Are their sins that Jesus did not pay for?

ajcarey said:

Not so. Any sin that one hardens their heart in and refuses to repent from will not be covered by Jesus' atonement.

1 John 1:5-7 "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

Revelation 21:7-8: "7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Ephesians 5:3-7:
"3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them."

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Your quoted passages do not include:
"hardens"
"heart"
"refuses"
"repent"
"covered"
"Jesus"
or "atonement."

So I wonder why you chose those.

ajcarey said:

Present, unrepentant sin is never covered by Jesus' atonement- in the sense that it is forgiven.

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So ones goes to Hell because of a poor memory?
So one goes to Hell for not being aware of a sin?
So one goes to Hell for not repenting soon enough?
So one goes to Hell for not praying constantly?

Ephesians 6
18 Praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,

Romans 12
12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer.

Philippians 4
6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

1 Thessalonians 5
16 Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

Oscarr said:

I am aware of the account of Ananias and Sapphira. Of course, we don't really know if they were genuinely converted believers. For all we know they could have been professing believers but with unchanged, still unregenerate hearts.

Their deception, for which they lost their lives, is not sufficient proof that genuine converted believers will blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

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From my understanding, and I could be wrong but so also can you be. I leave this up to God for more understanding of that account. From what I have read, i understand it as they were professing believers. I also understand that nothing can take us out of the Father’s hand, but if one so chooses can leave on one’s own accord. In the end we are all left with a choice.

SkyWriting said:

So ones goes to Hell because of a poor memory?
So one goes to Hell for not being aware of a sin?
So one goes to Hell for not repenting soon enough?
So one goes to Hell for not praying constantly?

Ephesians 6
18 Praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,

Romans 12
12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer.

Philippians 4
6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

1 Thessalonians 5
16 Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

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These verses do not echo your narrative. Also, I see your post twisting someone else’s. Scripture is plain but it is us in our way of thinking that complicates them, rather than taking what God says plainly.
If one does not repent or has an unrepentant heart, that one scripture says are condemned. Scripture also says that God does not want any to perish. God wants all people to Himself, but it’s a choice and He gave us free will for that choice. Just as the angels have free will.

Zachm531 said:

I was watching the predestination debate between Micheal Brown and James White and James said something that intrigued me and i hd never thought of before.

Did Jesus’ work on the cross cover the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?
Also was the sin of “unbelief” covered? And if so, is it possible to not be saved?

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I think your confusion comes the plural use of the word sin. Jesus did not die for sins, but sin.


Notice the verse is all in the singular. He became sin who knew no sin because we are sin. Because we are sin, we are sinners creating more sins in the plural.

What does "unbelief" mean biblically? It means not believing the truth of God, and believing lies instead. Can we have unbelief and belief at the same time? Sure, we can, and we all do. If we didn't all believers would operate in the miraculous all the time, which is not the case. Unbelief can mitigate our belief in Christ, but it does not remove our faith in Christ.

Which brings us to the unpardonable sin. What is it? Jesus said it in Matt 12:32 & 32.


As they say, a verse out of context is a pretext. So what is the context of what Jesus said? He was responding to what the Pharisees had said.


Basically, the Pharisees were calling God (the Holy Spirit) the Devil (Beelzebub). What was unforgivable wasn't the statement. It was the belief behind the statement.

Isaiah said:


The writer of Hebrews also said:


What all this means is that if a person comes to the point of rejecting Christ and convinces themselves, like the Pharisees had, that God is actually evil, and genuinely believe that the devil is good, there is no more chance of repentance and forgiveness. It is a line crossed with no turning back. They have become true reprobates whose hearts towards God is now completely hardened against God.

Our salvation rests upon one thing only, not our works but who we are. In Adam we are sin, in Christ we are his righteousness. Our fight of faith is to hold onto that one truth. Christ fully satisfied the requirements of God for righteousness and has freely given his righteousness to all will accept it.

The devil and the world system assault this foundation by putting responsibility for our salvation upon us in terms of works. But those who walk with Christ see his goodness as he pours his blessings on us daily. It is the goodness of the Lord the leads us (and keeps us) in repentance.

PS
The number 1 assault on our faith is slander by the devil against God. The devil wants us to believe that God is mean, wrathful, a rewarder of works only, who is never pleased with us. It began in the Garden of Eden, "Has God said..." was meant to cause doubt in God's good intentions towards Adam and Eve. And he continues in this same strategy. Our struggle of faith is in resisting these lies and holding fast until the end of our lives, the incredible goodness of the Lord.

My personal hero, Polycarp, was told that if he repudiated Christ he would not be executed. He responded, "Eighty and seven years the Lord has been good to me, how could I deny him now?" Polycarp understood that God had always been good towards him, even before he came to faith in Christ.

Zachm531 said:

I was watching the predestination debate between Micheal Brown and James White and James said something that intrigued me and i hd never thought of before.

Did Jesus’ work on the cross cover the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?
Also was the sin of “unbelief” covered? And if so, is it possible to not be saved?

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Uh.... wouldn't that make the "unforgivable sin" a "forgivable sin"...... Just say'n.

Uh... if you don't believe... you are an "unbeliever" right? If you don't believe... how can you be saved.?
Also, if you don't believe.. why would you care?

It's totally possible to "not be saved".... the majority of those that live will fall into this category.

SkyWriting said:

God makes claims that He is the one who hardens hearts.
God's argument takes away the thunder from your hands
were it does not belong.

Exodus 4
21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 9
12 But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

Exodus 7
2 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt,

Exodus 8
But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart and would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

Exodus 10
20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the people of Israel go.

Romans 9
18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

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God only hardened Pharaoh's heart in giving him over to bad counsel based on the tendencies which he (Pharaoh) already was expressing. The Bible makes man responsible for his own sin, rebellion, and hardness of heart. Your belief is exceedingly wicked in that it makes God the author of man's sin, pride, and hardness of heart.

Psalm 96:7-11 "7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. 10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: 11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest."

SkyWriting said:

Your quoted passages do not include:
"hardens"
"heart"
"refuses"
"repent"
"covered"
"Jesus"
or "atonement."

So I wonder why you chose those.

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Because they are all implied. If one does not walk in the light and commits sin against light they are hardening their heart, refusing to repent, and not covered by Jesus' atonement.

And question for you: Why would you express grievance with me for hardening my heart and refusing to repent so as to believe in your Calvinism when you also believe that God is the one who hardens hearts?

SkyWriting said:

So ones goes to Hell because of a poor memory?
So one goes to Hell for not being aware of a sin?
So one goes to Hell for not repenting soon enough?
So one goes to Hell for not praying constantly?

Ephesians 6
18 Praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,

Romans 12
12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer.

Philippians 4
6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

1 Thessalonians 5
16 Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

Click to expand...

One goes to hell for saying no to God's authority and refusing to walk in the Truth which they know or which they willfully choose not to know. Your knit-picking is really an attempt to provide a license to do just this. But God is not mocked; and every example of a wicked person in the Bible proves my point two sentences back.

ajcarey said:

One goes to hell for saying no to God's authority and refusing to walk in the Truth which they know or which they willfully choose not to know. Your knit-picking is really an attempt to provide a license to do just this.

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Do all my examples fail your imagined rule then?
They are pretty basic problems....not nitpicking in the least.

So ones goes to Hell because of a poor memory?
So one goes to Hell for not being aware of a sin?
So one goes to Hell for not repenting soon enough?
So one goes to Hell for not praying constantly?

But God is not mocked; and every example of a wicked person in the Bible proves my point two sentences back.

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11 One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. 12 Looking this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.

Seems fairly wicked.


9When they heard this,a they began to go away one by one, beginning with the older ones, until only Jesus was left, with the woman standing there.10Then Jesus straightened upb and asked her, “Woman, where are your accusers?c Has no one condemned you?”

11“No one, Lord,” she answered. “Then neither do I condemn you,”
Jesus declared. “Now go and sin no more.”

No repentance? No response from her at all?
She is forgiven with no effort on her part at all?
She is forgiven before she does or says anything?
Before she knows who she is talking to?

Oscarr said:

We are forgiven because Jesus paid the price. Forgiveness is conditional. If we sin, we have to pay the penalty. "If you do the crime, you need to do the time". God cannot just forgive when there is a penalty to be paid. It would be against justice, and God is a God of justice as well as mercy.

This is basically Christianity 101, and I would suggest you get a book teaching the basics of salvation and how we can receive mercy and forgiveness and how does the finished work of Christ on the cross achieve that for us.

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If you do the time it was not forgiven, but paid for.
No, God's Love is great enough to forgive 100%.
Actually, it is totally just not to have payment for forgiven crimes.
It would be unjust to pay for a crime which was 100% forgiven.
Some people were 100% forgiven prior to the cross and there is no mention of the cross at the time they were forgiven.
If God needs something besides His Love to forgive than He is lacking something so what do you feel God is lacking?
Are you being asked to forgive others unconditionally, yet God cannot do it?

As I read and understand Jesus had already died before I was born. So He knew every sin I would ever do every sin I would never repent of and for sin that price has already been paid. I can not do a sin today that Christ missed. As John said.. behold the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.

So.. you had a dept.. someone paid it for you. But YOU have to receive it to have it. We that believe in Jesus Christ still have sin and the word makes it clear that sin will never enter heaven. I am like Paul.. its no longer I that sin but sin that is in me. For that which is born of God does not sin. Its that NEW man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. It can not sin. My flesh LOVES to sin..

There are countless people of God that have died and forgot to repent of all there sins. Yet.. are in heaven with the Father. Much of this ..forgive me is meat. I sin now as my kids do against me. There are kids out side this house.. their not mine I don't know them. But my kids can still hurt me right now..but they are my kids no matter what. Be very hard lol but I could forgive them for ever.. yet they can still do something right now to hurt me. For that they would say sorry.

But I wouldn't judge them nor condemn them.. I already forgave them. What would I be remembering? Sorry.. but whats going to really truly hurt you and me is when we stand before Him and some of us knowing what we did.. the sin after knowing Him.. to find out. He forgave you already and does not hold it against you. Thats gonna hurt. For no one we have ever known loves us like this.. song playing right now "Reckless Love/Even if.. Mass Anthem".. WOW again.. perfect timing as I am tying..

All here.. do you want to go sin? Think.. pause.. no.. yet part of you does.. part is the flesh the other is you.. the NEW you. RECKLESS LOVE! LOVE YOU FATHER.. thank you so much..

SkyWriting said:

Do all my examples fail your imagined rule then?
They are pretty basic problems....not nitpicking in the least.

So ones goes to Hell because of a poor memory?
So one goes to Hell for not being aware of a sin?
So one goes to Hell for not repenting soon enough?
So one goes to Hell for not praying constantly?



11 One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. 12 Looking this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.

Seems fairly wicked.


9When they heard this,a they began to go away one by one, beginning with the older ones, until only Jesus was left, with the woman standing there.10Then Jesus straightened upb and asked her, “Woman, where are your accusers?c Has no one condemned you?”

11“No one, Lord,” she answered. “Then neither do I condemn you,”
Jesus declared. “Now go and sin no more.”

No repentance? No response from her at all?
She is forgiven with no effort on her part at all?
She is forgiven before she does or says anything?
Before she knows who she is talking to?

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Okay, let's analyze your examples then.

Poor memory. For what reason? Would you not take issue if someone were so disrespectful that they forgot to drive around the speed limit and in the process killed someone you loved? Would you not take issue if someone who worked for you did the same thing which you had recently fired another for? You know what is blameworthy and what is not when it comes to a poor memory. And if someone's memory is poor in a manner which they are blameless over, then they are not violating light- so that in itself would not make them a transgressor against God and send them to hell.

Not being aware of a sin. Same basic principles as in the above paragraph on poor memory. There are blameworthy reasons to not be aware of a sin and blameless reasons. You know the difference when it comes to others crossing you. Those who are walking in the light are cleansed from all their sins by Christ's blood, including their unconscious sins which God deems they reasonably could not have known better about at the moment. Walking in the light itself, growing as a Christian, and understanding God's Word better will increase one's awareness to sin- and thus increase their accountability as they grow. This is why the narrow way that leads to life gets even narrower as one continues on it.

Not repenting soon enough. God decides the deadline on repentance. With Ananias and Sapphira, they didn't really have any chance after their great transgression due to the premeditated and totally deliberate nature of what they did in lying to the Holy Ghost. No doubt they had hardened their heart a lot to get to that point. God is not out to zap people dead and send them to hell the moment they go off course. But we have no right to assume extended deadlines ourselves. That is mocking God and not fearing Him appropriately. "He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy." (Proverbs 29:1)

Not praying constantly. The Bible never commands us to pray constantly in the sense you are trying to say. Pray without ceasing on the other hand means what Jesus said in the gospels in Luke 18. "And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint" (Luke 18:1) It is unreasonable to pray constantly in the sense of every single second or even every minute or even every hour. To give up seeking God and throw in the towel to the devil though so that you give up regularly praying altogether, that sure will send a person to hell. When the Son of Man comes shall he find faith on the earth? (Luke 18:8) is how Jesus concluded His parable about praying always and not fainting.

Moses: The Bible never says he was a murderer. He was defending another Israelite from excessive abuse by an Egyptian slavemaster. His looking this way and that way may have been hesitance to do what is right regarding defending another due to the trouble it could have gotten him in with the Egyptians (and he ended up being in trouble with them anyways and having to flee Egypt). He shouldn't have needed to look around to defend another in need of defense, but his heart even then was to defend the weak and to aid the people of God in their oppression- and he followed through in doing that despite possible hesitance on his part.

Look at Scripture's own testimony of Moses who you claim was wicked: Hebrews 11:24-29-
"24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. 29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned."

John 8:9-11: Are you really serious? The woman saved from stoning wasn't automatically forgiven. Jesus saved her from an unjust stoning (where was the man she committed adultery with?). The accusers were unjust, partial, and the whole trial itself was a mockery to falsely accuse Jesus and not rather to actually do what God's Law said. Jesus not condemning her was simply not agreeing to stone her like her partial accusers expressed eagerness to do. Did you not notice how Jesus told her to go and sin no more? That is the equivalent of saying she needed to repent, submit to God's authority and walk in the light to be right with God- a basic Bible truth which you are quarreling with.

And please now answer my previous question which you evaded: "And question for you: Why would you express grievance with me for hardening my heart and refusing to repent so as to believe in your Calvinism when you also believe that God is the one who hardens hearts?"

Oscarr said:

No truly converted believer will ever blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Therefore, if there are church members who do, then they are not true converts to Christ regardless of how religious and faithful to their churches they are.

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Meh, there was a warning twice Jesus gave, and then even then it was not committed. Now no Jesus to go to the different pharisee churches to advise them.

Swan7 said:

From my understanding, and I could be wrong but so also can you be. I leave this up to God for more understanding of that account. From what I have read, i understand it as they were professing believers. I also understand that nothing can take us out of the Father’s hand, but if one so chooses can leave on one’s own accord. In the end we are all left with a choice.

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This is why Paul said at the beginning of 1 Corinthians that he did not allow anyone to judge him in the way he conducted himself, nor did he judge himself; but left all judgment to his Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ.

bling said:

If you do the time it was not forgiven, but paid for.
No, God's Love is great enough to forgive 100%.
Actually, it is totally just not to have payment for forgiven crimes.
It would be unjust to pay for a crime which was 100% forgiven.
Some people were 100% forgiven prior to the cross and there is no mention of the cross at the time they were forgiven.
If God needs something besides His Love to forgive than He is lacking something so what do you feel God is lacking?
Are you being asked to forgive others unconditionally, yet God cannot do it?

Click to expand...

I am not sure whether you really do understand what the death and resurrection of Christ was all about. You seem to be saying that God forgives sinners merely because He loves them. You seem to ignore that God is a God of justice, and because all have sinned, and none are righteous, they come under the justice of God and have to pay the penalty for sin.

A gunman has come to court because he went into a mall and killed 50 people. The judge decides because he loves the murderer, to forgive him and let him go. What would you think of that judge? The families of those murdered victims would rise up in protest against the judge for not administering proper justice! So, what would we think of God that we might have to share heaven with the likes of Adolf Hitler, Osama bin Laden, and all the ISIS murderers who beheaded innocent people? We might acknowledge that God might love them, but He certainly wouldn't be loving us by making us share His heaven with those evil people!

Because all are rebels against God and are inclined to a sinful, God-hating lifestyle, slaves to sin, so that any good works are excrement to God, there is a penalty. The Scripture says that the soul that sins shall die. Not only physical death but eternal death, which is a separation from God and everything good that He has created.

So, if you and I were forgiven of our rebellion and sin, the penalty for it had to be paid by someone if not by us. So I will give you three guesses who paid the penalty and how it was paid.

Michael Collum said:

Meh, there was a warning twice Jesus gave, and then even then it was not committed. Now no Jesus to go to the different pharisee churches to advise them.

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Which Pharisee churches are those? Pharisees were a Jewish religious sect. In all my years of my Christian walk I associated with Anglican, Baptist, Charismatic, Pentecostal, and Presbyterian churches, and I met no Pharisees in any of them, so may be you are referring to those churches whose theology you disagree with.

It can be like, there are no true churches except yours and mind, and I am not too sure about yours!

Oscarr said:

Which Pharisee churches are those? Pharisees were a Jewish religious sect. In all my years of my Christian walk I associated with Anglican, Baptist, Charismatic, Pentecostal, and Presbyterian churches, and I met no Pharisees in any of them, so may be you are referring to those churches whose theology you disagree with.

It can be like, there are no true churches except yours and mind, and I am not too sure about yours!

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You know, those churches that if Jesus were alive today, would crucify Him all over again.

Much like the Pharisees who would build up the tombs of the prophets but would have killed them if they lived in the days of the prophets.

Michael Collum said:

You know, those churches that if Jesus were alive today, would crucify Him all over again.

Much like the Pharisees who would build up the tombs of the prophets but would have killed them if they lived in the days of the prophets.

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All churches, including yours and mine, have genuine believers and hypocrites mixed together. Because we cannot see into the hearts of people, we are unable to discern the difference. But the foundation of the true church stands sure, because God knows who are His, because He sees into the hearts of people, while we can see only the outward appearance.

Oscarr said:

All churches, including yours and mine, have genuine believers and hypocrites mixed together. Because we cannot see into the hearts of people, we are unable to discern the difference. But the foundation of the true church stands sure, because God knows who are His, because He sees into the hearts of people, while we can see only the outward appearance.

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Agree.

But considering the age we live in what not with humans traveling around freely in iron beasts, it's like poking out both eyes to not notice the antichrist parallels within the church organizations.

It's more of a "if the shoe fits" thing, not a denomination bashing fest.