Are the rapture and the second coming the same event? (2)

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ColtonRC

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"For I know the plans I have for you,” says the Lord. “They are plans for good and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope." - Jeremiah 29:11

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John 1:1 (KJV)

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." - 1 John 4:7-8 (KJV)

"And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him." - 1 John 4:16 (KJV)

"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" - 1 John 4:20 (KJV)

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." - 1 John 4:18 (KJV)

"O taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in Him." - Psalms 34:8 (KJV)

"And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment." - 1 John 3:23 (KJV)

"Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins." - 1 John 4:8, 10 (KJV)

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one." - Romans 3:10 (KJV)

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." - Romans 3:23 (KJV)

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus Christ our LORD." - Romans 6:23 (KJV)

"The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." - Matthew 13:41,42 (KJV)

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)

"But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." - Romans 5:8 (KJV)

“In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins:” – Colossians 1:14 (KJV)

"For He [God] hath made Him [Christ] to be sin for us, WHO KNEW NO SIN; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." - 2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)

“For what the law [10 Commandments] could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son [Christ] in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:” – Romans 8:3 (KJV)

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a LAMB WITHOUT BLEMISH and WITHOUT SPOT: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," - 1 Peter 1:18-20 (KJV)

“Therefore as by the offence of one [Eve] judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of One [Christ] the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.” – Romans 5:18 (KJV)

"Who His [Christ] own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by Whose stripes ye were HEALED." - 1 Peter 2:24 (KJV)

"For grace are ye SAVED through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8,9 (KJV)

“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:” – Romans 5:1 (KJV)

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be SAVED. He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:16,17,18 (KJV)

"In whom the god of this world [satan] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the IMAGE OF GOD, should shine unto them." -2 Corinthians 4:4 (KJV)

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My Word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath EVERLASTING LIFE, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." - John 5:24 (KJV)

"For there are Three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these Three are one." - 1 John 5:7 (KJV)

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." - 1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)

"I [Jesus Christ] and my Father [God] are one." - John 10:30 (KJV)

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" - Philippians 2:6 (KJV)

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." - Hebrews 1:8 (KJV)

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." - 1 Timothy 2:5,6 (KJV)

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be SAVED." - Acts 4:12 (KJV)

Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father [God] except through Me" - John 14:6 (KJV)

"And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment." - 1 John 3:23 (KJV)

"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be SAVED, and thy house." - Acts 16:31 (KJV)

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord [Jesus Christ] shall be SAVED." - Romans 10:13 (KJV)

"In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace;" - Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve." - Luke 4:8 (KJV)

"And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped Him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean." - Matthew 8:2 (KJV)

"And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him." - Matthew 8:7 (KJV)

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. (2 Timothy 1:7 KJV)

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; (2 Corinthians 10:5 KJV)

"I have told you all this so that you may have peace in Me [Christ]. Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows. But take heart, because I have overcome the world." - John 16:33 (NLT)

"Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love." - 2 John 1:3 (KJV)

Prayer of Salvation:

“Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner and I do not deserve eternal life. But, I believe You died and rose from the grave to make me a new creation and to prepare me to dwell in your presence forever. Jesus, come into my life, take control of my life, forgive my sins and save me. I am now placing my trust in You alone for my salvation and I accept your free gift of eternal life.”
 
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Marvin Knox

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Yes.

Righteous people that God will choose.Like Noah and his family were selected by God to repopulate the Earth after the flood.
Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
So God selects certain people from the "unsaved" crowd and allows them to go into the millennium?

Is this based on the judgment of sheep and goats from among the nations verses? Or is that something else?
 
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Riberra

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Marvin Knox said:
Riberra said:
The only place in the Bible clearly talking about a rapture -being caught up- is 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 ...however there is no mention of going to Heaven after being caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

Based on what is written Jesus shall descend
from Heaven with the souls of them who sleep in Jesus after their death to be rise (resurrected)...

The question is: how do you manage to interpret this passage as meaning a pre-tribulation rapture and a trip to Heaven to feast during 7 years ?

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
No answer !!! No answer !!! No answer!!!

So, you still have no answer ....

The only place in the Bible clearly talking about a rapture -being caught up- is 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 ...however there is no mention of going to Heaven after being caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

Based on what is written Jesus shall descend

from Heaven with the souls of them who sleep in Jesus after their death to be rise (resurrected)...

The question is: how do you manage to interpret this passage as meaning a pre-tribulation rapture and a trip to Heaven to feast during 7 years ?
 
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BABerean2

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Its seems to be a salvational issue to BAB2.

You are absolutely correct about it being a salvation issue.


Those "taken" in Matthew chapter 24 are the unsaved, who are taken as are the tares in Matthew chapter 13 and burned in the fire.

Those "left behind" in Matthew chapter 24 are those saved by the Blood Atonement of Christ, as in Matthew chapter 13, and are the wheat gathered into the barn.


This passage is further explained in Luke's Gospel.


Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


The Greek word for eagles can also be translated as vultures.

Vultures are gathered together when they eat dead bodies.


(ESV) And they said to him, "Where, Lord?" He said to them, "Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather."



.
 
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Riberra

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So God selects certain people from the "unsaved" crowd and allows them to go into the millennium?
No,the unsaved are taken to be killed...

The others are left to where they are ,among those who are left some will be selected to stay in their flesh and blood body to repopulate the Millennium.

Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night two shall in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Confirmed by:
Zech 14:16
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
 
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iamlamad

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Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.


I never thought of it before, but this seems to say that every nation in the world came against Jerusalem. Another alternative would be that the rest of the nations that did NOT come against Jerusalem either are not in the millennial reign or else not required to go up year after year. I don't think this last scenario is probable. Your thoughts?
 
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Riberra

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I never thought of it before, but this seems to say that every nation in the world came against Jerusalem.
That is easily explainable because the whole World will be united into 10 Kingdoms under one authority (The beast) when they will gather to the battle of Armageddon.
 
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AlasBabylon

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I never thought of it before, but this seems to say that every nation in the world came against Jerusalem. Another alternative would be that the rest of the nations that did NOT come against Jerusalem either are not in the millennial reign or else not required to go up year after year. I don't think this last scenario is probable. Your thoughts?


To enter New Jerusalem, one must enter by one of the twelve gates...
one for each of the twelve tribes of Israel. So there will be quite a
number of people and nations living outside.

Btw... that same chapter gives a brief description how God will keep
the other nations in line. The nation that is not represented in that
yearly pilgrimage... gets no rain.


.
 
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AlasBabylon

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Originally Posted by iamlamad:

I never thought of it before, but this seems to say that every nation in the world came against Jerusalem.

That is easily explainable because the whole World will be united into 10 Kingdoms under one authority when they will gather to the battle of Armageddon.
__________________


Or... it could be 10 presidents who rule consecutively in the United States.

The USA, like ancient Babylon, is a melting-pot of all nations.


.
 
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Riberra

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That is easily explainable because the whole World will be united into 10 Kingdoms under one authority when they will gather to the battle of Armageddon.
Or... it could be 10 presidents who rule consecutively in the United States.

The USA, like ancient Babylon, is a melting-pot of all nations.

Revelation 17

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
 
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AlasBabylon

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Revelation 17

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.



"... ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received
no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. "


Is this not the very definition of a president... one who is not a king...
but rules like a king for a limited time.

It was only after WW2 that constitutional term limits were put in place.
Truman was not under that new law, but chose not to violate it.

Rev also says these 10 kings will hate the harlot and try to destroy her.
This is exactly what has happened since WW2... the systematic destruction
of the USA... racially, culturally, morally, spiritually, economically... no foreign
power did this... it was the US government itself... specifically the presidents
since WW2 and the US Supreme Court who were put in power by the presidents.


.
 
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Marvin Knox

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No,the unsaved are taken to be killed...

The others are left to where they are ,among those who are left some will be selected to stay in their flesh and blood body to repopulate the Millennium.
I don't know that I can accept the idea that the Lord chooses who He will rapture and who He will leave in their natural bodies.

Seems more likely that all those who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them and sealing them will be changed when He comes.

But then - I guess it does have to be a sort of 2-tiered taking up - to believe in a literal millennium and a post tribulation rapture.

Not very "comforting" at all to me.

But if that is something you see as being able to comfort one another with - OK. What ever floats your boat I suppose. :)
 
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Postvieww

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I never thought of it before, but this seems to say that every nation in the world came against Jerusalem. Another alternative would be that the rest of the nations that did NOT come against Jerusalem either are not in the millennial reign or else not required to go up year after year. I don't think this last scenario is probable. Your thoughts?

I do not believe every nation on the planet will fight against Jerusalem. Zech 14:12 says those that do “their flesh shall consume away” sounds nuclear to me, but just my opinion.To your question, Verse 16 says “every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King” I would take from that of the countries involved not everyone was fighting in the battle. Verse 17 “And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain”. The verse does say of all the families of the earth. Does that refer back to those that fought or just all. I don’t know, only Egypt is named.

I also believe all of the countries that the Lord defeats that are named in scripture are Muslim nations. We see the stage being set today for this. I also believe Islam is the antichrist system not the Vatican. I believe the antichrist will come from a Muslim nation. I’m not convinced he has to be a Jew.

Rev 2: 12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Pergamos is in modern day Turkey.

Maybe a few more thoughts that you ask for, but I figured I’d give something for some of the posters to disagree with.
 
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BABerean2

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No,the unsaved are taken to be killed...

The others are left to where they are ,among those who are left some will be selected to stay in their flesh and blood body to repopulate the Millennium.

Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night two shall in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Confirmed by:
Zech 14:16
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Some premills believe those in flesh bodies will be children who were too young to understand the Gospel when Christ returns.

They use the following verse as one of their proof texts.




Isa_11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.


.
 
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AlasBabylon

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Rev 2: 12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Pergamos is in modern day Turkey.


Turkey is part of NATO

.
 
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Postvieww

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So God selects certain people from the "unsaved" crowd and allows them to go into the millennium?

Is this based on the judgment of sheep and goats from among the nations verses? Or is that something else?

I don’t see all the difficulty in this question about who populates the millennial kingdom. After Christ’s second coming.

Zech 12: 8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Second coming and battle of Armageddon. Jews will not be caught up for they are not yet believers in Christ.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

This appears to me the point in time when the Jews realize who Jesus is. After the second coming and Armageddon.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

These are definitely mortals that will enter the millennium. Maybe explain to me how either pre or post would change this outcome? God made promises to his people, they obviously will not be cast out with the tares.

 
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Postvieww

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Turkey is part of NATO

.


How many of those Nato countries are east of the Euphrates River?

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
 
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AlasBabylon

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How many of those Nato countries are east of the Euphrates River?

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.




Most of Turkey is west of the Euphrates river.

Btw... did you know that Bible verse is based upon a well known event
in ancient history... something very important to the ancient Israelites.

God's anointed king in the east, Cyrus, had a brilliant idea how to get
his troops past Babylon's unbreakable strong wall. He diverted the
water of the Euphrates river, so his troops could pass under Babylon's
wall... enabling them to secretly enter Babylon in a surprise attack.

Here is something else interesting... the prophecy of Jeremiah against
Babylon was scrolled up, weighted and thrown into the Euphrates river
at Babylon [Jeremiah 51:60-64.] Decades later when Cyrus dried up
the Euphrates river at Babylon... Jeremiah's prophecy against Babylon
was symbolically released.


.
 
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Marvin Knox

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I don’t see all the difficulty in this question about who populates the millennial kingdom. After Christ’s second coming.

Zech 12: 8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Second coming and battle of Armageddon. Jews will not be caught up for they are not yet believers in Christ.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

This appears to me the point in time when the Jews realize who Jesus is. After the second coming and Armageddon.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

These are definitely mortals that will enter the millennium. Maybe explain to me how either pre or post would change this outcome? God made promises to his people, they obviously will not be cast out with the tares.
So - is it only Jews that will enter the Millennium?
 
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