Are there different definitions of the "once saved, always saved" doctrine?

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

How would you in your opinion define "once saved, always saved"? Is it true or is it false doctrine? Would "wilful sinning" have any connection to this said doctrine"? How also about works or obedience? What roles if any would that doctrine play in how we will end up in eternity?

Once saved always saved=there's no way you can ever lose your salvation... no matter what you do you're saved.

It's false doctrine


I think this teaching has a loophole of allowing for willful sinning considering the fact that you stay saved no matter what.

 

[SeventyOne]

I think this teaching has a loophole of allowing for willful sinning considering the fact that you stay saved no matter what.

Actually, it's just a realization that we are not saved by our works and that Christ's own work on the cross was sufficient to save us. As Paul states, our legal debt was nailed to the cross and paid in full.

On the flip side, I think the teaching that one can lose their salvation provides a loophole for those who wish to play a role in their own salvation. In other words, "I thank you Lord that I'm not like that sinner over there. I do good things. I didn't lie or cheat on my spouse. I did good enough today to keep myself saved for you. Ain't I great?"

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Actually, it's just a realization that we are not saved by our works and that Christ's own work on the cross was sufficient to save us. As Paul states, our legal debt was nailed to the cross and paid in full.

On the flip side, I think the teaching that one can lose their salvation provides a loophole for those who wish to play a role in their own salvation. In other words, "I thank you Lord that I'm not like that sinner over there. I do good things. I didn't lie or cheat on my spouse. I did good enough today to keep myself saved for you. Ain't I great?"

1. Your response doesn't negate the loophole. It still remains there....if one technically is saved for life then couldn't they abuse the "system". I mean if I had the option to enjoy the pleasures of sin and stay saved I honestly think I would do it or succumb to it at least. Glad it doesn't work like that though. Glad i'm motivated to resit in order to keep walking with God.

Also Paul said our debt is paid full...but the bible also says we must work our own salvation... For example the bible says JESUS died for our infirmities and by his blood we are healed.....but the bible says also that the sick have to say they are healed.

God wants us to put on...what he died for...it's not automatic. If that was the case acts 2:38 wouldn't have even been in the bible.




2. I want scripture for your response....I'm trying to see what you're argument is here.


3. I disagree with your claim that anyone who believes in losing salvation automatically gets prideful and puts down others. Teaching that one can lose their salvation (this is biblical btw i'll post one of the many scriptures in a sec), causes them to be more serious and read their word more becuase they realize they have to study, pray, get refillings of the HOly Ghost as they did in acts 4...to stay with God. As a result they will read scriptures that teach about being humble and how pride leads to destruction...so there's no loophole.

In fact this eliminates the whole problem your proposal presents... abuse of the "system".

1 Timothy 4:1King James Version (KJV)
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


Matthew 24:13King James Version (KJV)
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Comment: if you read this you recognize that . this means if I don't endure or don't hang on i'm not saved.


If I for example say if you endure the toughness of this training camp you'll make the military for example....

Obviously
i'm saying if you don't endure you're not gonna make it.

To say that one must endure...to reach...or obtain something...suggest that if they don't endure...they can't reach..or obtain that.

 

[SeventyOne]

1. Your response doesn't negate the loophole. It still remains there....if one technically is saved for life then couldn't they abuse the "system". I mean if I had the option to enjoy the pleasures of sin and stay saved I honestly think I would do it or succumb to it at least. Glad it doesn't work like that though. Glad i'm motivated to resit in order to keep walking with God.

Also Paul said our debt is paid full...but the bible also says we must work our own salvation... For example the bible says JESUS died for our infirmities and by his blood we are healed.....but the bible says also that the sick have to say they are healed.

God wants us to put on...what he died for...it's not automatic. If that was the case acts 2:38 wouldn't have even been in the bible.

There is no loop hole. That's just an excuse those who want to help save themselves make up. One sin or 10,000 sins, makes no difference. Our keeping of the law doesn't get us saved or keep us saved. The issue is people who hold your position look at sin as the deciding factor, when it is not. It's a category fail on your part.

2. I want scripture for your response....I'm trying to see what you're argument is here.

Feel free to ask questions. A lot of scripture has already been posted on the thread. If you have any particular issue with any of them, we can discuss that.

3. I disagree with your claim that anyone who believes in losing salvation automatically gets prideful and puts down others. Teaching that one can lose their salvation (this is biblical btw i'll post one of the many scriptures in a sec), causes them to be more serious and read their word more becuase they realize they have to study, pray, get refillings of the HOly Ghost as they did in acts 4...to stay with God. As a result they will read scriptures that teach about being humble and how pride leads to destruction...so there's no loophole.

My past discussions with those who hold your opinion makes my generalization justified.

Besides, even here you list all the things one would have to do to "stay with God". It's work to keep oneself saved and in God's good graces. You've really just illustrated my point nicely. Thanks.

On the other hand, I don't have to be concerned about being tossed aside if I don't make an imaginary quota.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

There is no loop hole. That's just an excuse those who want to help save themselves make up. One sin or 10,000 sins, makes no difference. Our keeping of the law doesn't get us saved or keep us saved. The issue is people who hold your position look at sin as the deciding factor, when it is not. It's a category fail on your part.




Feel free to ask questions. A lot of scripture has already been posted on the thread. If you have any particular issue with any of them, we can discuss that.



My past discussions with those who hold your opinion makes my generalization justified.

Besides, even here you list all the things one would have to do to "stay with God". It's work to keep oneself saved and in God's good graces. You've really just illustrated my point nicely. Thanks.

On the other hand, I don't have to be concerned about being tossed aside if I don't make an imaginary quota.

1. All i'm asking for is one scripture to support your position... every time I have a discussion with a OSAS believer they resort to logic and analogies not the word of God. And that only helps me out in the debate....proves there's no bible to support your position. I've posted two scriptures...which you ignored.... can you post some?


2. Ok i'm going to forget about the loophole argument and just straight up ask the question i'm trying to give you.
Can someone theoretically under the OSAS ideoligy sin as much as they want.... after accepting God as their savior or whatever...and still make it to heaven? Could i sleep with someone each day....watch porn each day.... mmmm idk steal sometimes all while accepting God as my savior (assuming that's what you believe salvation is) and still make it? Still be saved?

Could I kill 3 people.... and not repent of that....but do that after accepting God as my savior some years ago or whenever I did so and still be saved?


Is there a limit to what I can do until i'm not saved anymore and if so doesn't that kill the OSAS theory even without the scriptures that contradict it?

3. The thread was 11 pages long by the time I got here....I would rather you post at least one or two scriptures as I did.... it would help. I'm not asking you to post 10 scriptures just one or two that support your position in your opinion.

You seem scared to biblically discuss this....I mean I don't mind a good logical debate....competed in debate for years....was fun.


But when it comes to the bible...needs to be book chapter and verse...so can you provide that or not? And if you didn't want to discuss bible...why address my comment? You initiated this.

 

[Radagast]

I think this teaching has a loophole of allowing for willful sinning considering the fact that you stay saved no matter what.

Obviously you don't understand the doctrine.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Obviously you don't understand the doctrine.

Obviously it’s hard to understand something that’s not biblical. And if it is biblical To you give me scripture that you believe supports your ideology .

 

[JacksBratt]

Yet, Jesus said in Matthew 7 that there were believers who thought they did wonderful works and yet they were not saved because they worked iniquity (sin). Jesus says depart from me ye that work iniquity. Jesus did not say, Depart from me ye that did not believe solely in me as your Savior while you ignore your sin. You have things backwards. God is good; He is not evil and He will not allow His people to be evil. Think man!

Nowhere does it say anything close to "As sure as we cometh we can leaveth."

Those are your words, not scripture. You are speculating. You use bible speak language to make it seem like scripture but it never says what you have stated.

 

[JacksBratt]

You didn't even look at those pieces of Scripture. You are just hitting the disagree button and making the Word of God say what you want it to say. Nowhere do these verses suggest that you are separated in fellowship and yet you are still saved. I get no such indication of that in these pieces of Scripture I quoted to you. Please show me. Show me. Show me where it says what you say.

What I'm saying is, no matter what those verses state, there is not one person here who does not covet, call people a fool from time to time, look at a member of the opposite sex with admiration (lust), miss and opportunity to help someone in need, desire (love) money or lie....

Let's be honest here. Anyone saying that they don't do any of these things is lying anyway.

So, if these are things that take away your salvation, we would have to continually be asking for salvation back...

 

[JacksBratt]

People need to repent and they need to wake up. Jesus is coming. Get your beliefs and your heart right with the Lord (if you have not done so).

Absolutely.

 

[JacksBratt]

I think that is speculation.

Yep, your right, I have no evidence. Do you think that there are very many that turn from their faith, in comparison to those that don't? Or do you think that I am accurate in saying that it is probably "tiny percentages" ?

Being lost is a term used for unsaved, surely you can see that comment doesn't work at all to the term lost in it's context here. If not, it's like saying people don't become unsaved on purpose when going on a sin binge is on purpose. Wasn't it you that I told, I've done it myself? So I know And I hardly think I'm the exception to the rule.

Oh, I agree. The term "lost" refers to the unsaved.

However, losing something is a totally different application of this term. The concept of being lost is different than "I lost my car keys".
Don't you agree?

Read the following and tell me if people that do those things as a lifestyle will become unsaved?

1 Cor 6:9-10 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.

Well, I have no right to say what is in their heart. Only Christ knows a mans heart. Or, are you omniscient and know what the trials and temptations are that these people face?

On the surface, if I someone doing these things, I would doubt that they were a child of God. That is true.

However, I do know a homosexual that is a true believer, saved as I am, but struggles with a sexual temptation beyond my comprehension, as a straight guy.

Point is...... you have no right to say "he is saved" or "he is not saved"... absolutely no right.

There are several more like that, and if you're going to claim, they won't likely do that, then we just disagree. Or are you saying they could always do those things as a lifestyle and remain saved....if so, we also disagree there. Just that scripture is very clear we cannot

It is all about the desire and attitude of the heart. You do not know what others struggle with.

Someone who is a glutton... eats chips and junk food and is 300 pounds... goes to church and sings in the choir... on fire for the Lord.... Then they condemn the alcoholic, drug user, sexually addicted.... not even realizing that gluttony is a sin as much as addiction.

If the person has no care in the world, no desire or agenda to combat their unrighteous behavior... then they are like those in Sodom and Gomorrah....

Those that struggle.. are attempting to stay on their Christ like path... you have no right to decide if they are saved or not.

 

[pshun2404]

If one is truly (actually) born from above one cannot unborn themselves. That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. If it be that the Spirit of Christ ACTUALLY dwells in you then you are sealed until the day of redemption. Sadly many are taught (falsely) that saying some magical prayer or taking a bath assures one a place with Him after we leave this world but that is not what the Bible really teaches. Once God has made you a new creature you cannot be unmade. Real salvation is about what He has done for and in you not about what you do or have done.

 

[SBC]

I didn't make a damning claim about Peter. I reported accurately the wording Paul wrote in Galatians chapter 2, Galatians 2:11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. (note various translations shown in this link -- Cephas is Peter) and encourage you to see read it yourself, and you perhaps should then also read the sections in Acts showing later in time Peter turning from this wrong and no longer doing it, if you need to.

Also, I ask you to take back the wrongful accusation that I made a 'damning claim' against Peter, who I know turned from this wrong and changed, shown in Acts.

It's to be aware of the wonderful fact that we are instructed to confess our sins, and if we do, we are forgiven them, as we learn in 1 John chapter 1, and in James chapter 5.

Condemned is synonymous with damned.

What was Peter hughly condemned for,
Reference that you said in your post # 107 ?

God Bless,
SBC

 

[pshun2404]

Galatians 2 is just saying Peter was shown (even to Peter) to be incorrect (not condemned as meaning now going to hell)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nowhere does it say anything close to "As sure as we cometh we can leaveth."

Those are your words, not scripture. You are speculating. You use bible speak language to make it seem like scripture but it never says what you have stated.

First, you really did not address any of the verses I quoted as saying that they are talking exclusively about a break in fellowship and not a loss of salvation. For me, when Jesus says that if you look upon a woman in lust your whole body can be cast into hell fire in Matthew 5:28-30, it is kind of obvious that this kind of sin is a loss of salvation. The same is true with Matthew 25:31-46 in relation to not helping the poor. Jesus says to those who do not help the poor that they will be cast into everlasting fire (See Matthew 25:41-43).

Second, Scripture talks plenty about how we can leave God.

Here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith.

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

• Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)

• Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)

• The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)

• Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)

• Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

• Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

• Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)

• Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14, 15)

• Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8, 9, 10)

• Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

• The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45, 46)

• Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)

• The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14, 15)

• Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)

• Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)

• Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5, 6)

• Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)

• Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)

• Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7, 8)

• The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
  (James 5:19, 20)

 

[Halbhh]

Condemned is synonymous with damned.

What was Peter hughly condemned for,
Reference that you said in your post # 107 ?

God Bless,
SBC

I've posted what was in #107 again, but added also the full passage quote this time, and also in another translation, and I think that should help. See below in post #219, which also has some extra explanation added.

 

[Halbhh]

Galatians 2 is just saying Peter was shown (even to Peter) to be incorrect (not condemned as meaning now going to hell)

That's right. Paul wrote Peter "stood condemned", meaning he was in a state of that would lead to ultimate condemnation unless he turned and changed.

Peter turned and changed. Repented.

We can too, all of us. That's part of the amazing Grace He offers to us.

There's something to learn in these epistles, like Galatians, and the lessons are not always comfortable! But it will end up far more uncomfortable to refuse to do as we are instructed.


.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Absolutely.

But you define the term "repentance" differently.
Jesus definied repentance for us by pointing us to Jonah 3:6-10 in Matthew 12:41. For Jesus essentially said the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. In Jonah chapter 3 we learn that the King of the Ninevites had said to the people to:

(a) Cry out to God (and),
(b) Turn from their evil and wicked ways.
(See Jonah 3:6-9 cf. Matthew 12:41).​

We then learn that God had seen that they had turned from their wicked and evil ways is when wrath or judgment was averted, too. So it was not an empty profession of paying lip service. They actually were truly sorry over their sins by making good on their prayer towards God in turning from their evil ways.

Jesus said repent or you will perish (Luke 13:3).

Also, as for the false belief alone type salvation: Well, the Bible says, even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).

 

[Halbhh]

Let's use one of the several translations that makes it plain, but instead of translating as "stood condemned" translates to "be blamed" -- perhaps that will aid people on this:

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; so that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, If you, being a Jew, live after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compel you the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? - American King James Version

Consider that although he had received the Spirit, Peter still did this very major, huge wrong, and then "stood condemned" (most translations render it this way) -- was in the at-that-time (until he turned later) in a state of "to be blamed" (some translations render it this way). It's so dramatic.

Consider -- through Peter, with Peter's real and strong faith, a girl was raised from the dead!

That Peter, the very same Peter, then did this huge wrong, and it must have troubled his conscience.

And Paul had to confront him.

It's a humbling lesson to all of us, that if even Peter could stumble so badly, then we can too.

This is why confessing and repenting is so crucial, for us already converted, already believing in real faith even. When we then sin, at times, we are to confess, sincerely, in our hearts, to God our Father.

It's the lesson in 1 John chapter 1 and in James chapter 5 -- that we must confess our sins, after we stumble, that we would return to fully following Christ, instead of having a separation from Him (which if our significant sin(s) is left unrepented, can start to increase).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What I'm saying is, no matter what those verses state, there is not one person here who does not covet, call people a fool from time to time, look at a member of the opposite sex with admiration (lust), miss and opportunity to help someone in need, desire (love) money or lie....

Let's be honest here. Anyone saying that they don't do any of these things is lying anyway.

You are going off by sight and not by faith.
We are to have faith in God's Word and we are not to walk by sight.

I mean, did God lie about Job?
For God said this about Job...

"And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?" (Job 1:8).

Now, you probably are thinking this means something else. But it doesn't. It means what it says. Just read and believe your Bible. But your not really doing that. You are looking to outside things of this world to influence your thinking within the faith.

So, if these are things that take away your salvation, we would have to continually be asking for salvation back...

The scenario you suggest does not exist for the believer who has truly repented. But be not deceived, he that sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34), and the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23); And Paul says we can be slaves righteousness (Romans 6:18). 1 John 3:10 says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

If a believer is sinning, they are not doing righteousness and they are not loving their brother and they are showing what kind of child they really are of (by their deeds). For keeping the moral law is the same as loving your neighbor (See Romans 13:8-10).