Are there any Scientologists here?
- Thread starter Resha Caner
- Start date
Quid est Veritas?
In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Someone is trying to be labelled a SP (suppressive person) I see.
I have often wondered if the 'Lord Xemu' stuff is at all believed, it is a bit beyond the pale after all.
My wife was watching Leah Riminy's recent documentary and it seems to me as if Scientology tries to isolate its adherents from other belief systems and has a built-in 'informing on your friends' - so I doubt many Scientologists make their way here.
I have often wondered if the 'Lord Xemu' stuff is at all believed, it is a bit beyond the pale after all.
My wife was watching Leah Riminy's recent documentary and it seems to me as if Scientology tries to isolate its adherents from other belief systems and has a built-in 'informing on your friends' - so I doubt many Scientologists make their way here.
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durangodawood
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That was basically my question. If they claim not to preach any particular ideas about a god, why do they call themselves a church?
OK. Just reading your reply made me feel "icky", so I think I'll move on.
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outlawState
Active Member
Historical reasons to do with money, I guess. It was first incorporated as a church in 1953; but the word "church" seems, at least in the USA, to demand no tangible link to anything approaching a recognized religion. Thus New-Age'ism is as valid as Christianity.
Indeed a legacy of Obama's infatuation with Islam is that it is almost impossible now to legally distinguish Politicking from religion, i.e. the salvation of souls. Neither Islam nor scientology, which was started by an occultist, ever established any plausible hope of salvation, as contrasted with Christian theology, whereas they are overtly political entities.
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outlawState
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Murders etc of Mahomet
List of Killings Ordered or Supported by Muhammad - WikiIslam
In Islam's Own Writings: Muhammad's Massacres and Sex-slaves
Blasphemy of the Koran
The Qur'an Attacks ... Christianity?
Note that Christianity is declared to be akin to paganism in the Koran.
Christian Sotierology
1. Belief in Christ as the Son of God.
"We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." 1 John 5;20
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." ROm 3;23.
Islam offers no certain forgiveness of sins, except through insipid legalism and martydom for political causes. That is why there are so many suicide bombers. It appears to be the only sure way to achieve salvation, but consider: it is frequently a violation of the commandment to murder.
What Christianity does is elevate religion from being a cult of brainwashing, such as Scientology (similar to ancient gnosticism) and Islam (similar to heretical Ebionitism / heretical judaizing tendency within Christianity), to being based on something that can claim to be entirely rational - i.e. becoming like unto a son of God by striving to know God. Only by being like Christ can there be any hope of eternal life.
I know that there are some muslims who prefer the example of Christ to that of Mahomet. I cannot think why they choose to be muslims at all, except that they falsely maintain that it was impossible that Christ came from God. But they cannot offer any proof that he did not, and do not understand either the New or the OId Testament, which shows that it was always prophesied.
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Those links rely on a book that informs its readers;
“This book of mine may contain some information mentioned by me on the authority of certain men of the past, which the reader may disapprove of and the listener may find detestable, because he can find nothing sound and no real meaning in it. In such cases, he should know that it is not my fault that such information comes to him, but the fault of someone who transmitted it to me. I have merely reported it as it was reported to me.”
News for you, the God of Abraham in the Torah considers you to be heavily steeped in Paganism too, though not all sects of Christianity:
<<<Christianity = worst form of idolatry>>>
Muslims accept Jesus as the son of God, as defined in the Torah
I don't think Jesus pbuh would have said this, given Torah says:
Ephraim is God's firstborn son. (Jeremiah 31:9)
Jacob is God's firstborn son. (Exodus 4:22)
Solomon is God's son (2 Samuel 7:13-14)
Herr Kanzler: Adam is the son of God. (Luke 3:3
David is the begotten Son of God. (Psalms 2:7)
Deuteronomy 14:1 "You are the sons of the LORD your God; you shall not cut yourselves nor shave your forehead for the sake of the dead.
Psalm 82:6 I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.
Jeremiah 3:19 "Then I said, 'How I would set you among My sons And give you a pleasant land, The most beautiful inheritance of the nations!' And I said, 'You shall call Me, My Father, And not turn away from following Me.'
God sends Moses to tell Pharaoh that "Israel is My son, My first-born" Exodus 4:22
This isn't Jesus pbuh talking, so not sure what relevance it has?
Simply wrong assumption on your part. Qur'an makes clear, turn back to GOD alone, repent and seek forgiveness. Allah swt loves those who turn back to him. The same is true in the Torah, and sin sacrifices were usually offered to remit unintentional sins. True repentance was achieved by turning to GOD.
Wrong, what Christianity attempts to do is come up with the water solution,
water dilutes and water finds the easiest path.
You have diluted the message of GOD and created a easy way to salvation, but it's a mirage in the desert, looks great, but when you get there you'll find bitter disappointment.
Jesus pbuh himself said,
1) He is the way.
2) He is the truth.
3) He is the life.
4) No one comes to the Father except through him.
The 'Way', the 'Truth' and the 'Life' are all metaphors for Torah or being Torah observant:
I am the way. To his Disciples; the Old Testament Jew, the way was the Torah. The only way to God was through the law. Psalms 119:1 says, “Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the LAW of the LORD.” Psalms 32:8 says, “I will instruct you and show you the way to go; with My eye on you, I will give counsel.” Jesus' followers were also very familiar with Exodus 18:20”And you shall teach them the statutes and the laws, and show them the way in which they must walk and the work they must do.” For the Jews, that way was the law and the prophets. In Jewish tradition, the way to find the path to God was to study the Torah.
I am the truth. To the Torah Jew, the truth was the Torah. Psalms 119:142 says, “Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and your law is truth.” Verse 151 says “You are near, Lord, and all Your commands are truth.” The Jews understood, that truth was the law and the prophets. Absolute truth could only be found in God and revealed in the Law and the Prophets. God was seen as the God of Truth, and the Torah was said to be His thoughts and the revelation of His purpose in the creation of the universe, thereby revealing absolute truth. All “truth” was to be compared against the Truth revealed in the Law and the prophets. The disciples had been taught from childhood that if something did not line up with the truth of scripture, then it was not true.
I am the life. To the Torah Jew, the life was the Torah. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, Moses gives the Israelites a choice to make. They could choose life and prosperity, or they could choose death and adversity. If they chose life, they would have to walk in God's ways, and keep his Law, because God is their life. If they chose death, they were free to ignore God's ways and laws. Moses gave them this advice, choose life. For the Israelite, to follow the law was to choose life. The Torah was life. T he disciples had been taught this from childhood.
No one comes to the Father except through Me. To the Old Testament Jew, the only way to God was through the Law. The Law made it possible for the Israelites to approach God. The sacrifices and rituals allowed them to present themselves before God and to be accepted by him. Those who tried to approach God without following the Law usually ended up dead, (Nadab and Abihu in Leviticus 10). All Israelites knew that the only way to God was through the Law.
Four radical, clear cut statements from the lips of Jesus pbuh. Remember he was very clear about the Torah:
Sermon on the Mount; Matthew 5:
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
It's not about personalities, as they both shared the same core message. It's about believing in the unseen and knowing we will return to GOD one day. We have to make sure we obeyed Him in our short time here on Earth to obtain eternal salvation. Believing what some Greek Philosophers thought in the 2nd to 4th Century, or what a Bedouin Arab personally thought is irrelevant if it can't be proven to be from the Creator.
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outlawState
Active Member
When did I confound the son of God with God? You falsely accuse me. I am not an orthodox Trinitarian in the sense that I do not see the Trinity as an end of belief in itself, for it confounds the concept of person with God, but I do believe Christ proceeded from the Father and that he was not created as other men.
I only view Trinitarianism as a legacy philosophy of the church having to contend with numerous heresies. God himself is and remains a hierarchical unity of spirit, Deut 6;4.
Your allegation of paganism against me is thus unfounded.
These are only adopted sons, and conditional on the son remaining true to God.
Israel was an adopted son after the law, but strayed frequently, and so was punished frequently. The Old Testament prophesies the true son of God, who will create a more perfect covenant between God and men, and extending to the whole earth.
As you've no idea what God demands, then you don't know what repentance he desires.
Why should salvation be difficult "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matt 11:30?
Christians are not released from the law, for in adhering to the law is their salvation. However as Christ showed "the law is made for man, not man for the law." Mk 2;27. Man was not made for the benefit of the law.
The law itself is graded between rudiments, "Do not eat, touch, taste etc" that were reasonable for the ancient Israelites but of little relevance today, and the higher spiritual commandments, as to which Christians obey more than Muslims.
Muslims even allow divorce by women, which the Torah gives no permission for. Muslims do not obey the Torah.
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I did leave a small disclaimer, "though not all sects of Christianity."
Your views about Jesus pbuh preceding from GOD, and not been created like other men, is the same view the Qur'an holds.
Largely agreed, though there was a need on the part of some to incorporate Christianity into the practices of the time, especially amongst the non Jews.
I apologise.
One could argue, Jesus pbuh too was adopted following his Baptism.
Yes, God gave them plenty of warnings, sent a string of Prophets, the last of which was Jesus pbuh. They would reject, mock and kill some and others they would expel.
You say, Jesus pbuh ushered in a 'perfect covenant', but it's not and you are living proof of this:
As a Unitarian, you are a minority sect within mainstream Christianity. As shown previously, Christianity for the most part is Idolatry. The question then is, if the Jews fell out of favour, The Christians erred, then who else was foretold to step forward and become a 'Great Nation'. One who would receive a New Song to Sing, (Isaiah 42:10) be of a strong determined people able to adhere to the many things Jesus pbuh had yet to say, Jn 16:12.
The final revelation makes clear what GOD requires, over and over it reminds people, there's a day of recompense and every soul needs to worship GOD alone, turning back to Him alone. Sounds like Qur'an reaffirms the message of the Torah and Injeel;
Can you explain what these 'higher spiritual commandments' are?
The New Song covers women's rights, the rights of the children, the elderly, the wider community, the environment amongst other matters.
Mankind was very different thousands of years ago to today, GOD gave them a covenant for the time, this was tweaked and changed with the passage of time and new Prophets.
The New Song gives us everything we need to adhere to GOD's will until the end of days:
There are in the Qur’an certain aayaat (verses) which some scholars call the verses of the Ten Commandments, because they include ten important commandments given by Allaah to mankind. These aayaat are to be found in two passages of the Qur’an.
The first is in Soorat al-An’aam, where Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Say: ‘Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited you from: Join not anything in worship with him; be good and dutiful to your parents; kill not your children because of poverty – We provide sustenance for you and for them; come not near to al-fawaahish (shameful sins, illegal sexual intercourse, etc.), whether committed openly or secretly; and kill not anyone whom Allaah has forbidden, except for a just cause (according to Islamic law). This He has commanded you that you may understand.
And come not near to the orphan’s property, except to improve it, until he (or she) attains the age of full strength; and give full measure and full weight with justice. We burden not any person, but that which he can bear. And whenever you give your word (i.e., judge between men or give evidence, etc.), say the truth even if a near relative is concerned, and fulfil the Covenant of Allaah. This He commands you, that you may remember.
And, verily, this (i.e., Allaah’s commandments mentioned in the above two verses) is my Straight Path, so follow it, and follow not (other) paths, for they will separate you away from His Path. This He has ordained for you that you may become al-muttaqoon (the pious).” [al-An’aam 6:151-153]
The second passage occurs in Soorat al-Israa’, and may be considered as a commentary on the passage quoted above. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him. And that you be dutiful to your parents. If one or them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect, nor shout at them, but address them in terms of honour.
And lower unto them the wing of submission and humility through mercy, and say: ‘My Lord! Bestow on them Your Mercy as they did bring me up when I was small.’
Your Lord knows best what is in your inner-selves. If you are righteous, then, verily, He is ever Most-Forgiving to those who turn unto Him again and again in obedience, and in repentance.
And give to the kindred his due and to the poor and to the wayfarer. But spend not wastefully (your wealth) in the manner of a spendthrift.
Verily, spendthrifts are brothers of the shayaateen (devils), and the Shaytaan (Satan) is ever ungrateful to his Lord.
And if you turn away from them (kindred, poor, wayfarers, etc. whom We have ordered you to give their rights, but if you have no money at the time they ask you for it) and you are awaiting a mercy from your Lord for which you hope, then, speak unto them a soft kind word (i.e., Allaah will give to me and I will give to you).
And let not your hand be tied (like a miser) to your neck, not stretch it forth to its utmost reach (like a spendthrift), so that you become blameworthy and in severe poverty.
Truly, your Lord enlarges the provision for whom He wills and straitens (for whom He wills). Verily, He is Ever All-Knower, All-Seer of His slaves.
And kill not your children for fear of poverty. We provide for them and for you. Surely the killing of them is a great sin.
And come not near to unlawful sexual intercourse. Verily, it is a faahishah [i.e., anything that transgresses its limits (a great sin)], and an evil way (that leads one to Hell unless Allaah forgives him).
And do not kill anyone which Allaah has forbidden, except for a just cause. And whoever is killed (intentionally with hostility and aggression and not by mistake), We have given his heir the authority [to demand qisaas – Law of Equality in punishment – or to forgive, or to take Diya (blood money)]. But let him not exceed limits in the matter of taking life (i.e., he should not kill except the killer only). Verily, he is helped (by the Islamic law).
And come not near to the orphan’s property except to improve it, until he attains the age of full strength. And fulfil (every) covenant. Verily! The covenant will be questioned about.
And give full measure when you measure, and weigh with a balance that is straight. That is good (advantageous) and better in the end.
And follow not (O man, i.e., say not, or do not or witness not, etc.) that of which you have no knowledge. Verily! The hearing, and the sight, and the heart, of each of those you will be questioned by Allaah.
And walk not on the earth with conceit and arrogance. Verily, you can neither rend nor penetrate the earth, nor can you attain a stature like that of the mountains in height.
All the bad aspects of these (the above mentioned things) are hateful to your Lord.
This is part of al-hikmah (wisdom, good manners and high character, etc.) which your Lord has inspired to you (O Muhammad). And set not up with Allaah any other ilaah (god) lest you should be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected (from Allaah’s mercy).” [al-Israa’ 17:23-39]
Perhaps after enjoying reading these verses, you will have a better idea of the Qur’aan than before. May Allaah guide and help you always.
Peace be upon those who follow true guidance.. The Ten Commandments - islamqa.info
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outlawState
Active Member
I am not a "unitarian" because I do not confound God with a single human person. Unitarians and muslims limit God artificially. The ancient early Christian heresy that is now unitarianism was originally called "monarchianism." Islam is a variant of monarchianism. I regard that as a heresy, and so did the orthodox church, long before the Trinity even arose in Christian theology/philosophy. Monarchianism was condemned as a heresy in the 3rd century AD, but Islam resurrected it.
Psalm 113;5 "Who is like the Lord our God."
No-one should seek to limit God or what he can do. I fully concede that on God's throne sits the risen Christ at the right hand of God who is the Father, such that Christ now reigns as God through the power and will of the Father. I repudiate modern unitarianism in the strongest terms, because unitarians do not believe that Jesus was the inherent son of God, even if some think he was adopted later on. I don't believe that. Jesus was the son of God from the moment of conception.
Matthew 22:36-40
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
This is wisdom literature like the books of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes and Psalms. Yet the theology of the bible is far more profound, and you will never know it unless you investigate it from the Christian perspective. What you think you know about Christianity only scratches the surface. I would encourage you to read the gospels because only then will you understand what Jesus actually taught, which is justification by faith, apart from the works of the law.
Habakkuk 2:4 " the righteous shall live by his faith."
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I don't appear to be any the wiser. So you're not a Unitarian and not a Trinitarian, but as we shall read on, you appear to hint at dualism.
So going back to the Rabbi's video, you too fall foul of the Torah definition of straying from pure Monotheism.
No different to Islam, love GOD with all your heart and mind, and want for your brother what you want for yourself.
Abu Hamzah Anas bin Malik narrated, the servant of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said :
"None of you will believe until you love for your brother what you love for yourself."
Related by Bukhari & Muslim
Ibn Abbas reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said,
“He is not a believer whose stomach is filled while the neighbor to his side goes hungry.” Related by Sunan al-Kubrā 19049
The wisdom comes from the same source. Islam is nothing new, it just seeks to correct where people strayed in the past, with a message for all time.
I read the 4 Gospels years ago, and saw the Jesus pbuh in mark's Gospel is nothing like the Jesus found in the Gospel of John. I respect the previous Scriptures, but will keep with the final revelation to Mankind, which GOD Himself promised to preserve. The Qur'an together with the Sunnah of the Prophet pbuh equips me with everything I need to strive for success both in this life and the hereafter, insha'Allah (God Willing)
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outlawState
Active Member
The confounding of God with "persons," necessarily portrayed as in the image of mankind, is objectionable. As Jesus said, God is spirit, not flesh. Yet Unitarians and Muslims view God as indivisible like unto a human being, a monarch, a solitary unitary person. This is to make God in the image of man, and necessarily to reduce his power.
As God is the creator of life itself, it is inevitable that God himself will work through life forms, and there is no inherent reason why God himself should not be comprised of different life forms, with the proviso that being spirit, God remains a unitary spirit.
Jesus taught that the Father is the true God, but that on God's throne and "with God" was the Word of God, who is therefore God by being the image of God, and filled with the fullness of God. This is conceptually difficult for humans, but we have to accept that God is completely beyond human understanding.
What is so objectionable about those who reduce God to being just one, or more than one, "person," is that they insist on containing God within human understanding, and the understanding often of very unspiritual people.
Why should the Islamic conception of God be right? Why should a warlord have a better understanding of God than Jesus, who did many miracles and rose from the dead? Even the Jews acknowledged a "messiah" from God, a son of God. They just disagreed that Jesus was that son.
Jesus said "I and the Father are one." That is, one God, one spirit, one unity, to humans, but in heaven they are divisible, but heaven is invisible to men, so that men do not perceive God as divisible. The divisibilty of God is limited to what is revealed in scripture, and by Jesus, by a hierarchical division within a unity, but it is not a divisibility of "persons" like unto human beings, but a divisibility of that which is within God, who is not a "person" but God, who is invisible.
Dualism is nothing to do with it, as that involves the concept of the devil being a monarch, whereas anyone who accepts Christ accepts that the victory over evil is complete so that there is no excuse for evil deeds, which regretably are a feature of many muslims. Indeed there are passages in the Koran and HADITH that shows that Mahomet was a dualist and acknowledged the continuing power of the devil. That is highly objectionable to Christians and a sign of the falsity of Islam, for Christianity teaches that the devil cannot harm a true believer.
But this is a very one sided view of Islam and it mainly pertains to intra-islamic relations. There are many objectionable passages in the Koran against Jews and Christians.
The Jesus of Mark and of John are identical. They just give different sides of the same story.
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NO we don't reduce his Power and Might, that is something you do to justify the water solution.
You want me to contemplate My Lord and Master, who is above the Heavens and unlike anything in Creation, saw it fit to become a human being. Let's be reasonable and give this idea some thought:
Please take 10 mins out or so and reflect:
Everything explained in the 2 videos is contained within the FIRST HEAVEN
There are SEVEN such Heavens:
The Footstool of GOD is above the Seven Heavens and that's before we talk about the Throne of GOD.
So surely, GOD by your own definition of remaining a 'unitary spirit', would not need to become flesh and dwell amongst us.
Qur'an 40:57
The creation of the heavens and the earth is definitely a greater thing
than creation of mankind, however, most of mankind knows not.
Quran 65:12
God it is who has created seven heavens, and similar number of earths, The commandments comes down among them slowly,
that you may know that God is Able to do all things, And that God surrounds all things in knowledge
GOD has always Created and has no need to become his 'human' creation in anyway, way, shape or form to know us better than we know ourselves.
Greek mythology written by a non Jew and likely from the Gospel of John. Originally borrowed from the works of Philo who had adopted the term Logos from Greek philosophy, using it in place of the Hebrew concept of Wisdom (sophia) as the intermediary (angel) between the transcendent Creator and the material world. Some scholars argue that the prologue was taken over from an existing hymn and added at a later stage in the gospel's composition.
Raymond E. Brown, “The Gospel According to John.”
The Qur'an makes it clear:
And they say, "The Most Merciful has taken [for Himself] a son."
You have done an atrocious thing. The heavens almost rupture therefrom and the earth splits open and the mountains collapse in devastation.
That they attribute to the Most Merciful a son.
And it is not appropriate for the Most Merciful that He should take a son.
There is no one in the heavens and earth but that he comes to the Most Merciful as a servant. 19:88-93
As demonstrated, the lack of spiritual understanding is on the part of those who accuse others of limiting GOD.
Putting your dig aside, their core message was exactly the same.
Indeed if you examine the message of the Prophets, then it is the Christian understanding which is at odds with previous revelation. Jesus pbuh Himself said, "the greatest commandment is, 'Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is ONE.'"
Jesus pbuh was at one with the Father in purpose, in mission if you wish. Jesus pbuh also told his Disciples, they too could be at one with him. Jn 17:21
Muslims would agree GOD can give power and authority to whomever He wishes, for a time. Indeed we all await the return of Jesus pbuh and know he will rule the whole World.
1 Cor 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God" has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
It's a feature of Billions of humans since man was created. After Jesus pbuh was taken up to GOD, his followers were still offering sin sacrifices for unintentional 'evil' sins.
The power of Satan is nothing to GOD. I don't think you understand who Satan is in Islam. I'm assuming you think him to be some kind of Angel, which is the case with Christianity?
What do you mean Satan can't harm a true believer; He can't cause them physical harm, spiritual harm?
Qur'an is mankind's last warning, so yes gives Polytheists, Atheists, Agnostics, Jews and Christians plenty of warnings. This is a mercy from GOD, so no one who has heard the message can plead ignorant when they return to HIM.
I don't buy that:
27 “Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, ‘Father, save Me from this
hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify Your name.” Then a
voice came out of heaven: “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.” " Jn. 12:27-28 (NASB)
vs
34 And He *said to them, “My soul is deeply grieved to the point of death; remain here and keep watch.” 35 And He went a little beyond them, and fell to the ground and began to pray that if it were possible, the hour might pass Him by." Mk. 14:34-35
(NASB)
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outlawState
Active Member
You do reduce his power and might by arbitrarily insisting that "God had no son."
Surah 19
88. And they say, “The Most Merciful has begotten a son.”
89. You have come up with something monstrous.
90. At which the heavens almost rupture, and the earth splits, and the mountains fall and crumble.
91. Because they attribute a son to the Most Merciful.
92. It is not fitting for the Most Merciful to have a son.
You deny the power of God. You deny the Old Testament and the New Testament. If God has chosen to beget a human son, out of himself, whom are you to deny it? This is the reality - "you deny the New and Old Testament."
Jesus was a "messenger" son of God. He was not a created human, but a human generated by God. We can agree that he was a human, but you limit the power of God when you say he himself could not generate a human. Why not? You provide no answers, except to limit God's power.
Yes but you forget that Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament.
"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." (Psalm 2:7)
"Behold, a (literally 'the') virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel (meaning 'God with us')" (Isaiah 7:14). "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: . . . and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6).
"Kiss the Son, . . . Blessed are all they that put their trust in him" (Psalm 2:12). HMM
Jesus did not deny the Lord is One. He said "I and the Father are one." John 10;30.
"One in spirit."
Jesus is already ruling the world, as he rose from the dead, but because you are not spiritually discerned, you don't understand it.
Rev1:18 "I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."
You said it "25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet." He is reigning, right now.
Only for a short time. The Old Covenant soon passed away and was dead by AD70.
Satan was an angel, now a demon & confined to earth.
Spiritual harm. Physicial harm can arise by the actions of 3rd parties who own the devil.
The Koran is no "last warning." The Koran is about arabic nationalism. It may have been a warning to pagan Arabs steeped in idolatry, but it is irrelevant to Christians and Jews. In any event, the history of Islam is a history of warfare and persecution.
As Jesus said Luke 6 "43No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44For each tree is known by its own fruit. Indeed, people do not gather figs from thornbushes, or grapes from brambles. 45The good man brings good things out of the good treasure of his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil treasure of his heart. For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks."
The history of Islam is a history of arrogance and warfare. It is a religion of man, not God, and you are extremely dishonest for refusing to accept all those passages in the Koran that advocate war.
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You watched the videos I previously posted and still ask if the Creator of everything shown has a Son?!
As you know the Qur'an says in Surah 19:92. It is not fitting for the Most Merciful to have a son.
Christians often quote the following verses to try and prove that Islam is the Anti-Christ:
1 John 2
22 Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
What does the Glorious Quran say about the “Father” and “Son” titles:
The Qur'an is against the exaggerated and inflated meanings of the words, which ultimately the polytheistic religion of trinity was born out of.
Allah Almighty Said: "And they say: "(God) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! they are (but) servants raised to honour. (The Noble Quran, 21:26)"
This is what we will be called in Heaven, and Allah Almighty also does recognise "Son of GOD" title in the Glorious Quran, but Says that they are no more than pious "....servants raised to honour. (The Noble Qur'an, 21:26)". Nothing Divine about them except that they exist with Allah Almighty Eternally in Heaven. But as far as Divine Authority and Power, all Divine Authority and Power belong to Allah Almighty Alone and none else.
Iblis, who later became Satan, used to be a pious Servant. But because he and his followers disobeyed GOD Almighty, they were cursed and kicked out of the Community of GOD Almighty:
Here are some Bible facts regarding "FATHER" and "SON":
Allah Almighty is the Believers' only Guardian (المولى): See Noble Verses 8:40, 22:13, 22:78
In Arabic we say ولي الأمر , which means "The Legal Guardian". المولى is derived from the root word ولي .ولي also means a chosen friend to Allah Almighty.
FRIENDS = SONS in the Bible and Quran (ولي , وليهما and خليلا). We further read the following in the Bible:
Isaiah 41:8 "But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend,
Chronicles 20:7 Our God, did you not drive out the inhabitants of this land before your people Israel and give it forever to the descendants of Abraham your friend?
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
So being GOD Almighty's "SON" in the Bible is equal to being GOD Almighty's "FRIEND". Now compare this to the following from the Holy Quran:
[002:257] Allah is the friend (ولي) and patron of those who believe. He brings them out of the depths of darkness into light. While those who do not believe, have the forces of evil as their friends; they lead them out of light, into the very depths of darkness. Such ones shall be the inmates of the fire. They will stay there forever.
[003:122] (And remember) when the two groups among you lost heart (and almost fell out), even though Allah was their Friend and Protector (وليهما)? In Allah (alone), should the believers place their trust!
[004:125] Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to God, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For God did take Abraham for a friend (خليلا).
So the Bible's "FATHER" & "SON" for GOD Almighty and the Believers is clearly metaphoric, and it only means that GOD Almighty:
1- Is the Protector.
2- Is the Friend.
3- Is the Guardian.
Also, BEGET = CHOSE.
King James Bible Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Allah Almighty used اصطفاك اصطفيتك يصطفي اصطفى اصطفينا to mean to Choose a Servant in Noble Verses 27:59, 3:33, 3:42, 7:144, 22:75, 35:32, 38:47, 39:4 in the Glorious Quran.
So clearly Islam is in harmony with GOD Almighty being our:
- Guardian
- Friend
- Protector
- And the One who Chose us.
And we definitely believe that Jesus is the Messiah.
One last important point: Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus ever called "from the Seed of GOD" or "the Seed of GOD". We do have "Jesus is from the seed of David" (Psalm 132:10-11, Romans 1:3). But never from GOD!
GOD has no seed according to both the Bible and the Qur'an.
One of Islam's great Scholars Al-Ghazali has argued that Jesus pbuh usage of some special metaphoric terms for God, such as Father and towards himself as god's Son and Lord is lawful and acceptable. Every prophet has the right to use some special metaphorical
concepts to explain the will of God. But, at the same time, God can forbid these to
other believers, for example using these words was forbidden for Muslims.
Why has God named Himself as a Father? According to Al-Ghazali the word
Father in the Old and New Testaments does absolutely not refer to a biological
fatherhood, but directly to a transcendent God. Why Father? For Al-Ghazali there
exist some similarities between God, kindness of God and that of a father's
kindness, love and will towards their servants and children. All fathers usually
want their children to be successful and to stay in a secure state continuously. This
tendency is similar to God's will towards His obedient servants. The relationship
between God and His servants can be best explained by the relationship between a
Father and his son. Naturally such a distinction has given rise to a new
problem: why did God name Himself as a Father and not a mother?
The use of the word Son for Jesus may be the result of the similarities between
Jesus and a good son. A son, who submits to his father and respects him, will be
regarded as a lovely son. Jesus was a very good servant and submissive person; as
for his obedience, God has named Jesus and other prophets as God's Son. Actually
the title of Son originated from the Old Testament. This reality is expressed in
the Psalms as follows: As a father has compassion on his children, so the LORD
has compassion on those who fear him; (Ps 103:13).
When Christians use the term son of GOD, they take it beyond what is acceptable.
In the Qur'an, by which so ever (name) ye will, invoke Him: He hath most excellent names (17:110)
And it is evidently true that God is exalted above all names; that all the names and attributes of God are created by Him. So, none of them are describing Him in His Essence.
But, the Manifestations of God have indeed revealed names and attributes of God. And, although infinitely limited, we can become closer to Him by reflecting on these names. In fact, in Islam there are 99 names of God.
The term father is not one of them, as usage of it leads to confusion and misunderstanding, (see Christianity).
Allah swt does use the term Rabb, which means one who cherishes, raises, nurtures, Nourishes. In Islam, Ar-Rabb is often used to address Allah, although Ar-Rabb is not one of the 99 names (or attributes) of Allah swt. This word is akin to father, but without all the confusion attached.
The child to be born Isaiah 7:14 was fulfilled 560 before Jesus pbuh, we only need read into Isaiah 8..
“he (Isaiah) approached the prophetess and she conceived (tahar) and bore (taled) a son and God said to me: Name the child “Maher-shalal-hash-baz” which means (the spoil speeds the prey hastens). For before the child shall know how to cry my father my mother the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Sammaria will be carried away before the king of Assyria.” Isaiah 8:4
Isaiah 9:6 obviously refers to Isaiah 8:4 and indeed Jewish History records the child was indeed a Wonderful Counsellor:
The Sign of Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz - Isaiah Commentary
Just as the Disciples too were one in Spirit with Jesus pbuh?
"...that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me." John 17:21
I look forward to his return, giving him the opportunity to clarify matters for all, insha'Allah.
Well rather than pray and worship him as the Servant of God, (Doulos in Greek, which also means Slave), we Muslims direct our worship to the owner of the vineyard;
Matthew 21:33-46
33 "Hear another parable. There was a householder who planted a vineyard, and set a hedge around it, and dug a wine press in it, and built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into another country. 34 When the season of fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants, to get his fruit; 35 and the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first; and they did the same to them. 37 Afterward he sent his son to them, saying, `They will respect my son.' 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, `This is the heir; come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.' 39 And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. 40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" 41 They said to him, "He will put those wretches to a miserable death, and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons." 42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the scriptures: `The very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? 43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it."
Here the difference becomes obvious. Whereby the "son" refers to the "son of God" i.e. Jesus Christ. A son who is similar to his Father, but not completely in the Father's image. That is, in fact, the similarity between the son and the father; similar but not identical. This was the status of Jesus, he was up there in rank, a very high and respectable rank of a Prophet of God, who was similar to God in image, but he was not "the owner of the vineyard".
Who was the owner? <<<<The One Alone worthy of worship.
Jews would remind you the Torah talks about an everlasting Covenant, what evidence do you have to say it ended by the Temple destruction of 70 A.D.?
Satan wasn't a Angel, because Angels by their very nature do not disobey GOD.
Spiritual harm; there are hundreds of threads right here on this Board from believing Christians, who are having all sorts of spiritual issues. You appear to be a rare and blessed individual not to suffer from any spiritual harm. You should head over to those threads and impart your spiritual knowledge, and work your miracle.
Arab Nationalism?! Don't be silly, the Qur'an is for all mankind. The Torah was sent to the Jews alone, and even Jesus pbuh said he was sent to the lost house of Israel only. I appreciate after he left, verses were tampered with and the message was to be proclaimed to 'all' Nations.
Warfare and persecution:
The lack of warfare and persecution has puzzled Western Historians for Centuries, and recently revisionists have come up with new theories to explain the lack of destruction of Churches and Synagogues, and the inclusion of many Christians in the armies of the 'believers' as they now like to term them:
Fruits of Islam covered in a small part on post 106 here:
the name of Mohammad in the Old testament
Please post 5 verses and I'd be happy to give you the context citing 3 verses before and after.
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