Are there any arguments for creation...

[SkyWriting]

... that don't ultimately boil down to an argument from incredulity and/or awe?

edited to add for clarification:

By "creation" I'm referring to the typical supernatural creation stories about the creation of the universe, stars, the planets, life, etc.

I'm focused on the existence of matter. Normally, no magic is involved.
If magic was common, then no Creator would be needed.

 

[SkyWriting]

What did you expect? There is no argument for creation except a literal interpretation of the Genesis stories.

The argument is that magic is not an option. So a Creator is required.

 

[Aussie Pete]

So everyone is stupid but you.

You’re part of the reason I keep coming back to CF.

You don't need to be unintelligent to be a fool. Not everyone believes in evolution. Not every non-Christian believes in evolution. When creation is no longer permitted to be taught in schools, it is hardly surprising that the level of belief in Creation is dropping. Even with the distortions, misleading statements and down right lies of some evolutionists, around 45% of Americans reject evolution. So no, I am not alone in rejecting evolution.

 

[Larniavc]

Not every non-Christian believes in evolution.

And not every Christian does not accept evolution.

So where does that leave us?

 

[Gene2memE]

All of nature has some laws or basic tenants. Why would DNA want to continue?

DNA doesn't want anything. But DNA (or earlier simpler molecules) that doesn't self replicate, ceases to exist.

DNA that does self replicate, continues to exist. And because it does, it gets more opportunities to continue to self replicate.

And when it self replicates, sometimes there is variation. And some of these variations are better at self replicating than their predecessors.

The DNA that does self replicate is therefore "selected" to survive by an entity natural process.

Now if only someone had written about this naturally selective process. Like about 151 years ago.

There are no chemical or biological excuses for "ensuring continuation".
That is a law of "life" which has no natural explanation for existing.

You might like to see things continue, but that speaks 100% to a being like you as a creator. You've "proven" the case for a creator that thinks like man does.

Because there are no laws for non-living materials that seek "continuation."

I think its actually a shame you continue to participate, given the above demonstration that you really don't understand even the basics of this topic. You're not doing the creationist side any favors bandying about such fundamental misconceptions. It puts me in mind of a quote from Napoleon.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I disbelieved evolution long before became a Christian, and that in spite of my atheist father promoting evolution to me. When I was at school, evolution and Creation were presented as alternatives. We had the right to choose for ourselves. Evolution made no sense to me then or now.

You are really really lucky. In the US nothing but evolution is allowed. Choice or thinking are not part of the curriculum. Indoctrination and fear rule the day.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

DNA doesn't want anything. But DNA (or earlier simpler molecules) that doesn't self replicate, ceases to exist.

DNA that does self replicate, continues to exist. And because it does, it gets more opportunities to continue to self replicate.

And when it self replicates, sometimes there is variation. And some of these variations are better at self replicating than their predecessors.

The DNA that does self replicate is therefore "selected" to survive by an entity natural process.

Now if only someone had written about this naturally selective process. Like about 151 years ago.



I think its actually a shame you continue to participate, given the above demonstration that you really don't understand even the basics of this topic. You're not doing the creationist side any favors bandying about such fundamental misconceptions. It puts me in mind of a quote from Napoleon.

Examples in real life of DNA that replicated better and doesn’t cause disease please. (Cancer cells do replicate better and they are selected to survive but the host is killed in the process do no one considers that an “advancement in evolution.”)

 

[Gene2memE]

“Unbreakable” bones prompt a hunt for genes

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[DamianWarS]

As are a whole host of other supernatural beings from Zeus to Xenu.

Zeus has a form limited to space and time and he lives on MT Olympus. He can be empirically disproved. I don't know who Xenu is but I gather he is not much different.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

“Unbreakable” bones prompt a hunt for genes

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This needs more investigation and begs the question as to why there aren’t more of these and it hasn’t become the norm in all of humanity if it leads to better survival. What are the liabilities of this? Is there anything they’re more prone to die of?

 

[Speedwell]

You are not aware of arguments for creation.

I haven't seen one from you, certainly. That business about "information" is a real clanger.

Mind you, I'm a Christian, so I already believe in God as "creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible." But I hate to see Christians embarrass themselves with bootless arguments for the existence of God. It just makes us look stupid to atheists--not a fruitful evangelistic technique.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Zeus has a form limited to space and time and he lives on MT Olympus. He can be empirically disproved. I don't know who Xenu is but I gather he is not much different.

They’re pretty much all the same except different vices.

 

[Ophiolite]

That’s a wonderful yet haunting image. I shall shamelessly steal it and use it it my next D&D game.

Thank you. The inspiration, though not the precise imagery, or specific theme, came from Ray Bradbury's Something Wicked This Way Comes. I read it first when I was fourteen or fifteen, then again half a century later. You are most welcome to use the image, but only on condition you seek out the book and read it.
It is a small gem.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I haven't seen one from you, certainly. That business about "information" is a real clanger.

I’ve never heard a coherent counter argument. Not from you either. Just name calling or semantics.

Mind you, I'm a Christian, so I already believe in God as "creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible." But I hate to see Christians embarrass themselves with bootless arguments for the existence of God. It just makes us look stupid to atheists--not a fruitful evangelistic technique.

Since you’ve no cohesive argument for your position your throwing stones makes your glasshouse pretty vulnerable. You have some intellectual evangelism tools you can offer?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I have forgiven him and everyone else I've had a problem with. God demands that of Christians. Towards the end of his life we got on really well. He had his reasons for being mad at God. You know, the one he did not believe existed. A paradox indeed.

Quite a few atheists on these sites are mad at the God they say doesn’t exist. It’s very common.

 

[Speedwell]

I’ve never heard a coherent counter argument. Not from you either. Just name calling or semantics.

When have I called you names? I don't even recall running across you in this forum before.

Since you’ve no cohesive argument for your position your throwing stones makes your glasshouse pretty vulnerable. You have some intellectual evangelism tools you can offer?

I haven't seen a need to put an argument forward for "my position." But if you want one with respect to your misinformed ideas about "informaton" I offer A Mathematical Theory of Communication by C.E. Shannon.
http://people.math.harvard.edu/~ctm/home/text/others/shannon/entropy/entropy.pdf

 

[Speedwell]

Quite a few atheists on these sites are mad at the God they say doesn’t exist. It’s very common.

No, they're more likely just disgusted with the Fundamentalists who are pretending to argue for the existence of God when they are really pushing the literal inerrancy of Genesis.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Quite a few atheists on these sites are mad at the God they say doesn’t exist. It’s very common.

I have a theory that all atheists are angry at God. I have not met every atheist, so I can't prove it.

 

[Speedwell]

I have a theory that all atheists are angry at God. I have not met every atheist, so I can't prove it.

Why would they be angry at a being they don't believe in? If they are angry, I can suggest a cause closer to Earth that sometimes evokes anger in Christians and other theists as well as athiests.

 

[Aussie Pete]

And not every Christian does not accept evolution.

So where does that leave us?

The usual place. You go on living in your self deception and I go on enjoying life to the fullest. I have yet to understand why atheists bother to have a position at all on anything. 70 years then oblivion? Do you not have better things to do than argue with people who are never going to agree with you? If you do win someone over, so what? It is meaningless.