Are There Credible Witnesses to the Resurrection, Part II

[Chriliman]

No, I didn't say that. Don't be confused. First, we are talking about why God fails to pull a baby out of a pail of water and is content to see him drown. I said he could either be omnipotent and evil OR loving and weak. You wrote this:

"I think 'weak' is the wrong term. I'd rephrase it as 'God is either limited only by his will to do good and to love or omnipotent and evil'"

The statement is ambiguous and since it must reply to what I said earlier (or it would have been irrelevant), I took it to mean that you are saying that God's ability to do good is limited by his will. If his will limits his ability to do good and therefore he doesn't save the drowning baby, then his will must be evil and he is evil.

If in fact your statement (quoted above) doesn't mean what I assumed it meant, what did you mean by that statement and how does it refute my conclusion that God can only be Almighty and evil OR weak and loving?

I remain,

St Truth

Let's assume God is weak and loving, what does that mean to you?

 

[StTruth]

Let's assume God is weak and loving, what does that mean to you?

It would mean the God of the Bible doesn't exist. It would mean our Christian God, the Holy Trinity doesn't exist. Because omnipotence is a necessary property in our God. Take that away and he no longer exists.

For I am...

St Truth

 

[Chriliman]

It would mean the God of the Bible doesn't exist. It would mean our Christian God, the Holy Trinity doesn't exist. Because omnipotence is a necessary property in our God. Take that away and he no longer exists.

For I am...

St Truth

If God is a good omnipotent God, then by definition, even though he's omnipotent, this doesn't necessarily mean he's willing to do anything evil. Would you agree with that?

As to your dying baby - God is also immortal, which means he has a greater perspective on life and death and immortality than we do, even when it comes to babies who die because of human neglect. I believe that since God has overcome death, that any of his creation who dies because of evil neglect will be resurrected to justified, peaceful life. The reason we can't fully see this yet is because we haven't physically died yet, but it's a hope we can have in God. But you may ask 'why doesn't he save the baby from death and prolong its suffering in this life where no person wants to care for it?' I say he's good to end the babies suffering and bring it into immortal life in Him where there is no suffering or death. Then you'll ask 'why did God bring the baby into existence just to suffer and die?' I would say I don't know because I don't fully understand God's immortal perspective, but I trust Him.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

It would mean the God of the Bible doesn't exist. It would mean our Christian God, the Holy Trinity doesn't exist. Because omnipotence is a necessary property in our God. Take that away and he no longer exists.

For I am...

St Truth

Omnipotence is a nonsensical proposition to begin with. So I don't think you're losing much.

 

[StTruth]

If God is a good omnipotent God, then by definition, even though he's omnipotent, this doesn't necessarily mean he's willing to do anything evil. Would you agree with that?

As to your dying baby - God is also immortal, which means he has a greater perspective on life and death and immortality than we do, even when it comes to babies who die because of human neglect. I believe that since God has overcome death, that any of his creation who dies because of evil neglect will be resurrected to justified, peaceful life. The reason we can't fully see this yet is because we haven't physically died yet, but it's a hope we can have in God. But you may ask 'why doesn't he save the baby from death and prolong its suffering in this life where no person wants to care for it?' I say he's good to end the babies suffering and bring it into immortal life in Him where there is no suffering or death. Then you'll ask 'why did God bring the baby into existence just to suffer and die?' I would say I don't know because I don't fully understand God's immortal perspective, but I trust Him.

You totally missed my point. I was not talking about death. I was talking about God sitting by watching a baby suffering for weeks of starvation before dying. I'm talking about the video I once saw of a street lynching. A young boy being burnt slowly to death. He kept screaming for God and for Jesus. It took hours before he died. I can't find it in my heart to say that anyone who can watch the whole thing and do nothing (when he can easily do something) is even remotely loving. He's got to have the most evil heart known to man. You keep misunderstanding me by talking about death and heaven but that's a non-issue.

God sits by and watches billions of sufferings that are easily prevented. He watched his own missionary Graham Staines burnt slowly in his car together with his two young sons. He heard them screaming for God and for Jesus. But he continued watching and did nothing. According to news reports they died after many hours of torture by militants. Please consider this thing carefully and don't reply with something else that I'm not talking about. I will only repeat the litany of God's cruel acts or more likely, inaction.

Next, you must at least consider the likelihood that God does not exist. God's non-existence will fit beautifully with all these countless examples of his otherwise evidence of wickedness. A rational mind, if confronted with all these facts, must say that God doesn't exist. That's what brilliant and rational people such as the biologist and zoologist Sir David Attenborough
and the theologian and Bible scholar Bart Ehrman say after reviewing the reality of our world - that it's unlikely for a benign God to exist.

This is the truth even though I personally don't like it but speak the truth I must, for I am...

St Truth

 

[Chriliman]

You totally missed my point. I was not talking about death. I was talking about God sitting by watching a baby suffering for weeks of starvation before dying. I'm talking about the video I once saw of a street lynching. A young boy being burnt slowly to death. He kept screaming for God and for Jesus. It took hours before he died. I can't find it in my heart to say that anyone who can watch the whole thing and do nothing (when he can easily do something) is even remotely loving. He's got to have the most evil heart known to man. You keep misunderstanding me by talking about death and heaven but that's a non-issue.

God sits by and watches billions of sufferings that are easily prevented. He watched his own missionary Graham Staines burnt slowly in his car together with his two young sons. He heard them screaming for God and for Jesus. But he continued watching and did nothing. According to news reports they died after many hours of torture by militants. Please consider this thing carefully and don't reply with something else that I'm not talking about. I will only repeat the litany of God's cruel acts or more likely, inaction.

Next, you must at least consider the likelihood that God does not exist. God's non-existence will fit beautifully with all these countless examples of his otherwise evidence of wickedness. A rational mind, if confronted with all these facts, must say that God doesn't exist. That's what brilliant and rational people such as the biologist and zoologist Sir David Attenborough
and the theologian and Bible scholar Bart Ehrman say after reviewing the reality of our world - that it's unlikely for a benign God to exist.

This is the truth even though I personally don't like it but speak the truth I must, for I am...

St Truth

Not only are you talking about death, but also suffering. If indeed there is no good omnipotent God who can overcome death and suffering then, yes, this life is the biggest most pointless and evil tragedy imaginable. Just remember that I don't accept that view of life because I see and accept a different possibility, which includes a good omnipotent God who can over come death and suffering through His good will.

 

[StTruth]

Not only are you talking about death, but also suffering. If indeed there is no good omnipotent God who can overcome death and suffering then, yes, this life is the biggest most pointless and evil tragedy imaginable. Just remember that I don't accept that view of life because I see and accept a different possibility, which includes a good omnipotent God who can over come death and suffering through His good will.

Again, you step to one side and do not address my point. Is this deliberate? I am not disputing that an omnipotent God can overcome death and suffering. I'm saying that of course he can. It's because he can but DOES not alleviate suffering but sits by and watches children being burnt to death slowly and he sits and watches infants dying of starvation and does nothing that makes him evil. Do you understand that now? What other misunderstanding can you come up with now?

Please understand that I am zealous when it comes to holding on to the truth, for I am...

St Truth

 

[Chriliman]

Again, you step to one side and do not address my point. Is this deliberate? I am not disputing that an omnipotent God can overcome death and suffering. I'm saying that of course he can. It's because he can but DOES not alleviate suffering but sits by and watches children being burnt to death slowly and he sits and watches infants dying of starvation and does nothing that makes him evil. Do you understand that now? What other misunderstanding can you come up with now?

Please understand that I am zealous when it comes to holding on to the truth, for I am...

St Truth

I don't think he does sit and watch and do nothing, what you're imagining there is some super evil being that I think only exists in your imagination.

I think God brings things and people into existence for good reasons, but at the same time, he doesn't control their will once they exist, therefore evil disobedience occurs that He must deal with and we experience the reprocussions of those evils, but can also experience how God solves and heals the problem, even through us and our obedience to Him.

Either God made us with the ability to do as we desire, like he can and therefore this can explain why evil exists because some don't desire or do what God desires or he directly controls every decisions we make and is therefore culpable for all the evil things we do.

 

[StTruth]

I don't think he does sit and watch and do nothing, what you're imagining there is some super evil being that I think only exists in your imagination.

I think God brings things and people into existence for good reasons, but at the same time, he doesn't control their will once they exist, therefore evil disobedience occurs that He must deal with and we experience the reprocussions of those evils, but can also experience how God solves and heals the problem, even through us and our obedience to Him.

Either God made us with the ability to do as we desire, like he can and therefore this can explain why evil exists because some don't desire or do what God desires or he directly controls every decisions we make and is therefore culpable for all the evil things we do.

You say God doesn't sit and watch and does nothing. When a toddler falls into a pail of water and struggles and eventually drowns, what does God do?

When God's missionary Graham Staines and his two young sons were burnt in a car and they screamed and tried to escape but were beaten and forced back by the Hindu extremists into the burning car and this went on for hours, what did God do if he didn't just watch and did nothing?

You say it's all my imagination that God does nothing. Let's see what your imagination says. For truth and truth alone is what I seek even if I should offend the God I love for I am...

St Truth

 

[ananda]

Are There Credible Witnesses to the Resurrection

I haven't met a single one, sadly.

 

[Chriliman]

You say God doesn't sit and watch and does nothing.

Knowing the character of God as able and willing to heal the problems we've created in this world, no I rebuke anyone who would claim that God does nothing to help our dire situations, even to the point of raising us from the dead.

When a toddler falls into a pail of water and struggles and eventually drowns, what does God do?

I know what I would do in that situation, but when considering what an immortal God who sees the beginning from the end would do, I really can't say for sure, but again, knowing God, there is a justified answer. I don't yet know what that answer is.

When God's missionary Graham Staines and his two young sons were burnt in a car and they screamed and tried to escape but were beaten and forced back by the Hindu extremists into the burning car and this went on for hours, what did God do if he didn't just watch and did nothing?

I have hope that all injustices committed by man will reap their due reward(not a good reward) and that God will be there when justice is served to even offer forgiveness if He so desires.

You say it's all my imagination that God does nothing. Let's see what your imagination says. For truth and truth alone is what I seek even if I should offend the God I love for I am...

St Truth

Much of what we struggle with comes from our own evil desires, thoughts and imaginations or from the evil desires, thoughts and imaginations of others, as the following Scripture clearly states:
Ephesians 6:12
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

 

[Hawkins]

Again, you step to one side and do not address my point. Is this deliberate? I am not disputing that an omnipotent God can overcome death and suffering. I'm saying that of course he can. It's because he can but DOES not alleviate suffering but sits by and watches children being burnt to death slowly and he sits and watches infants dying of starvation and does nothing that makes him evil. Do you understand that now? What other misunderstanding can you come up with now?

Please understand that I am zealous when it comes to holding on to the truth, for I am...

St Truth

It's you who are one of them causing the starvation itself. You use your money to surf the net instead of helping out the dying children in Africa! God sits there such that people like you will be destroyed once and for all, until you choose to repent through Jesus Christ.

 

[bhsmte]

It's you who are one of them causing the starvation itself. You use your money to surf the net instead of helping out the dying children in Africa! God sits there such that people like you will be destroyed once and for all, until you choose to repent through Jesus Christ.

9 million children die each year before the age of five, so there is already a lot of destroying of lives going on. 17 morebhave died in the time it took me to type this response. Who is responsible for that destroying?

 

[StTruth]

It's you who is one of them causing the starvation itself. You use your money to surf the net instead of helping out the dying children in Africa! God sits there such that people like you will be destroyed once and for all, until you choose to repent through Jesus Christ.

Thanks for this post. You raise an interesting point.

I complain about the starving children and God not doing anything to help. One argument some Christians come up with is to tell the complainant that he should contribute to the poor children himself. Some will even say that God does nothing to let us do something.

The flaw in this argument is obvious. I'm still in school and my dad gives me £100 a week. He will increase my pocket money because last month, my GCSE results were out and I did incredibly well (clever me!). But let's stick to £100 a week. I can save as much as £50 a week. Supposing I give £50 a week to a fund for starving African children. Out of the 100 children dying every second, I may save 1 or 2 with my miserable sum of £50 a week. So I reduce the number to 98 dying every second of starvation. And I'll be miserable because I can't even go to KFC with my friends. And certainly going to G&V for a steak and kidney pie and a bubble and squeak is totally out of the question unless I go with my parents.

That's how little I can contribute to help the dying children and how great a loss to me. A huge sacrifice for insignificant gain.

But God is different. It doesn't cost him anything to help a dying child. He doesn't even have to say a word. A mere thought is enough. But he doesn't do anything.

Supposing yes, I am evil because I refuse to part with my pocket money because I want to go to KFC. What about God?

The point is it's not about me. God already says I'm a sinner so He can't expect to use me as his yardstick for perfection even though I am...

St Truth

 

[Hawkins]

9 million children die each year before the age of five, so there is already a lot of destroying of lives going on. 17 morebhave died in the time it took me to type this response. Who is responsible for that destroying?

The point is, where are they going? Hell? It is said that no children can be found in hell.

So you want them to grow up in order to go to hell? That's the question for you!

 

[Hawkins]

Thanks for this post. You raise an interesting point.

The same answer.

The point is, where are they going? Hell? It is said that no children can be found in hell.

So you want them to grow up in order to go to hell? That's the question for you!

It's actually understandable that immature children are not subject to the judgment of Law.

 

[bhsmte]

The point is, where are they going? Hell? It is said that no children can be found in hell.

So you want them to grow up in order to go to hell? That's the question for you!

Who said they would go to hell? You?

 

[Hawkins]

Who said they would go to hell? You?

No. I said the opposite. Those children died of hunger they won't be in hell. However, if they grow up they bare a chance to be in hell.

 

[StTruth]

I don't yet know what that answer is.

Of course you know the answer. Try again. A baby drowns in a pail of water. He struggles and finally becomes weak and dies. What did God do to stop the suffering? Graham Staines and sons were burnt in their car for hours. What did God do to prevent the suffering of a missionary and his sons?

You know the answer. God did nothing. Say it. Don't worry. The God who does nothing to help dying children isn't going to cast his lightning at you. As long as you speak the truth, you should have no fear.

I have hope that all injustices committed by man will reap their due reward(not a good reward) and that God will be there when justice is served to even offer forgiveness if He so desires.

Again you fail to address the issues correctly. How is it that you don't address your mind to all these issues correctly? Justice is a different matter altogether. Justice against the murderers of Graham Staines and his two sons is a different thing from stopping the suffering of Staines and his sons. These are different issues. Can't you see that? If you say God will mete out justice on the souls of the murderers and reward Staines in heaven, that will only go to the question of God's justice - is God just? But it doesn't address the other attribute of God that I'm addressing - can God even be called loving? These are different questions and yet you don't seem to be able to distinguish them!!!

St Truth

 

[bhsmte]

No. I said the opposite. Those children died of hunger they won't be in hell. However, if they grow up they bare a chance to be in hell.

I wonder what choice the children and their families would take. Die of hunger or maybe cancer before five, just so you eliminate the chance of going to an alleged hell?

LOL