Are There Credible Witnesses to the Resurrection, Part II

[Hawkins]

I wonder what choice the children and their families would take. Die of hunger or maybe cancer before five, just so you eliminate the chance of going to an alleged hell?

LOL

Well. That's out of human choice. But it can remain a choice of God! That's the point!

A fundamental difference between God and man is that, man count body while God counts soul. Man refers to damage to body as a standard to measure cruelty, while God may well count where the soul will go as the standard. That's the point!

 

[StTruth]

The point is, where are they going? Hell? It is said that no children can be found in hell.

So you want them to grow up in order to go to hell? That's the question for you!

Oh my God! This is even more heinous than I thought. So you are saying that God is merciful in letting the children starve slowly to death because if they grew up, they would end up in hell after they're dead?

This is extremely irresponsible. It will make people reluctant to help quake victims etc because they will say it's better for the infants to die and go to heaven than to live on and go to hell when they die as adults.

I didn't believe I would read such a thing in the 21st century. I think I need say no further. If this is how God's followers are led to think, my question is answered.

Cheers,

St Truth

 

[bhsmte]

Well. That's out of human choice. But it can remain a choice of God! That's the point!

A fundamental difference between God and man is that, man count body while God counts soul. That's the point!

Sure, the god that allows all those children to suffer and die young. Reconciling that to a loving and caring god, i will leave up to you.

 

[Hawkins]

Sure, the god that allows all those children to suffer and die young. Reconciling that to a loving and caring god, i will leave up to you.

The loving God is about who will remain in a good eternity, instead of a short earthly time. Do you mean to say that you want God to bring up someone for the Law to condemn him to an eternal hell as a loving act?

 

[Hawkins]

Oh my God! This is even more heinous than I thought. So you are saying that God is merciful in letting the children starve slowly to death because if they grew up, they would end up in hell after they're dead?

I already pointed out that it's you who let the children dying slowly in hunger! You'd rather using your money to surf the net than to saving the dying! God allows you to make such a choice, such that you will be destroyed if your conscience doesn't look for a repentance!

 

[Chriliman]

Of course you know the answer. Try again. A baby drowns in a pail of water. He struggles and finally becomes weak and dies. What did God do to stop the suffering? Graham Staines and sons were burnt in their car for hours. What did God do to prevent the suffering of a missionary and his sons?

You know the answer. God did nothing. Say it. Don't worry. The God who does nothing to help dying children isn't going to cast his lightning at you. As long as you speak the truth, you should have no fear.

If God does nothing then nothing happens, but God didn't do nothing, he created beings in his image who can follow their own desires and result of disobedient desires is dying babies or whatever other evil. So what does God do now? He convicts us of our sins and urges us to make peace and heal the sick and do good.

Again you fail to address the issues correctly. How is it that you don't address your mind to all these issues correctly? Justice is a different matter altogether. Justice against the murderers of Graham Staines and his two sons is a different thing from stopping the suffering of Staines and his sons. These are different issues. Can't you see that? If you say God will mete out justice on the souls of the murderers and reward Staines in heaven, that will only go to the question of God's justice - is God just? But it doesn't address the other attribute of God that I'm addressing - can God even be called loving? These are different questions and yet you don't seem to be able to distinguish them!!!

St Truth

I'm just saying it is obvious that those men disobeyed God when killing the missionaries. What did God do? He was probably telling them to stop sinning! Now I'd appreciate it if you'd stop accusing me of addressing the issue incorrectly, I'm only being honest and patient with you.

 

[StTruth]

I already pointed out that it's you who let the children dying slowly in hunger! You'd rather using your money to surf the net than to saving the dying! God allows you to make such a choice, such that you will be destroyed if your conscience doesn't look for a repentance!

I'm so glad my church doesn't accept your kind of theology. I saw a programme recently of an interview with the past Archbishop of Canterbury. He was asked if he believed in hell. He said that hell was the world we're in now. And the reporter then replied, 'OK, you don't believe in hell.' Of course not. We don't believe in an evil God.

 

[StTruth]

There's no need to discuss further. We are poles apart. Faith has the effect of making people hardened. I think it's the desire to exculpate God that makes people think this way. Normally, a Christian, like all other people, is a good person. He will think it's evil not to pull a drowning baby out of a pail of water. But the moment God does the same things that he thinks is evil, his sense of right and wrong becomes confused.

My only hope is they won't learn to be like the God they believe in. That they will continue to pull babies out of water. But what's insidious is the belief I just heard. That it's better for non-Christian African babies to die horrible deaths than to live to a ripe old age and die and get sent to hell for not being a Christian. That is terribly insidious. It may make the person less willing to help quake victims and victims of other disasters in non-Christian countries. My only relief is not many Christians hold that view. My church certainly doesn't.

Thanks for all your thoughts. I understand Christianity and Christians better. I will always be a sceptical, questioning, hyper-liberal Christian who acknowledges openly that the faith is irrational and illogical and totally unsupported by evidence or reason. And I will make sure that Christian theology does not make me a bad person when I grow up. If that's going to happen, I'd rather embrace atheism where there is no such pitfall.

St Truth

 

[Chriliman]

I'm so glad my church doesn't accept your kind of theology. I saw a programme recently of an interview with the past Archbishop of Canterbury. He was asked if he believed in hell. He said that hell was the world we're in now. And the reporter then replied, 'OK, you don't believe in hell.' Of course not. We don't believe in an evil God.

I completely agree that hell can exist in the here and now and the only way out is through the love of Christ.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

If God does nothing then nothing happens, but God didn't do nothing, he created beings in his image who can follow their own desires and result of disobedient desires is dying babies or whatever other evil. So what does God do now? He convicts us of our sins and urges us to make peace and heal the sick and do good.

That doesn’t explain why a god wouldn’t have created free-willed beings who could choose to cause suffering to each other, but never choose to do so.

Inability? Malevolence?

 

[StTruth]

I completely agree that hell can exist in the here and now and the only way out is through the love of Christ.

After all that has been said on this thread, I'm ashamed to see the words 'the love of Christ'. But some of us can be pretty shameless, I'll allow that.

 

[Chriliman]

That doesn’t explain why a god wouldn’t have created free-willed beings who could choose to cause suffering to each other, but never choose to do so.

Inability? Malevolence?

Good question, I hope to find a good answer

 

[bhsmte]

I already pointed out that it's you who let the children dying slowly in hunger! You'd rather using your money to surf the net than to saving the dying! God allows you to make such a choice, such that you will be destroyed if your conscience doesn't look for a repentance!

LOL

 

[bhsmte]

The loving God is about who will remain in a good eternity, instead of a short earthly time. Do you mean to say that you want God to bring up someone for the Law to condemn him to an eternal hell as a loving act?

I dont buy this explanation. You can though.

 

[Chriliman]

After all that has been said on this thread, I'm ashamed to see the words 'the love of Christ'. But some of us can be pretty shameless, I'll allow that.

I attribute a lot, if not all, of what I know about God to Jesus' teachings and other people of God. I know anything true I learn about God, ultimately comes from Him through His creation.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Good question, I hope to find a good answer

Are you bothered that the god you believe in would be either less powerful than you believe or malevolent?

I think personally I'd be more bothered by the second one. I can at least sympathize with a god that created a world expecting it to turn out wonderfully, only to have things turn out worse than that god hoped, and who was unable to change things

 

[Chriliman]

Are you bothered that the god you believe in would be either less powerful than you believe or malevolent?

I think personally I'd be more bothered by the second one. I can at least sympathize with a god that created a world expecting it to turn out wonderfully, only to have things turn out worse than that god hoped, and who was unable to change things

I'd be more bothered that what I believe isn't true, or can't ever be known to be true, but generally I agree.

I believe God created us hoping for a good outcome and I don't agree that he's unable to fulfill that original goal in time.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I'd be more bothered that what I believe isn't true, or can't ever be known to be true, but generally I agree.

I believe God created us hoping for a good outcome and I don't agree that he's unable to fulfill that original goal in time.

So you think the god you believe in wasn't initially able to create us in such a way that we wouldn't cause suffering to each other?

 

[Chriliman]

So you think the god you believe in wasn't initially able to create us in such a way that we wouldn't cause suffering to each other?

I believe God wasn't able to create without himself suffering in some way, but he knew or at least hoped the outcome would be ever lasting and fulfilled relationship with his creation. Which also means that we'd also have to suffer in some way in order to come into that everlasting relationship with God. It is a great mystery, and one I'm okay with accepting and exploring.

 

[GeorgeJ]

Oh my God! This is even more heinous than I thought. So you are saying that God is merciful in letting the children starve slowly to death because if they grew up, they would end up in hell after they're dead?

Why not? Remember, this is the same god that was responsible for the slaughter of innocent women and children.....or so the Old Testament says.....

 

[BigDaddy4]

I have figured it out. God has got to be EITHER weak and loving OR omnipotent and evil. There is no other way. You can search till you're blue in the face and you won't get an answer that differs from what I've just said.

I speak the truth for I am the one and only...

St Truth

I don't think you have it figured out, nor do I think you speak the truth. Just from your words in this post you've shown irreverence for God and elevated yourself to be the judge of Him. Furthermore, you brag about being "the one and only...". The spirit of God is not in your words. May someday you repent and grow in spiritual maturity.

Regarding suffering, in John 16:33 Jesus said, "I have told you these things so that in me you may have peace. You will have suffering in this world. But be courageous! I have conquered the world." In 1 Corinthians 13:12 we're told, "Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity." Also, Romans 8:28 promises, "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."

Suffering, in whatever form, from a baby drowning to mass genocides like the Holocaust, will happen. Jesus said so. Believe him or don't. Your choice. In the end, Jesus reigns and "conquer(s) the world". As Romans 8:18 tells us "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us." IOW, God knows more than you do.