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Are there different definitions of the "once saved, always saved" doctrine?

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Is Paul, who was chosen by Jesus and was inspired by God to write over 70% of the epistles, in hell? In Romans 7:14 Paul is inspired to share his struggle with his "sin nature". Like us, Paul hated his sins, but hell? Claiming to be sinless is claiming deity and that's a sin! Only Christ Jesus was sinless my friend. We do our very best...

In Defending the true meaning of Romans 7:

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

A. In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

B. In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

C. In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Source:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25

D. Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

However, if you are still in doubt, there are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).
 
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"And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?" (Job 1:8).
Now, you probably are thinking this means something else. But it doesn't. It means what it says. Just read and believe your Bible. But your not really doing that. You are looking to outside things of this world to influence your thinking within the faith.
Until God showed him what real righteousness in Him is. It was not his integrity that was right before God and God allowed satan had to show him that. human beings are not meant to be human doings. Rightly dividing the word is the work that Christ has set before us.
 
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Until God showed him what real righteousness in Him is. It was not his integrity that was right before God and God allowed satan had to show him that. human beings are not meant to be human doings. Rightly dividing the word is the work that Christ has set before us.

Actually... no. That is not true.
Job only faultered under the intense pressure of his trial and questioned God about how it was unfair of the Lord to punish him in such a way. Job did not commit a sin that led unto spiritual death (i.e. the Second Death, or the Lake of Fire). Job did not go out and get drunk when he lost his children. Job did not sleep with the next door neighbor's wife when his own wife condemned him for continuing to worship God as he lost almost everything dear to him. In the end, Job was proven faithful in his trial and he was rewarded with even more of what he had lost.

I mean, if what you say is true, then we should all be like Enoch and translated, right?
Why do you think Enoch was translated? Because he had a super belief and yet he also sinned? Come on now. Enoch walked with God. It was Enoch's holy life before God that pleased God whereby God took him home without death. Then there is the 144,000. They were found without fault before the throne of God and the context talks about their deeds and not some kind of "I can sin and also believe" type faith. Such is utter non sense to suggest otherwise. Read Revelation 14:3-5.
 
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Actually... no. That is not true.
Job only faultered under the intense pressure of his trial and questioned God about how it was unfair of the Lord to punish him in such a way. Job did not commit a sin that led unto spiritual death (i.e. the Second Death, or the Lake of Fire). Job did not go out and get drunk when he lost his children. Job did not sleep with the next door neighbor's wife when his own wife condemned him for continuing to worship God as he lost almost everything dear to him. In the end, Job was proven faithful in his trial and he was rewarded with even more of what he had lost.

I mean, if what you say is true, then we should all be like Enoch and translated, right?
Why do you think Enoch was translated? Because he had a super belief and yet he also sinned? Come on now. Enoch walked with God. It was Enoch's holy life before God that pleased God whereby God took him home without death. Then there is the 144,000. They were found without fault before the throne of God and the context talks about their deeds and not some kind of "I can sin and also believe" type faith. Such is utter non sense to suggest otherwise. Read Revelation 14:3-5.
Sifted by satan that Jesus prayed Peter would fare well thru is just a lessened case of what Job experienced. Perhaps because of the integrity God knew that they could not fail.
Amos 9:9
For I will command And shake the house of Israel among all the nations, As grain is shaken in the sieve; Yet a kernel will not fall to the ground.
 
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Sifted by satan that Jesus prayed Peter would fare well thru is just a lessened case of what Job experienced. Perhaps because of the integrity God knew that they could not fail.
Amos 9:9
For I will command And shake the house of Israel among all the nations, As grain is shaken in the sieve; Yet a kernel will not fall to the ground.

Job is not an example of a model type for every self proclaiming believer in Jesus Christ. Most believers today justify a sin and still be saved type belief. God would not say the words he did about Job in the beginning of the book of Job if that was the case.
 
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Job is not an example of a model type for every self proclaiming believer in Jesus Christ. Most believers today justify a sin and still be saved type belief. God would not say the words he did about Job in the beginning of the book of Job if that was the case.
If Job is the first book written as I believe it is then it was the first Word spoken to mankind. In that is huge significance. But you believe what you will.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Yep, your right, I have no evidence. Do you think that there are very many that turn from their faith, in comparison to those that don't? Or do you think that I am accurate in saying that it is probably "tiny percentages" ?

Yes, I honestly believe many more than not, walk away from it. And when I say walk away, I mean those who do it consciously as well as those who do so by action or inaction and may still claim salvation or live in denial.

This may or may not be proof positive of percentages, but it does possibly give a hint that many more don't make it than do, as in, "these didn't make it, these didn't make it, not these nor these, but these did"....see what I mean. 4 sets didn't, 1 did. Make of that what you will, but it conveys something to me about how often our salvation goes down the tubes. But whether you think that says a thing about percentages or not, and it's possible it does not, it definitely conveys people lose salvation/don't make it, of that I have no doubt.

Matthew 13King James Version (KJV)
13 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.

2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


However, losing something is a totally different application of this term. The concept of being lost is different than "I lost my car keys".
Don't you agree?

That was the exact point I was making, so yes, I do.

Well, I have no right to say what is in their heart. Only Christ knows a mans heart. Or, are you omniscient and know what the trials and temptations are that these people face?

Of course I'm not, and I should probably touch on that, not just because you said it, but because it's a common issue that in my view is misunderstood, as well as over used. People have a tendancy to act like it's taboo and to call it "judging" when we start even touching on those that are saved and those that are not.

"Know them by their fruits" means something, an one thing it does not mean is that we cannot discern what is going on with people at the present time, at least in general. Sure God knows our heart, and these people could change, anything can happen, but that doesn't change what our fruits show we are at any given time.

It's not about judgment, but about, for example "Hey, you're living in adultery fornication, keep it up and you'll have problems.". Just a simple fact and no one will be struck by lightening for saying it. Actually, to not tell someone that could very well be the worse thing we can do. But at the very least we are allowed to "Know them by their fruits"... even told to do so. But, oh my! let's not dare say what we know, that's just bad. :) Why do people say it's bad? because people don't like being told they're going to hell, especially those in denial, it makes them furious, and sometimes furious enough to get their head handed to them on a silver platter, ask JTB. :)

On the surface, if I someone doing these things, I would doubt that they were a child of God. That is true.

However, I do know a homosexual that is a true believer, saved as I am, but struggles with a sexual temptation beyond my comprehension, as a straight guy.

Point is...... you have no right to say "he is saved" or "he is not saved"... absolutely no right.

If he is living in sin as a homosexual, (you were vague about your friend) it has nothing to do with "rights", it's just as fact. Yet people will get mad as I mentioned earlier, they say "what makes you think you have the right to judge ME!" if they are in denial and one so much as brushes up against the subject of hell. That's just a way to keep their denial and blame anyone who tries to tell them differently, as opposed to facing reality.

The bible tells us what will get us into hell, and if we do what will get us into hell, we go to hell if we don't take care of business and repent in time, just that simple, and shooting the messenger won't change that. Not making, or not wanting/allowing someone to make the accusation, won't make the fact go away. Sometimes we need to be reminded of the facts, straight up, lest we do those in denial no favor at all, but an injustice for not trying.

And briefly, the "You don't know what's in their heart" is another common tool of denial that I won't get into due to this already being so lengthy it's beyond the attention span of many.
 
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SBC

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Obviously it’s hard to understand something that’s not biblical. And if it is biblical To you give me scripture that you believe supports your ideology .

ONCE is the key word.

ONCE saving occurs, the saving of a soul is not reversed for one to become UNsaved.
Period!

Jesus gave His Blood that All could be forgiven.
Jesus gave His Body that All body's could be sanctified.

Now go to the Scriptures that tell you WHY a man Must be Forgiven And must be justified.

Now go to the Scriptures that tell you HOW a
A man submits "his life" TO the Lord To BECOME Saved.

Any mans submission HAS a protocol!

The protocol IS the WAY the HOW.

The WAY requires;
The man TO;
1) call ON the Lord
2) speak TO the Lord
3) TO speak TO the Lord FROM
4) TRUE thoughts
5) FROM the mans HEART
6) of the man PROFESSING
7) TRUE BELIEF in The WORD of God

In short -
Telling another is not telling the Lord.
Telling FROM the Mind is not telling from the Heart.
Attending church is not becoming Saved.
Hearing the Word of God is not becoming Saved.
Picking and choosing Parts of the Word of God
And denying other parts is not becoming Saved.

Becoming Saved IS the man telling the Lord Himself From the mans Heart that the man Truly BELIEVES IN The Word of God.

And FOR a man giving such a TRUE Confession TO the Lord -
The Lord SHALL Forgive the man FOR having NOT BELIEVED - which Disbelief IS a Sin Against God.
And forgiveness for when the man was in DISBELIEF corrupting his Body, soul, spirit Because of his DISBELIEF.

Then God kills that body
And God restores that soul
And God births that man a NEW Spirit
FROM "HIS" Seed.

ONCE that is accomplished in a man...
That man IS forerver reconciled unTO God.
That man IS Born OF God.
That man HAS overcome this World.
That man IS FREED From Sin.
That man can Sin No More.
1 John 3:9

God Bless,
SBC
 
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If Job is the first book written as I believe it is then it was the first Word spoken to mankind. In that is huge significance. But you believe what you will.

I don't see how Job being the first written scroll (Book) within the Holy Scriptures helps your case here, though. Just because it is the first written scroll within God's Word does not mean we can sin and still be saved.
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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ONCE is the key word.

ONCE saving occurs, the saving of a soul is not reversed for one to become UNsaved.
Period!

Jesus gave His Blood that All could be forgiven.
Jesus gave His Body that All body's could be sanctified.

Now go to the Scriptures that tell you WHY a man Must be Forgiven And must be justified.

Now go to the Scriptures that tell you HOW a
A man submits "his life" TO the Lord To BECOME Saved.

Any mans submission HAS a protocol!

The protocol IS the WAY the HOW.

The WAY requires;
The man TO;
1) call ON the Lord
2) speak TO the Lord
3) TO speak TO the Lord FROM
4) TRUE thoughts
5) FROM the mans HEART
6) of the man PROFESSING
7) TRUE BELIEF in The WORD of God

In short -
Telling another is not telling the Lord.
Telling FROM the Mind is not telling from the Heart.
Attending church is not becoming Saved.
Hearing the Word of God is not becoming Saved.
Picking and choosing Parts of the Word of God
And denying other parts is not becoming Saved.

Becoming Saved IS the man telling the Lord Himself From the mans Heart that the man Truly BELIEVES IN The Word of God.

And FOR a man giving such a TRUE Confession TO the Lord -
The Lord SHALL Forgive the man FOR having NOT BELIEVED - which Disbelief IS a Sin Against God.
And forgiveness for when the man was in DISBELIEF corrupting his Body, soul, spirit Because of his DISBELIEF.

Then God kills that body
And God restores that soul
And God births that man a NEW Spirit
FROM "HIS" Seed.

ONCE that is accomplished in a man...
That man IS forerver reconciled unTO God.
That man IS Born OF God.
That man HAS overcome this World.
That man IS FREED From Sin.
That man can Sin No More.
1 John 3:9

God Bless,
SBC
1 John 3:9 is only refering to continuous sin 1 John 3:9 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. I also know this because of 1 John 2:1 1 John 2:1 1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
 
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I don't see how Job being the first written scroll (Book) within the Holy Scriptures helps your case here, though. Just because it is the first written scroll within God's Word does not mean we can sin and still be saved.
Well I didn't see anything about your case about Enoch very convincing either.
 
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SBC

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I've posted what was in #107 again, but added also the full passage quote this time, and also in another translation, and I think that should help. See below in post #219, which also has some extra explanation added.

I was asking you specifically Peter's Hugh Condemnation act.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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JacksBratt

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Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God).

This statement, I absolutely agree with.

I don't know what place a person, with salvation, would have to be in, in their head, to do this sort of thing. But, it is possible.

Otherwise, I would believe (my opinion) that they were never actually saved.

I believe that the number of people, in all of history, who were actually and sincerely saved... and then turned from Christ, to the extent that Christ turned His back on them and would deny them salvation....is a very small number....

Do you agree?

I also believe that there are many who have completely and legitimately accepted salvation from Christ and been given salvation..........yet, in their lives, have strayed and been drawn away from what onlookers would call a Christian walk......only to be accepted, on their passing, into paradise due to and only to the shed blood of their savior.
 
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JacksBratt

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But you define the term "repentance" differently.
Jesus definied repentance for us by pointing us to Jonah 3:6-10 in Matthew 12:41. For Jesus essentially said the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. In Jonah chapter 3 we learn that the King of the Ninevites had said to the people to:

(a) Cry out to God (and),
(b) Turn from their evil and wicked ways.
(See Jonah 3:6-9 cf. Matthew 12:41).​

We then learn that God had seen that they had turned from their wicked and evil ways is when wrath or judgment was averted, too. So it was not an empty profession of paying lip service. They actually were truly sorry over their sins by making good on their prayer towards God in turning from their evil ways.

Jesus said repent or you will perish (Luke 13:3).

Also, as for the false belief alone type salvation: Well, the Bible says, even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).
I believe that an unsaved sinner must repent of their sins, in requesting salvation.. just as a person who is saved and has salvation already, may need to repent from sins.

One is doing it as part of acceptance of the fact they are a sinner and need Christs free gift of salvation.

The other is repenting, not for salvation as they already have that, but for re connection with Christ.

As I have said before, anyone who says that they do not continue to sin after receiving salvation, is ignorant of their sins or lying.

We should be repenting from these sins and continue to make each step a closer walk with Christ.
 
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Arthur B Via

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In Defending the true meaning of Romans 7:

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

A. In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

B. In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

C. In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Source:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25

D. Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

However, if you are still in doubt, there are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).
Yes, I honestly believe many more than not, walk away from it. And when I say walk away, I mean those who do it consciously as well as those who do so by action or inaction and may still claim salvation or live in denial.

This may or may not be proof positive of percentages, but it does possibly give a hint that many more don't make it than do, as in, "these didn't make it, these didn't make it, not these nor these, but these did"....see what I mean. 4 sets didn't, 1 did. Make of that what you will, but it conveys something to me about how often our salvation goes down the tubes. But whether you think that says a thing about percentages or not, and it's possible it does not, it definitely conveys people lose salvation/don't make it, of that I have no doubt.

Matthew 13King James Version (KJV)
13 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.

2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.




That was the exact point I was making, so yes, I do.



Of course I'm not, and I should probably touch on that, not just because you said it, but because it's a common issue that in my view is misunderstood, as well as over used. People have a tendancy to act like it's taboo and to call it "judging" when we start even touching on those that are saved and those that are not.

"Know them by their fruits" means something, an one thing it does not mean is that we cannot discern what is going on with people at the present time, at least in general. Sure God knows our heart, and these people could change, anything can happen, but that doesn't change what our fruits show we are at any given time.

It's not about judgment, but about, for example "Hey, you're living in adultery fornication, keep it up and you'll have problems.". Just a simple fact and no one will be struck by lightening for saying it. Actually, to not tell someone that could very well be the worse thing we can do. But at the very least we are allowed to "Know them by their fruits"... even told to do so. But, oh my! let's not dare say what we know, that's just bad. :) Why do people say it's bad? because people don't like being told they're going to hell, especially those in denial, it makes them furious, and sometimes furious enough to get their head handed to them on a silver platter, ask JTB. :)



If he is living in sin as a homosexual, (you were vague about your friend) it has nothing to do with "rights", it's just as fact. Yet people will get mad as I mentioned earlier, they say "what makes you think you have the right to judge ME!" if they are in denial and one so much as brushes up against the subject of hell. That's just a way to keep their denial and blame anyone who tries to tell them differently, as opposed to facing reality.

The bible tells us what will get us into hell, and if we do what will get us into hell, we go to hell if we don't take care of business and repent in time, just that simple, and shooting the messenger won't change that. Not making, or not wanting/allowing someone to make the accusation, won't make the fact go away. Sometimes we need to be reminded of the facts, straight up, lest we do those in denial no favor at all, but an injustice for not trying.

And briefly, the "You don't know what's in their heart" is another common tool of denial that I won't get into due to this already being so lengthy it's beyond the attention span of many.

Why would God inspire Paul to write "this I keep on doing" in Romans 7:14? Doesn't sound like past tense or before he knew Jesus, but very much like the struggle with sin we all have today. If anyone has conquered sin...We need to talk please...☺
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God).
I think that is only possible by those who have "trampled underfoot the Son of God and has considered the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing and has insulted the Spirit of grace"
 
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Kenny'sID

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:14? Doesn't sound like past tense or before he knew Jesus, but very much like the struggle with sin we all have today. If anyone has conquered sin...We need to talk please...☺

Yes we struggle with sin, and no, no one has conquered sin.

Did someone suggest otherwise? Or did you mean something else? You quoted two full posts so hard to say what you disagree with, if anything.
 
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Halbhh

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I was asking you specifically Peter's Hugh Condemnation act.

God Bless,
SBC

Tower of Babel! I thought you asked about Galatians 2:11 where Paul wrote Peter "stood condemned" (in most translations), and about that deep question. That's all in post #219 above. I don't know about Peter Hugh Condemnation act. Funny misunderstanding.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Yes we struggle with sin, and no, no one has conquered sin.
Clarify this please. (I realize this isn't fully what you mean, and others will think they cannot overcome the world nor overcome sin unless they also know what God's Word Says About This).
 
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