own business." A very terse "mind your own business."
Why people may not receive is between them and the Lord. You don't get to stick your nose into that. There may be things that are going on in their lives that He is not going to share with you.
So we need to stick to our business. Believe, pray, and walk away.
In the case of this current discussion, it is time to walk away... I do not want to give people the opportunity to continue (dangerously) to refute and even deny His suffering.
By His Stripes You WERE healed.

The full atonement is realised at resurrection time.

The Cross is a timeless event hence the reference to 'where healed'

Strong in Him said:
It says, and means, that the suffering servant - Jesus - died for our sins.

Correct , what about the references in red to healing ???

4 However, it was our sicknesses that He Himself bore,
And our pains that He carried;
Yet we ourselves assumed that He had been afflicted,
Struck down by God, and humiliated.
5 But He was pierced for our offenses,
He was crushed for our wrongdoings;
The punishment for our well-being was laid upon Him,
And by His wounds we are healed.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 29, 2023

SavedByGrace3 said:
The wonderful thing about Peter's quotation of verse 5 is the tense:

Isaiah said, "By his wounds we ARE healed."
Peter said, "By his wounds we WERE healed."

This refutes, without question, the bogus argument that this healing is a promise for the future. WERE is past tense.
Healing indeed is included in the atonement. It is no longer something that maybe is or maybe not.
Jesus paid the price for our healing when He took the stripes, the wounds, and hanging on the tree.

Isaiah was standing prophetically at the foot of the cross, viewing Jesus with terrible wounds. He points at Jesus and says to all those around the cross, "Look, by His wounds we ARE healed."

Peter looking back at the cross, wrote to the believers of that day "Look, by His stripes we WERE healed."

Healing is for every believer since the cross. Let us not refute this truth for our own and our loved one's healing!

1 Peter 2:24
(ASV) who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree, that we, having died unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed.
(ISV) "He himself bore our sins" in his body on the tree, so that we might die to those sins and live righteously. "By his wounds you have been healed."
(KJV) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
(KJV+) WhoG3739 his own selfG848 bareG399 ourG2257 sinsG266 inG1722 his ownG848 bodyG4983 onG1909 theG3588 tree,G3586 thatG2443 we, being deadG581 to sins,G266 should liveG2198 unto righteousness:G1343 by whoseG3739 stripesG3468 ye were healed.G2390
(LEB) who himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we may die to sins and live to righteousness, by whose wounds you were healed.
(LITV) who "Himself carried up in His body our sins" onto the tree; that dying to sins, we might live to righteousness, of whom "by His wound you were healed."
(LSV) who Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, that having died to sins, we may live to righteousness; by whose stripes you were healed,
(NENT) who himself carried our *sins in his *body up to the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose bruise ye were healed.
(NET) He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we may cease from sinning and live for righteousness. By his wounds you were healed.
(RV) who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree, that we, having died unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed.
(Webster) Who himself bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live to righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed.
(Weymouth) The burden of our sins He Himself carried in His own body to the Cross and bore it there, so that we, having died so far as our sins are concerned, may live righteous lives. By His wounds yours have been healed.
(Williams) He bore our sins in His own body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to uprightness. By His wounds you have been healed,
(YLT) who our sins himself did bear in his body, upon the tree, that to the sins having died, to the righteousness we may live; by whose stripes ye were healed,

Amen.

The elephant in the room is that Christian believers get sick and die from illness and disease, and according to actual evidence, divine instant healing is very rare. This seems to contradict the interpretation of the Peter reference that it involves physical healing for Christian believers. If you are correct in your interpretation of 1 Peter 2:24, instant divine healing for a sick person should just be a prayer away and it should happen every time. So it is one thing to quote Scripture and quite another to see it regularly working out in practice.

SavedByGrace3 · Aug 29, 2023

Watchman1 said:
The elephant in the room is that Christian believers get sick and die from illness and disease, and according to actual evidence, divine instant healing is very rare. This seems to contradict the interpretation of the Peter reference that it involves physical healing for Christian believers. If you are correct in your interpretation of 1 Peter 2:24, instant divine healing for a sick person should just be a prayer away and it should happen every time. So it is one thing to quote Scripture and quite another to see it regularly working out in practice.

I choose to believe God regardless of the evidence. Paul said that "many of you are sick, weak, and die young." So you are correct in that assessment. Good to know that it was the same situation then as now. Par for the course.
This is basically an unbeliever's argument. The first imperative is to believe that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. That pleases God. I will tread along, doing my best to continue pleasing God.

jiminpa · Aug 29, 2023

Watchman1 said:
The elephant in the room is that Christian believers get sick and die from illness and disease, and according to actual evidence, divine instant healing is very rare. This seems to contradict the interpretation of the Peter reference that it involves physical healing for Christian believers. If you are correct in your interpretation of 1 Peter 2:24, instant divine healing for a sick person should just be a prayer away and it should happen every time. So it is one thing to quote Scripture and quite another to see it regularly working out in practice.

Which is true, scripture or sight? The Bible says that even Jesus was hindered by the unbelief around Him. If we are not seeing the truth of a scripture there is another scripture that is more applicable. We were healed by His stripes, that is scripture. Unbelief prevented even Jesus from performing miracles, that is scripture. There is your answer.

SavedByGrace3 · Aug 29, 2023

jiminpa said:
Which is true, scripture or sight? The Bible says that even Jesus was hindered by the unbelief around Him. If we are not seeing the truth of a scripture there is another scripture that is more applicable. We were healed by His stripes, that is scripture. Unbelief prevented even Jesus from performing miracles, that is scripture. There is your answer.

Correct. And it is a self-defeating approach.
"I am not healed because God does not heal everyone... so why am I not healed???"
They are telling on themselves. All it takes is one doubt, one denial of the word. Then, when they are sick, they say, "See, I told you."
I am not surprised people do not walk in health. One of my favorite preachers says he is surprised anyone is healed at all outside of the gifts.
Eventually, we see that you have no choice but to throw yourself on the overwhelming integrity of the Word. It says we were healed, so I am.
As I see it, many believers are defining God and His will according to the results of their wayward prayers. "I did not get healed because it must not be God's will that I be healed." Essentially they are saying their faith is solid and beyond scrutiny, so it must be God.

Guojing · Aug 29, 2023

jiminpa said:
My wife died of cancer, years ago now. She believed to her last that God was going to heal her, in this world. I had to make the decision to let her go. Humanly, it wouldn't have changed her time of death by more than a few seconds, and I am not carrying any guilt.

God's word still says what it says. God's word is still more reliable than my experience.

I am curious, why not just use Paul's teaching for the case of your wife?

Romans 8:18-25

2 Corinthians 4:16-18

ARBITER01 · Aug 29, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
The full atonement is realised at resurrection time.

The Cross is a timeless event hence the reference to 'where healed'

Correct , what about the references in red to healing ???

4 However, it was our sicknesses that He Himself bore,
And our pains that He carried;
Yet we ourselves assumed that He had been afflicted,
Struck down by God, and humiliated.
5 But He was pierced for our offenses,
He was crushed for our wrongdoings;
The punishment for our well-being was laid upon Him,
And by His wounds we are healed.

That section of scripture deals with our regeneration, as Peter taught,...

1Pe 2:24 who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree, that we, having died unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were going astray like sheep; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Our born again experience is a healing according to scripture.

I know a lot of folks have tied that section of scripture in Isaiah with bodily healing over the years, but it really has no reference to it, as Peter taught.

Guojing · Aug 29, 2023

Strong in Him said:
Jesus did not, ever, say that his blood was being shed for people's sickness. Nor that he had come to give his life so that believers might be healthy. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29; not sickness or headaches.

The main problem I see, with this statement, is that under the Law, God literally promised Israel that if they obey him, they will never fall sick (Deuteronomy 7:15, Exodus 15:26)

Under the promised kingdom of heaven on Earth, no one in Israel will be maim or sick too (Isaiah 33:24, Psalms 103:1-5.

Israel broke their covenant of Law that was given at Mount Sinai. They killed or ignored all the prophets that God repeatedly sent to them when they were separated into 2 kingdoms and went into captivity under Babylon, and then under Persia. (Matthew 21:33-46; Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-19).

Thus, at the time of Jesus's first coming to Israel, many people in Israel are sick, demon possessed, precisely because they have forsaken that Law covenant. (Luke 13:11, Acts 3:2)

Jesus thus healed all of them to give them a taste of what life in that kingdom would be. Acts 10:38 is an especially beautiful summary by Peter to show that

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Based on that, Isaiah 53:5 and Matthew 8:17 can be interpreted as promises of physical healing, but it is still true that those promises are not for us today.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 29, 2023

SavedByGrace3 said:
I choose to believe God regardless of the evidence. Paul said that "many of you are sick, weak, and die young." So you are correct in that assessment. Good to know that it was the same situation then as now. Par for the course.
This is basically an unbeliever's argument. The first imperative is to believe that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. That pleases God. I will tread along, doing my best to continue pleasing God.

You have that in common with Evolutionists. They believe in it regardless of the evidence or lack of it.

For example, this is what Isaac Asimov says:

I have faith and belief myself. I believe that the universe is comprehensible within the bounds of natural law and that the human brain can discover those natural laws and comprehend the universe. I believe that nothing beyond those natural laws is needed. I have no evidence for this. It is simply what I have faith in and what I believe."

No one can say that a person is healed without actual observable evidence. In the case of heart disease or cancer, xrays before and after would prove the healing. The person being able to see or hear, or able to get up and walk normally would be observable evidence of instant healing.

The context of 1 Peter 2:24 is able Jesus dying on the Cross for our sins and not able instant divine healing of the body.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 29, 2023

Guojing said:
The main problem I see, with this statement, is that under the Law, God literally promised Israel that if they obey him, they will never fall sick (Deuteronomy 7:15, Exodus 15:26)

Under the promised kingdom of heaven on Earth, no one in Israel will be maim or sick too (Isaiah 33:24, Psalms 103:1-5.

Israel broke their covenant of Law that was given at Mount Sinai. They killed or ignored all the prophets that God repeatedly sent to them when they were separated into 2 kingdoms and went into captivity under Babylon, and then under Persia. (Matthew 21:33-46; Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-19).

Thus, at the time of Jesus's first coming to Israel, many people in Israel are sick, demon possessed, precisely because they have forsaken that Law covenant.

Jesus thus healed all of them to give them a taste of what life in that kingdom would be. Acts 10:38 is an especially beautiful summary by Peter to show that

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Based on that, Isaiah 53:5 and Matthew 8:17 can be interpreted as promises of physical healing, but it is still true that those promises are not for us today.

If the promises were for us today, we will be seeing instant divine healing of sick people on a regular basis throughout our churches.

SavedByGrace3 · Aug 29, 2023

Watchman1 said:
If the promises were for us today, we will be seeing instant divine healing of sick people on a regular basis throughout our churches.

Not so. It did not happen in the Corinthian church, and it should not surprise us that it is not happening in our day's church.
Things have not changed since then. People still do not discern the Lord's body, and because of that, they are sick, weak, and die young.

Guojing · Aug 29, 2023

Watchman1 said:
If the promises were for us today, we will be seeing instant divine healing of sick people on a regular basis throughout our churches.

or Paul, as our apostle, won't bother telling us Romans 8:18-25 and 2 Corinthians 4:16-18. =)

Notice he never said once "By his stripes we are healed"?

SavedByGrace3 · Aug 29, 2023

Watchman1 said:
You have that in common with Evolutionists. They believe in it regardless of the evidence or lack of it.

For example, this is what Isaac Asimov says:

I have faith and belief myself. I believe that the universe is comprehensible within the bounds of natural law and that the human brain can discover those natural laws and comprehend the universe. I believe that nothing beyond those natural laws is needed. I have no evidence for this. It is simply what I have faith in and what I believe."

No one can say that a person is healed without actual observable evidence. In the case of heart disease or cancer, xrays before and after would prove the healing. The person being able to see or hear, or able to get up and walk normally would be observable evidence of instant healing.

The context of 1 Peter 2:24 is able Jesus dying on the Cross for our sins and not able instant divine healing of the body.

Posted this elsewhere. Pretty much refutes this concept.
A few points to prove that "by His stripes ye were healed" are, in fact, speaking about physical healing and not "spiritual healing."

1. There is no such thing as "spiritual healing" in the gospel. It is an invention borrowed from new-age teachings which teach this heresy at length. Nowhere in the NT do we find anything about "spiritual healing."

2. We are not spiritually healed. We are born again. Jesus and the apostles taught, "ye must be born again." Not spiritually healed.

3. We are all dead in Adam. Both physically and spiritually. And it is an incurable wickedness that cannot be healed.

Jeremiah 17:9 LITV
9. The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is incurable; who can know it?

Dead things cannot be healed. They have to be raised from the dead. Even then, our spirits were not even "raised from the dead," they were eliminated and replaced by the spirit of Christ. We now possess the spirit of Christ. Not some patched-up, hosed-down version of our old Adamic man. He is gone.

4. 1 Peter 2:24 is a quote from a passage in Isaiah 53.
Isaiah 53:4-5 KJV
4. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Verse 4 is quoted in Matt 8:17. It proves beyond any doubt that these verses in Isa 53 are indeed talking about physical healing:
Matthew 8:16-17 KJV
16. When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
17. That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

The golden rule of interpreting the Bible is to take it literally whenever possible. And it most certainly is literal here.
By His Stripes we WERE healed.
Also, notice that the verse in Isaiah says, "By his stripes you are healed."
In Peter, it is past tense "By his stripes you WERE healed."
More proof that healing is an accomplished fact! Healing, like everything else, is included in the atonement. Every promise. Every blessing, whether physical or spiritual, has been provided for us in the gospel! It has all been made good in the word of Jesus. In HIM!

jiminpa · Aug 29, 2023

Watchman1 said:
You have that in common with Evolutionists. They believe in it regardless of the evidence or lack of it.

For example, this is what Isaac Asimov says:

I have faith and belief myself. I believe that the universe is comprehensible within the bounds of natural law and that the human brain can discover those natural laws and comprehend the universe. I believe that nothing beyond those natural laws is needed. I have no evidence for this. It is simply what I have faith in and what I believe."

No one can say that a person is healed without actual observable evidence. In the case of heart disease or cancer, xrays before and after would prove the healing. The person being able to see or hear, or able to get up and walk normally would be observable evidence of instant healing.

The context of 1 Peter 2:24 is able Jesus dying on the Cross for our sins and not able instant divine healing of the body.

So, you are saying that the Bible is only true when it agrees with our understanding. Notice that I'm not asking a question. Your posts have become consistent.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 29, 2023

SavedByGrace3 said:
Not so. It did not happen in the Corinthian church, and it should not surprise us that it is not happening in our day's church.
Things have not changed since then. People still do not discern the Lord's body, and because of that, they are sick, weak, and die young.

That was just one church out of all the others. Paul did not say the same about the others, so it can be assumed that they didn't have the same problem as the Corinthians. But you are correct about the majority of modern churches. In actual fact, many modern churches are worse off than the Corinthians!

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 29, 2023

jiminpa said:
So, you are saying that the Bible is only true when it agrees with our understanding. Notice that I'm not asking a question. Your posts have become consistent.

Any student of Apologetics can show that the truth of the Bible can be totally proved by observable, archeological and historical evidence. A genuinely converted believer shows through the total transformation that it has happened through his faith in Christ. The life, death, and resurrection of Christ is firmly supported by evidence. A true prophet is shown through his prophecies pointing to Christ and his predictions coming true. In many cases, the gift of tongues has been verified by the person speaking in an understandable language, heard by a native speaker of that language, without any trace of an accent, although the tongues speaker has never learned the language.

So, a person saying he has the gift of healing, proves it by seeing people healed instantly as the result of the laying on of hands. In the case of heart disease, cancer, or arthritis, it is proved by medical evidence. But if nothing happens every time that person lays hands on a sick person, it shows that he doesn't have the gift of healing regardless of what his claims are, or how often he quotes Scripture. A church that claims divine healing in its services proves by observable or medical evidence that people actually do get healed on a regular basis. If that doesn't happen, the claims are false.

So just believing something to make it so, is not Gospel faith, but blind faith without evidential confirmation.

mourningdove~ · Aug 30, 2023

Strong in Him said:
Job said, "though he slay me, I will trust him".

God has richly blessed you, with the things He has revealed to you.
Our God is an Awesome God.

Strong in Him · Aug 30, 2023

SavedByGrace3 said:
Again, a very simple and scriptural answer.
We walk by faith and not by sight. We stand on the Word of God to the end. That pleases God. Let God be true and (the testimony) every man a liar. If you stand by His word and not your worldly testimony, you will sometimes appear to be a liar. Nobody is saying that Christians will always receive healing. The point is, what are you believing in your heart all the while? Are you standing on His word, testifying of His works, and glorifying Him regardless? Or are you turning against Him and His word and reverting back to the testimony of the flesh? Stand on His word till the end. With your dying breath, proclaim His word. "I am healed by the stripes of Jesus. "He took upon Himself my weaknesses and bore my sicknesses." You may not be experiencing the healing that is yours,

I'm not sure that you're reading my posts fully.

I have been healed from M.E. - on April 23rd 2009, if you want to know. I no longer have it, nor any symptoms. I am not ill.
For all of the 18 years that I had M.E, I did not ever - as far as I know - proclaim "I am healed by the stripes of Jesus".
Yet God DID heal me - despite some people on these forums trying to tell me that I had no faith and would not receive from him.

What I am saying is that it was not my words, the adoption of a doctrine or anything that I did/didn't believe that brought about my healing. GOD healed me - full stop.

Carl Emerson · Aug 30, 2023

My mum as a widow in the country was woken at night with the words 'well done good and faithful servant' she was then bodily shaken in bed by God's power and healed of a stomach condition she had for 28 years after giving birth to me.

This had nothing to do with faith, it was a sovereign act of God's love.

Strong in Him · Aug 30, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
Correct , what about the references in red to healing ???

4 However, it was our sicknesses that He Himself bore,
And our pains that He carried;

In context, it means the pain of sin and spiritual sickness.
The words "physical sickness/ailments" are not there. We read/hear "healing" and conclude that it means full physical health; the removal of physical illness.
The passage doesn't say that.

Are there limits to what healing we can receive?

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