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Are the OT saints part of the body of Christ?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by claninja, Aug 1, 2017.

  1. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    This is why I have such a problem in continuing to follow the OT. It does nothing for the Gospel message. I just don't see how a person can be Christian and Jew. The Jews had to become Christian or remain Jews (Judaism).

    Abraham knew the day was coming. It was a time of angels. Like Mary, he was told of an event to occur. by angels. Abraham lived by faith only. Truth had not come (yet). And, once again, Jesus tells the Jews that they were not following (the true) God, the Father.

    John:
    53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
    54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
    55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

    So when I read that Abraham saw and talked to God, that Moses heard God and the Lord said, then I hear Jesus say:

    John:
    37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
    38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

    Yes, Abraham was a good man seeking truth. But it didn't exist. He knew it was coming. He was saved by his faith and Jesus surely knew him at the resurrection (when he resurrected the dead).

    The truth has come. It is here. Why would I desire to find it in the OT? I see the Jews waiting. I don't have to wait.
     
  2. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    For one thing they would observe every moment of his life from heaven..... or a physicist might say from a higher dimension of space - time.

    For another..... once Messiah Yeshua - Jesus was glorified he would be in contact with all the Jewish prophets and saints.

    During his near death experience three year old Colton Burpo met John the Baptist, King David, Samson as well as Mary the mother of Yeshua - Jesus.

    Welcome
     
  3. l_ruth_

    l_ruth_ New Member

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    Hi friends, in the New Testament the body is given as an example to show how the church is one, and we are one with Christ since we belong to Him and He is the head of the church (Ephesians 5:23). However, we are also told through the 1st letter to the Corinthians that the Israelites drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from the Rock which accompanied them, which was Christ (1 Corinthians 10:4). Therefore, I do not believe it is consistent, if we are going to harmonise scripture with scripture, to differentiate between Old and New Testament believers as being more one with Christ than each other (which I believe is what we are doing, if we use the example of the body to exclude Old Testament believers)

    Blessings to each and pray this does not confuse
     
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  4. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Jesus did not come to start his own religion, but was born a Jew, raised a Jew, became a Jewish rabbi, had Jewish disciples, is the Jewish Messiah, fulfilled Jewish prophecy, will return as the Lion of Judah, and came to bring fullness to Judaism. At its origin, Christianity was a sect of Judaism. For roughly the first 7-15 years after Messiah's resurrection up until in inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10, all Christians were Torah observant Jews. There is absolutely nothing that says that Jews need to stop being Jews in order to become Christians, and in fact they faced the opposite issue in Acts 15, where they were discussing whether Gentiles had to become Jews in order to be Christians. It is just as false that Gentiles need to become Jews in order to be Christians as it is that Jews need to become Gentiles in order to become Christians.

    In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples broke the traditions of the elders and he responded by asking them why they broke the command of God for the sake of their tradition. He went on to say that for the sake of their tradition they made void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6), that they worshiped God in vain because they taught as doctrines the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9), and that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions (Mark 7:6-9), so what the Pharisees were teaching as the Mosaic Law was actually their own traditions, and this was a major source of conflict between them and Jesus. It is critically important to make this distinction in order to correctly understand what is being said about the laws of men and what is being said about the laws of God because Jesus never spoke against the Judaism that was instructed by God, only against what the Pharisees were teaching.

    According to John 5:46, Jesus said that Moses wrote about him, according to Luke 24:27, Jesus began with Moses and the Prophets interpreting to them all the things in Scriptures concerning himself, according to Hebrews 10:7, the totality of the scroll is written about Jesus, and according to Romans 10:4, a relationship with Jesus is the goal of the Law for all who have faith. The Law is all about Messiah and about how to have a relationship with Him based on faith and love, but the Law can be outwardly obeyed without being inwardly focused on growing in a relationship with God, which is completely missing the whole point of obeying the Law, and why Israel failed to obtain righteousness (Romans 9:30-32), and why Paul considered that to be rubbish (Philippians 3:8).

    Everything that is taught in the NT is dependant on what was taught in the OT. In Acts 17:11, the Bereans were praised because they diligently tested everything that Paul said against OT Scripture to see if what he said was true. The NT authors quoted or alluded to the OT thousands of times in order to establish that it supported everything they said and to show that they did not depart from it. The Law is the way (Deuteronomy 8:6, Jeremiah 6:16-19, Psalms 119:1), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 30:15-20, Proverbs 3:18, Matthew 19:17), Messiah is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6), the Law is God's Word, and Messiah is God's word made flesh, so there is no separating following one from following the other. Jews teaching obedience to the Torah, but they don't teach to follow the Messiah, Gentile believers teach to follow the Messiah, but don't teach obedience to God's Torah, so both have the truth, but both only understand half of it.
     
  5. HeatRamosHidden

    HeatRamosHidden Member

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    The OT "Saints" are saved and in Heaven, but they're not in the Church. These days anyone who's saved is in the Church though. You can be Jewish and Christian, but you'd have to just abandon being under the Old Covenant. Not all Jews are in the Old Covenant, some are Christian. So you can be both Christian and Jewish.

    If the only difference about being Christian and Jewish is that you speak Hebrew, that's fine. You can be both Christian and Jewish.
     
  6. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Does this mean that OT saints obtain salvation outside of Christ?
     
  7. HeatRamosHidden

    HeatRamosHidden Member

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    Jesus is God, the God is the Father and the Holy Spirit. If, in their time during ISrael's apex of importance, God chose another method of Salvation, through his own mystery, that's his prerogative, but no, they didn't find Salvation outside Christ, they found salvation outside the Cross.
     
  8. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi claninja,

    Thanks for the link, as I probably wouldn`t have found you. I believe that everyone has salvation through Christ, however we know the OT saints were `accounted righteous` by God in the foreknowledge of Christ`s redeeming work.

    And yes, Abraham is the father of those who believe by faith in what God has promised them. So may I ask -
    1. What did God promise the OT saints?
    2. What has God promised the Body of Christ?

    regards, Marilyn.
     
  9. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    No they are just judged differently based off what they did on Earth rather then if they are saved or not. There wasn't really an acts 2:38 salvation process in the OT.
     
  10. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    No, they are part of the People of God, Israel, but not part of the Church.
     
  11. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    I think they had to be redeemed from hell, by Christ after he died, and before he ascended...

    As for the legal case details, see this thread:

    A theoretical conversation between God, the Father, and God, the Son...

    God Bless!
     
  12. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    No one obtains salvation outside of Christ. ALL rely in his death at Calvary to enter heaven, under both covenants.
    When Christ died at Calvary he went to paradise. He made proclamation if the message to those who had died previously under the OC. So all had Christ, knew the message, and had his death for them in order to enter heaven
    1peter3:18-20
     
  13. Catherineanne

    Catherineanne Well-Known Member

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    Good grief.

    And yes, of course they are. That is the whole point.
     
  14. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    Some were in paradise or Abraham's bosom, and some were in Hades or hell of the earth (not the lake of fire)... (Then after what Christ did, he petitioned or began petitioning ones from both places and went to preach to them for three days and three nights before ascending and taking some to Heaven... Possibly those that don't get in being cast into the Lake of fire afterward... (Luke 16:19-31)

    Why else would there be a dispute where Moses body, (not his physical body persay maybe) But there was a dispute between Michael the Archangel, and Satan, the Devil over I think what side of the heavenly realms including the lake of fire outside the gates, to which Moses would get to go to... (Jude 1:9) Moses also accuses us (John 5:45) of the covenant of faith, (and grace and Love) who trust in Law, much like the Devil likes too...

    And by this argument might be the sort of dispute over him:

    A theoretical conversation between God, the Father, and God, the Son...

    Is that about right...?

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
  15. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Well without going too much into it, I would agree that those who died under the OC didn't await the resurrection of the dead in the same place. I don't think jezebel was alongside David!
    Christ went to proclaim the message so that all who did love God could accept his sacrifice for them. For no one could be truly righteous before God under the law.
    I think the important point t concerning in this debate, has already been alluded to. Christ was the spiritual rock that accompanied the Israelites in the dessert( 1cor10:4)
    In my view he was the God of Israel seen by 74 of the Israelite leaders in the dessert( ex24:9-11)
    He came to that which was his own but his own did not receive him( john1:11)

    He was with them under the OC, but they didn't recognise who he truly was. They didn't know specifically what we know about Jesus now and who he is
     
  16. dysert

    dysert Member

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    Fwiw, this is my opinion, too :)
     
  17. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    There is a first resurrection, for a limited amount of people. This resurrection takes place a thousand years before what we may term the general resurrection of the dead( rev20:4&5)
    It's good to read rev20:11-15&rev21:1-5 as a continuance, forget the chapter changing.
    On the last day of this present earth, the dead will rise and be judged. Those who's names are written in the lambs book of life live in the new heaven, the new Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven from God.
    For the old heaven and the old earth pass away, and the new earth and the new heaven comes, and there will be no more death, crying, mourning or pain, for God will dwell with his children in the new Jerusalem.
    Hence:
    For my father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day(the last day of this present earth) john5:39
     
  18. JoeP222w

    JoeP222w Well-Known Member

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    Theses are simply saying that believers in God that died before Jesus came did not see the Messiah come in their lifetime, they did not see the fulfillment of God's promise in their lifetime. That does not mean that they are not in Christ. Also points to the progressive revelation of scripture.

    Salvation does not have two different methods for those before Christ came and after Christ came. All those who are saved, are saved by repentance of sin and faith in God (Jesus is God). There is not more one plan.
     
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  19. GirdYourLoins

    GirdYourLoins Well-Known Member

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    Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.

    In a similar way we believe in Jesus and are deemed to be righteous. Seems pretty similar to me.

    I have heard sermons before that said that people before Jesus went to Hades where they will await final judgement. The good go to paradise and the bad to torment. The story of the rich man and Lazarus that Jesus said talks about this, with a gulf between them that cannot be crossed.
     
  20. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    So how are they made perfect apart from us (the body of Christ)?
     
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