Are there any arguments for creation...

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fwGod

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Then, should you not offer us the same leeway...rather than making snarky comments about us talking about things in which we have no experience?
Every denomination has different views on any given Bible topic. Am I supposed to ignore mine but allow you to have yours?

Could there be a discussion, a presenting of views without seeking to convert each other?
 
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fwGod

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Every denomination has different views on any given Bible topic. Am I supposed to ignore mine but allow you to have yours?

Could there be a discussion, a presenting of views without seeking to convert each other?

Maybe discussing just isn't going to work out.
 
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Ken-1122

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. Atheism takes faith to believe that something, an effect, came from nothing which goes against the scientific rule if you will that effects always have a cause.
Just because you might have heard about an atheist believing something; an effect, came from nothing does not mean that is what all atheists believe.
 
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Speedwell

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From a Biblical frame reference.. there is no specified recorded age of the Earth. So it could be younger or older than 13.8 bil.

However I take the Genesis week of creation literally that it only took 6 days.

So. the universe could be 13 bil yrs old. And Earth itself and the solar system was created in 6 days. The planets included in the mention of the stars of the creation week.

For some time I accepted the gap theory that would theoretically, theologically allow for a time gap between the present Earth and the prior preAdamic world. The same Earth going through more than one replenishing of the environmental Earth. I've heard that from some denominations among the Jews.

Not all Jews would believe it.

The earth is certainly a lot older than 4004 years.. or 6000 years. I've heard one Bible based science teaching that presents 10,000 years.

However, I disagree with some who have formed a doctrine - as contradictory as it may seem for me to hold these positions - that doctrine says in brief that each day counted in the creation week was longer than 24hrs in length. And then at some unknown of timeframe the day shifted to be just 24hrs in length and has stayed that until now and for as long as the Earth shall exist.

That sort of thing, in my opinion is manipulating the words of the text in order to use it as support for their doctrine. Stretching the day for the purpose of a billion time rate rather than considering God to be able to do the creating within an unchanged unchanging 24hr day/6 days timeframe.

I suppose that some will disagree with my using a verse or two to support my view of the gap theory. But there's nothing set in stone to provide a definite age of the Earth, or for the age of the universe.

This is more opinion than an authoritative group of Bible proof texts. So no need to take any of this too seriously.

Perhaps the topic isn't yielding anything useful. You decide.
It depends. Do you think that the conclusions of science which contradict a literalist interpretation of Genesis are part of an atheist conspiracy to destroy Christianity?
 
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46AND2

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Every denomination has different views on any given Bible topic. Am I supposed to ignore mine but allow you to have yours?

Could there be a discussion, a presenting of views without seeking to convert each other?

The red herrings are strong with this one.
 
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Ophiolite

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Maybe discussing just isn't going to work out.
That may well depend upon your goals and expectations. What are they?

In the meantime, here are some thoughts you may find useful, presented as commentary on some of your posts.
I was referring to what I've come across of some Atheists. [Atheists believing something can come from nothing] I didn't mean that all have that same position. Just like Christians have different positions of faith and interpretation of scriptures. Many people have their own way of looking at what they're looking at.
In all instances that I have seen those claiming "something from nothing" fell into one of three categories.
1. Well informed individuals who failed to define what they meant by "nothing" and so accidentally misled others who used a more colloquial definition of the word.
2. Moderately well informed individuals in the media who wanted/needed to create startling headlines.
3. Ill informed individuals who tend to believe "whatever" and lack discrimination.

I have also noted a handful of individuals who, on philosophical grounds, refuse to rule out the possibility of something arising from what you agree was nothing. But please note that refusing to rule something out is quite different from believing that something is so.

By the way, I've seen categories 1 and 3 expressed by both atheists and Christians, so I don't think the views are constrained by ones personal theology.

Science speaks of cause and effect, but atheism uses a causeless cause to explain an effect.
@Gene2memE already address this, but it merits repeating. I'll use different words.

You are equating atheism and science. That is an error. It is a massive error. It is a damaging error. It damages your perception of science and (since you equate it with atheism) it damages your perception of atheism.

Atheism is not the antithesis of theism. Theism, in most instances leads to certain beliefs and attempts to follow certain behaviours. Most, if not all, of an atheists beliefs have nothing to do with their non-belief in a God. (In many cases that non-belief is not an active thing, it is a disinterest in something considered to be too unlikely to give any thought to.)

Some atheists may think a causeless cause produced an effect, but it's not part of their atheism. In contrast, almost by definition, all Christians believe a causeless cause (God) produced an effect.

Summary : your thinking here is fuzzy and your logic flawed. I recommend a rethink. This rethink will present no challenges to your faith, it will just stop you thinking silly things about atheists.

They at least say that the rate of expansion is according to the speed of light.
Point of information. The rate of expansion exceeds the speed of light.

The thing about believe or lack of belief is that lack of belief in one thing means that there has to be something else to believe. Non belief is actually an impossibility because believing is just the way of human nature.
You are mistaken. Beliefs are, it is true, a convenient and useful tool of thought and decision making, but they are not essential and - because of the manner they are generated - they can be misleading, even dangerous.

I don't believe anything. Rather, I accept certain explanations as being the best current explanations for what I am apparently observing. Perhaps I am "actually" dreaming; perhaps I am a figment of your imagination with rudimentary consciousness; perhaps I am a super-intelligent alien playing an immersive computer game; perhaps I am in the Matrix.

For practical purposes I accept that the most likely explanation is "what you see is what you've got". I am, it seems, a specimen of homo sapiens on the third planet from the sun in a non-descript solar system, some 2/3 from the centre of a large, but not excessively so, galaxy that is one among billions.

When it comes to the details, the explanations I accept change from time to time as new information comes to light, or new perspectives or old information become available.
 
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Speedwell

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We have evidence that there is not.
Is't it proper to go with the evidence?
Not in this case. You have posed a form of the "black swan" dilemma. The most you can claim is that so far we have not discovered life anywhere else in the universe.
 
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SkyWriting

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Not in this case. You have posed a form of the "black swan" dilemma. The most you can claim is that so far we have not discovered life anywhere else in the universe.

Quite a bit different. We have spent a lot of resources searching for life....including all the funding for all of space travel, ever. It was always a search for life.

Voyager one and two both had a record album for Aliens to enjoy listening to.

59xJZCaKcSvryeXjpQZKAHJH__ttEiCJfdPX27sgv0gEFSGllxUs2UkahKNRrz78g_PPfEGIj0TJycS2qsS0BQbwSQjLiGFKzHrf9EvsMlyQuc_xAL_A2Y_BjkFPQp6vErl1saywwkzQPbdSe5lvuh0OO2f3_Zi1h1WPWxJWjNp0PjYGDv8


Roger-and-ET.jpeg
 
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Speedwell

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Quite a bit different. We have spent a lot of resources searching for life....including all the funding for all of space travel, ever. It was always a search for life.

Voyager one and two both had a record album for Aliens to enjoy listening to.

59xJZCaKcSvryeXjpQZKAHJH__ttEiCJfdPX27sgv0gEFSGllxUs2UkahKNRrz78g_PPfEGIj0TJycS2qsS0BQbwSQjLiGFKzHrf9EvsMlyQuc_xAL_A2Y_BjkFPQp6vErl1saywwkzQPbdSe5lvuh0OO2f3_Zi1h1WPWxJWjNp0PjYGDv8


Roger-and-ET.jpeg
And so, having explored the entire universe, we can agree with you unequivocally that there is no life to be found in it except on the Earth.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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With the use of "no rest for the wicked" and "let there be light" the Atheists are speaking words from the Bible which belies your (collective or individual) hostility against anything to do with God.
It's because you quote from the Bible that I will let you know that non belief is still a form of belief that is used on the negative side of that phraseology coin.
If you really want to use that logic, then you believe in Allah ("The afterlife will be better than this life", Quran 93:4), buddhism ("We are what we think") etc. There are a lot of "biblical" expressions, as well as other commonly used phrases, which appear in other religious texts. I'd suggest you stop you using that argument as it is ultimately self-defeating.
 
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Ophiolite

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Quite a bit different. We have spent a lot of resources searching for life....including all the funding for all of space travel, ever. It was always a search for life.
Nonsense.
1. We have spent a tiny amount in terms of what will ultimately be required.
2. The only direct search for life was with the Viking landers and there we abandoned further serious searches despite experimental results that, prior to the landings, would have been taken to indicate life.
3. A substantial amount of the money spent on "space travel" had nothing to do with the search for life.
  • The moon landings and all the manned space effort prior to it was an artifact of the cold war.
  • Most satellite launches are for telecommunication, Earth observation, or intelligence gathering.
  • Interplanetary probes are specifically astronomical and planetological investigations
  • Solar probes - not life connected
  • Etc.
The latest Mars probes and the planned exoplanet studies will look for evidence of life, but your basic assertion is nonsense.

Voyager one and two both had a record album for Aliens to enjoy listening to.
The recordings were a subtle stunt designed to make us contemplate the possibility of intelligent extraterrestrial life and to encourage us to think of ourselves as a united species, not an agglomeration of mutually hostile nations and creeds and races. It wasn't a message to aliens. It was a message to ourselves.
 
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Gene2memE

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We have evidence that there is not.

No, what we have is an absence of evidence that there is. This is very different of evidence there is not.

Is't it proper to go with the evidence?

This is affirming the antecedent/consequent fallacy.

All you can argue is that we have no evidence of life for the planets we're able to examine. That does not mean that the case has been made that there is no life on other planets. It does not even mean that the case has been made that there is no life on the planets we have been able to visit (we may not have found it in our limited window to look).
 
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SkyWriting

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No, what we have is an absence of evidence that there is. This is very different of evidence there is not.
This is affirming the antecedent/consequent fallacy. All you can argue is that we have no evidence of life for the planets we're able to examine. That does not mean that the case has been made that there is no life on other planets. It does not even mean that the case has been made that there is no life on the planets we have been able to visit (we may not have found it in our limited window to look).

You can say that about anything you can imagine.

Logically
it's true that anything is possible and God lives in a castle on the other side of the moon. Perhaps the russians have a moon base there, with God for a neighbor.
The Chinese raise people on the moon and ship them back here. Amazon delivers Prime packages to the moon using the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

But scientifically speaking, there is no life outside of the "life zone" of our planet.
We've checked:

50-years-of-exploration.jpg
 
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Speedwell

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You can say that about anything you can imagine.

Logically
it's true that anything is possible and God lives in a castle on the other side of the moon. Perhaps the russians have a moon base there, with God for a neighbor.
The Chinese raise people on the moon and ship them back here. Amazon delivers Prime packages to the moon.

But scientifically speaking, there is no life outside of the "life zone" of our planet.
We've checked:

50-years-of-exploration.jpg
So what?
 
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Bungle_Bear

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You can say that about anything you can imagine.
No you can't. Let's see how what you claim as "logical" is no such thing:
Logically
it's true that anything is possible and God lives in a castle on the other side of the moon. Perhaps the russians have a moon base there, with God for a neighbor.
The Chinese raise people on the moon and ship them back here. Amazon delivers Prime packages to the moon.
The evidence we have (including pictures of the far side of the moon and claims that God resides outside space & time) indicates these to be false. Amazon makes no claims to be making deliveries to the moon, and I'm sure they'd be shouting from the rooftops if they were. So, logically your claims make no sense.

But scientifically speaking, there is no life outside of the "life zone" of our planet.
We've checked:

50-years-of-exploration.jpg
Nope. We haven't found life, but that doesn't mean it's not there. Repeat after me (and pretty much everyone else who posts here) - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Regarding your claims of God in a castle on the moon, while it's true we haven't demonstrated there is no invisible structure there, we have demonstrated there is no visible structure there. Logically we have demonstrated that claim to be untrue. If you want to claim miracles and supernatural powers then fill your boots, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

*No idea why it keeps putting Quote tags after that "logically" above. Undocumented feature of this site?
 
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Subduction Zone

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Every denomination has different views on any given Bible topic. Am I supposed to ignore mine but allow you to have yours?

Could there be a discussion, a presenting of views without seeking to convert each other?
It would be a good idea to qualify your claims about Christianity. You know that your views are not the views of all Christians, but like many you act as if yours is the only possible correct version. Of course you believe yours but you should admit that you could be wrong. In the sciences concepts are taken as "provisionally true". Some ideas are so well evidenced that they are taken as correct, but deep down inside one must be ready to change.

And if you make a claim, especially a scientific one, you better be ready to support it when people demand support. "That is what I believe" does not cut it in a discussion forum.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Understood. I reciprocate your honesty by declaring your views to be deeply ignorant, severely prejudiced,arrogant, ill-considered and conducive to deepening divisions within society. Good luck with that approach. Ophiolite out.
Actually I’m better informed than you because I don’t need to resort to the ad hominem argument. My views have been held by men and women who established just societies, schools, hospitals, freed slaves and brought advancements in science the world had never seen the line of.
 
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