Are the rapture and the second coming the same event? (2)

[AlasBabylon]

Yes, Jesus, Elijah and Enoch. Everyone else left their natural body behind.

The belief in separation of a conscious soul from the body in death
is a pagan belief in afterlife. It's not the afterlife taught in the Bible.

During the Reformation, many of the early reformers, including Luther,
believed what the Bible says... that the person sleeps in death totally
unconscious of the passing of time and passing events until Christ returns
to resurrect the dead. Luther said the pagan Roman Catholic teaching
of conscious life of the soul in heaven [or in hell or purgatory] while their
body remains dead, destroys the arguments Christ and Paul used to prove
the resurrection of the dead. Why would a resurrection of the body be
necessary if a disembodied soul is already enjoying heaven ? This seems
to be the main teaching of the apostate churches today... so much so...
that many Christians no longer believe in a resurrection of the dead
which used to be a central Christian belief. Martin Luther said that he
will sleep until Christ knocks on his tomb to wake him up. I have a nice
drawing of Luther protectively holding the Bible. Many times, I look at
that photo and tell Martin Luther... be glad you are blissfully asleep and
do not know what an abomination the world and the church have become.


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[BABerean2]

After reading Ezekiel 38/39...that sound more like a reference to the Armageddon's Battle occurring at the End of The Tribulation.

Ezekiel 39
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God.
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward.

Revelation 19
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Is the Gog Magog War the Battle of Armageddon ?
Gog of Magog - Here a little, there a little - Prophecy

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[Douggg]

After reading Ezekiel 38/39...that sound more like a reference to the Armageddon's Battle occurring at the End of The Tribulation.

Of course Ezekiel 39:17-20 is Armageddon at the end of the great tribulation. The rest of the chapter is from the perceptive of Jesus having returned and looking back over 2000 years.

Ezekiel 38 and Ezekiel 39:1-16, though, is about Gog/Magog taking place right before the 7 years.

The 7 years of burning the war implements is the same 7 years of the 70th week.

The person starts off as the little horn, leader of the EU;
Then Gog/Magog threatens;
Then the little horn mobilizes to stave off the hostilities;
Then Gog/Magog takes place; [Ezekiel 38- Ezekiel 39:1-16]
Then the little horn arrives in Israel, as the prince who shall come;
Then he is perceived in the aftermath of Gog/Magog as the messiah;
Then he confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant resetting the 7 year cycle; deut 31:10-13 [the 70th week begins]
Then 3 1/2 years later, thinks he has achieved God-hood;
Then Satan enters him to carry out the act of going into the temple;
Then God has him killed, Ezekiel 28:1-10;
Then he and Satan find themselves in hell, Isaiah 14, next to the pit;
Then God kicks him out of hell, bringing him back to life;
Then Satan frees the beast unclean spirit from the pit;
Then the unclean spirit enters the come back to life man of sin;
making the person the beast of Revelation 13 for that last 42 months.
Then Armageddon takes place. [Ezekiel 39:17-20]

 

[rickel]

Thanks for the reply.

How do you explain 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, Colton Burpo and the numerous other NDE stories? How do you explain Luke 16:22-23 and Luke 23:43? Our concept of time seems different than that of the heavenly realm.

 

[iamlamad]

Thanks for the reply.

How do you explain 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, Colton Burpo and the numerous other NDE stories? How do you explain Luke 16:22-23 and Luke 23:43? Our concept of time seems different than that of the heavenly realm.

And of course we should mention the story of the rich man and Lazarus. That story, straight from the lips of Jesus Himself, PROVE beyond any doubt that when the heart stops, the spirit and soul slip out and continue right on thinking, seeing, feeling, ect, either in hell and torment or where the righteous go: then to paradise - now to heaven.

 

[iamlamad]

Yes, Jesus, Elijah and Enoch. Everyone else left their natural body behind.

ha ha! You are TOO FUNNY!

NO ONE ELSE has been resurrected yet! That day is still future. When it begins with the dead in Christ rising, God will raise the OLD BODY to life, but will CHANGE it to a resurrection body.

 

[BABerean2]

Dr. Ben Witherington III on the rapture in Matt. chapter 24 and 1st Thess. chapter 4.

Seedbed

Seven Minute Seminary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg8lRGqtMHc

 

[Bible2]

Jerico Miles said in post 943:

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. ~ Luke 10:19

If Luke 10:19 refers to physical protection, then Luke 10:19 could have applied only to the 70 (Luke 10:17). If Luke 10:19 applies to the entire church, then it means that the power of Satan can't hurt obedient believers spiritually. For Satan can hurt and even kill obedient believers physically (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Obedient believers overcome Satan spiritually even when they are physically killed by him (Revelation 12:11). They are more than conquerors spiritually even when they are physically led like sheep to the slaughter (Romans 8:36-37). For death is a gain for obedient believers, as it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). So obedient believers need have no fear of death (Hebrews 2:15).

And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all the obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15). And they will all be resurrected into immortal physical bodies at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53). They will all then reign on the earth with Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). And sometime after that, they will all live forever on a new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5). So no matter what evil forces have done to obedient believers physically in the past, or are doing to them physically now, or in the future, such as during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), all obedient believers of all times will ultimately have the victory (1 Corinthians 15:57; 1 John 5:4, Revelation 12:11, Revelation 15:2).

 

[Bible2]

Jerico Miles said in post 946:

. . . the Church won't be here during the great tribulation.

Actually, it will be.

Note that Jesus spoke specifically of his "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before he spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today (whether Jewish or Gentile), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, whether genetic Jews or Gentiles, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them and their little ones suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

--

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 945:

Then the Beast will be given power over the saints.

That's right.

For Revelation 13:7-10 refers to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10), being allowed to physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some Biblical Christians in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). There are no Biblical Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

But Revelation 13:7-10 doesn't mean that every person in the church will be overcome by the Antichrist. For some in the church will be in God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:6,14-16), and so they will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[rickel]

My all time favorite story in the bible is
Luke 23:42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

I, like the thief, deserve death but Jesus will give me life. Praise the Lord!

 

[Jerico Miles]

Dr. Ben Witherington III on the rapture in Matt. chapter 24 and 1st Thess. chapter 4.

Seedbed

Seven Minute Seminary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg8lRGqtMHc

Well this video definitely proves there's no such thing as a post tribulation rapture. You can't get left behind unless the rapture happens first.

Nice going BABerean2, this one kinda backfire and exploded. It just let's us all know you don't care to be rapture.

Haven't you heard? No such thing as a Yo-Yo Rapture.

 

[iamlamad]

Dr. Ben Witherington III on the rapture in Matt. chapter 24 and 1st Thess. chapter 4.

Seedbed

Seven Minute Seminary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg8lRGqtMHc

Seven minutes of confusion and untruth. However, he confuses with such persuasion!

 

[BABerean2]

error

Well this video definitely proves there's no such thing as a post tribulation rapture. You can't get left behind unless the rapture happens first.

Nice going BABerean2, this one kinda backfire and exploded. It just let's us all know you don't care to be rapture.

Haven't you heard? No such thing as a Yo-Yo Rapture.

It is hard to believe that millions of dollars worth of books and DVDs sit on the shelves of Christian homes and churches from "The Left Behind" series by authors Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins.

How many Christians have sat down with their Bibles and have done a thorough analysis of the context of those "left behind" in Matthew chapter 24?

Apparently, not very many, or they would have seen the problem with the title.




Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


This analysis of scripture fits perfectly with the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13, where the tares are gathered first and burned.

It also fits perfectly with the John chapter 5 simultaneous, one resurrection spoken of by Christ.

Those taken in Matthew chapter 24 are taken and destroyed, while those left behind will remain forever in the presence of Christ.

As for me, I want to be left behind.

 

[Marvin Knox]

As for me, I want to be left behind. [/COLOR][/B]

Well - if you ask to be left behind and don't doubt in your heart - maybe the Lord will grant your prayer.

Seriously though - if anyone is left behind it won't be because he was mixed up on his theology concerning the timing of the rapture.

 

[riverrat]

Well - if you ask to be left behind and don't doubt in your heart - maybe the Lord will grant your prayer.

Seriously though - if anyone is left behind it won't be because he was mixed up on his theology concerning the timing of the rapture.

Its seems to be a salvational issue to BAB2.

 

[Riberra]

Seriously though - if anyone is left behind it won't be because he was mixed up on his theology concerning the timing of the rapture.

The only place in the Bible clearly talking about a rapture -being caught up- is 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 ...however there is no mention of going to Heaven after being caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

Based on what is written Jesus shall descend
from Heaven with the souls of them who sleep in Jesus after their death to be rise (resurrected)...

The question is: how do you manage to interpret this passage as meaning a pre-tribulation rapture and a trip to Heaven to feast during 7 years ?

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Marvin Knox]

The only place in the Bible clearly talking about a rapture -being caught up- is 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 ...however there is no mention of going to Heaven after being caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

Based on what is written Jesus shall descend
from Heaven with the souls of them who sleep in Jesus after their death to be rise (resurrected)...

The question is: how do you manage to interpret this passage as meaning a pre-tribulation rapture and a trip to Heaven to feast during 7 years ?

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Do you believe in a literal Millennium and if so who will populate it?

 

[Riberra]

Do you believe in a literal Millennium

Yes.

and if so who will populate it?

Righteous people that God will choose.Like Noah and his family were selected by God to repopulate the Earth after the flood.

 

[Postvieww]

Do you believe in a literal Millennium and if so who will populate it?

.

Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.