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Are the OT saints part of the body of Christ?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by claninja, Aug 1, 2017.

  1. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Old Testament Saints
    Adam and Eve were promised a messiah from their seed
    Genesis 3:15
    God promised Noah to never destroy the earth by flood waters again
    Genesis 9:11
    Abraham was promised land, offspring like the stars, and all nations blessed through his offspring
    Genesis 12:1-2, Genesis 22:18-19
    Moses and the Israelites were promised the land and blessings if they obeyed the old covenant
    Deuteronomy 28:1-12
    Joshua was promised that God would be with him where ever he went
    Joshua 1:9
    David was promised his throne would last forever and that one of his descendants would sit on it
    2 Samuel 7:11-17, Psalm 132

    The old testament saints were never justified by works, only by faith
    Romans 4:1-12
    And even though the OT saints were faithful, they never received what was promised
    Hebrews 11:39
    Because God had forbearance with the OT saints and left their sins unpunished, so that he might show his righteousness through the atoning sacrifice of Christ that all would be justified by grace through Christ
    Romans 3:21-26

    New Testament
    Believers are saved by grace through faith in Christ
    John 3:16
    All the promises of God find their yes in Christ, for he fulfills the law, the prophets, and psalms
    2 Corinthians 1:20, Luke 24:44
    Believers, whether Jew, Gentile, slave, free, man, or woman, belong to Christ and are therefore Abraham's seed, and therefore heirs of the world, according to the promise
    Romans 4:13, Galatians 3:28-29
    Believing gentiles are grafted into the olive root
    Romans 11:17-18

    The gentiles were grafted into the olive root making them one in Christ with the Jews. It is not just the OT saints and Jews who are the seed of Abraham and heirs of the promise, it is now all from every tribe and nation who are in Christ (this was the gospel that was preached to Abraham: Galatians 3:8).

    And apart from us (the body of Christ) the old testament saints are not made perfect
    Hebrews 11:40
     
  2. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    You get it. Praise God. The sword (from Jesus) is becoming clear to you. Continue in understand that the "spirit is what makes you alive and the flesh profits nothing" John 6:63 , and you can understand that Jesus brought us the Holy Spirit that the Jews never had.

    The hardest part is accepting that the god of the Jews did not save them, it was the Father of Jesus that was revealed to us for the first time by his Son. Baby steps. The deceiver is strong and doesn't want to be revealed.

    Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."- Gospel of Thomas
     
  3. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Let me begin with an opening statement. There are messianic prophecies in the OT that have immediate non-messianic meanings. For example, in the famous, "the LORD said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand..." it is a psalm about David. Isaiah 53 is also about Israel, which Isaiah reveals God referring to as "my servant."

    The New Covenant, or Gospel, was always in effect. Christ's sacrifice went backwards in time as well as forwards. But that doesn't mean that those in the OT knew about Jesus or a suffering messiah would come. You asked, who did they have faith in? The answer is God. And God was their Savior.

    Your best verse was Hebrews 11:26. But even it doesn't prove your point. The fact that Moses valued the upbraiding of the Messiah STILL doesn't mean he understood that the Messiah would come and die for his sins. Furthermore, the word in Hebrews means the Annointed. It is possible that this refers to Aaron, who was annointed. IMHO Christians have a tendency to insert Jesus into the Tanakh when he is not there. What you really have is a messianic age. The messiah is simply the King that will rule during that age.
     
  4. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Did you agree with anything I said? I can provide more support over particular issues where you need more convincing.

    Jesus was going around preaching good news and healing people, so he was very popular with most Jews, especially judging by the triumphal entry, so it was mostly the Jewish leadership that were envious of him that sought to have him killed. They held a very illegal trial and stirred up a crowd against him, but the vast majority of Jews hadn't even heard about his trial until after it happened. However, even if all of the Jewish population had wanted to kill Jesus, it would still have been false that they killed Jesus because he said that no one takes his life from him, but that he laid it down on his own accord (John 10:18). He laid down his life for my sins, so I killed him, and he laid down his life for your sins, so you killed him, we all sinned and made his death necessary to become reconciled to God.

    It is true that there are Jews today who do not follow Christ, but there are also many who do.

    If Jesus taught a different religion, then he wouldn't have been the Messiah of Judaism. According to Deuteronomy 13, if Jesus had taught a different religion, then God instructed His people to regard him as a false prophet who was not speaking for Him. Likewise, according Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from what God had commanded, so if you believe that Jesus did that, then you should regard himmer as a sinner who could not even save himself from his own sins. Nowhere did Jesus express disagreement with the Father, or say that we shouldn't follow Him, or go off and teach his own thing, but rather he said he came not to do his own will, but only that of the Father (John 6:38), that his teaching are not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16, John 14:23-24). Jesus was sinless, so he taught how to follow Judaism both by word and by example, and we are told to follow his example (2 Peter 2:21-22) and to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6).

    It is not clear to me where you think John 8 says that Judaism and Christianity don't mix, but I'll take a stab at it:

    John 8:39-40 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did.

    I think these verse make it clear that the people he was talking to were not followers of Abraham and Jesus was not saying that Abraham doesn't mix with what he was teaching.
     
  5. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    David must have lied about himself
    Acts 2:34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said
    The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand

    the first targums interpreted by the ancient sages saw this as an individual. It wasn't until later, after Christ, that that the view you proposing was introduced by Rashi.

    I can definitely agree with this.

    I'd say that is possible, but God could have also revealed it, hence the prophecies.

    And Christ is God

    Maybe it is because Jesus himself said he was in the Tanakh
    Luke 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
    John 5:46
    If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
     
  6. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Greek word "ekklesia" is used to refer to the church of Israel in the wilderness, so that is when the Church Age began. When translators of the Bible inconsistently translate "ekklesia" as "church" when it refers to a group of NT believers and translate it as "assembly" everywhere else, then they create the false impression that the NT is talking about something brand new rather than something restored according to prophecy (Amos 9:11, Acts 15:16).

    What do you mean by this?
     
  7. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    Still don't see it. Who does the Spirit say to listen to:

    Matthew:
    4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

    Seems the voice of Spirit answered. Now if Jesus said that no man has heard the Father, this voice was the same at his Chrism:

    Matthew:
    And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
    17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    So who is this voice. The Father? Jesus said no man has heard his voice. It was his mother, the Holy Spirit, who begat him with the Father before Mary's existence. Jesus earthly mother is the one couldn't be his mother if Lukes words are correct:

    Luke:
    If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    So how could Jesus love his mother, Mary? The Catholics make her a saint, calling her mother of god.

    Now hear Thomas:
    <Jesus said,> "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple to me. And whoever does not love his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple to me. For my mother [...], but my true mother gave me life."

    It explains Luke further. Fleshly mother and father? The flesh profits nothing (John8)
    Our spiritual mother and father is the Father and the Holy Spirit. The spirit is what makes you alive. (John 8)

    Where is truth? Do you fight to hold to Orthodoxy? Your religion?

    I am not held to the same stands you are. I seek and I find.

    I don;t say who is or aren't Christians. I just see my Christian path as fruits of my seeking labor. The Holy Spirit sounds beautiful, like a childs mother. It netures like a mother. If there is a trinity, it is Father, Mother and Son.

    I do not want to offend. I was Orthodox for many, many years. You're not telling me anything that I already know from my early experiences as an Orthodox believer.

    Refusing Christ refuses the Holy Spirit. The Jews (Judaism) have neither.
     
  8. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is not clear to me how much of what you said interacts with the points I made.

    In John 5:37, Jesus did not say that no one had heard God's voice, but rather he was saying that the people that he was speaking to had not heard God's voice. There is absolutely no Biblical basis to think of the Spirit as female or that the Spirit was Jesus' mother, who begat him with the Father.

    We are commanded to love one another and Jesus loved the world so much that he died for us, including his mother, so he absolutely loved his mother. The verse in luke is not saying that we are supposed to hate everyone, but rather it is an idiom that was used to say that there is only one thing that can be our highest priority, and that needs to be our relationship with God, while everyone else takes second place.

    I grew up as a Baptist and was one for most of my life, but became a Messianic around maybe 5 years ago, so my beliefs are not strictly orthodox either.

    There was roughly 7-15 years between Christ's ascension and the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10 and during this period all of the followers of Christ were Jews who had received the holy Spirit. The Spirit also played a role on the OT. In Acts 23:6, Paul still identified as a Pharisee, so he never stopped being a Jew. The issue in Acts 15 was whether Gentiles had to become circumcised and become Jewish proselytes in order to become saved, so these Christians had not stopped being Jews either. Can you point to even a single verse that suggests that any Jew had to stop being a Jew in order to be a Christian? Again, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own but that of the Father, so can you point to a single verse that suggests that Jesus thought he was starting his own religion to follow him instead of the God of the OT?
     
  9. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Your conclusions make no sense to me. The passage is about David on one level, and about Christ on another level.
     
  10. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Where does Jesus ever say "I am the Tanakh"? The verses you quoted certainly don't say so.
     
  11. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Actually the Roman Empire bears the responsibility for Jesus' death. As if Pilate could abdicate responsibility.

    1. Only part of the Sanhedrin convicted Jesus (and it was made up mostly of Caiphus and the other Sadducees). They met illegally, and conducted the trial illegally.

    3.1 The "crowd"--how many people do you honestly think they could find in the middle of the night when everyone is asleep? In those days when cities were so much smaller, it didn't take a lot of people to be considered a crowd. It was more like a group of people than what WE think of as a crowd. And who is awake in the middle of the night. Ne'er do wells that have nothing better to do with their time than to carouse and make trouble.

    3.2 These Jews said, "Let his blood be upon us and our children" but Jesus said, "Father forgive them."

    4. 99% of the Jews in the city were asleep in bed.

    5. What percentage of Jews in the Roman Empire do you think lived in Jerusalem? IOW, the Jews that actually participated in Jesus' death were microscopic compared to the number of actual Jews.

    6. Though most Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, that is NOT the same as killing him. We cannot blame all Jews as a people for the death of Christ. To do so is clearly antisemitic, and has led to harassment, torture, and massacre of Jews.
     
  12. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi claninja,

    Thank you for all those great scriptures. It is good to remind ourselves of what God has said and done. Now I would just like to focus on the above point at the moment.

    `And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel before hand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed. So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.......Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law,.....that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.` (Gal. 3: 8 & 9, 13 & 14)

    Thus we see that in Christ Israel and the Gentiles are blessed.

    The Body of Christ`s blessing is to receive the promise of the Holy Spirit. We are also to be made like Christ with His divine nature. We are to be kings and priests and rule and reign with Him on His throne over the universe and the earth. All wonderful promises to the Body of Christ. (2 Peter 1: 4, Rev. 1: 6, 3: 21, 5: 10)

    The OT saints`s blessing is that they were promised a city whose builder and maker is God. This great city will rule over the earth from above. (Heb. 11: 10, 13 - 16, Rev. 21: 2, 24)

    Then Israel the nation`s blessing is that they will rule over the nations of the world, on the earth. (Micah 4: 1 - 3)

    regards, Marilyn.
     
  13. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Peter makes it clear it is about Christ, not David, as Christ ascended, but David is dead, buried, and still in the tomb
    Acts 2:29 “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

    Jesus never said "I am the Tanakh" and neither did I. Jesus did say the tanakh wrote about him in the verses I quoted you, however.
    The tanakh contains the law and the prophets, and jesus said the law, prophets, and psalms wrote about him: Luke 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
     
  14. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Hi Marilyn, thanks for the insightful response. It appears their is a lot we agree on. I think the ultimate promise for both the OT saint and the NT believer is the ressurection where we will receive our new bodies and be at home with the Lord. The gentiles were grafted into the seed of Abraham by faith and the OT saints cannot be made perfect without the body of Christ. We have all been interwoven together by God.
     
  15. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi clanija,
    That`s great. Now I am in the process of completing my next series for the blog area. It is called `the Eternal Purposes,` & I would like to present some of it on threads here so people can discuss. Hope you will contribute also.

    regards, Marilyn.
     
  16. HeatRamosHidden

    HeatRamosHidden Member

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    Jesus saved us through The Cross.
    Jesus saved the Jewish people through the Temple Worship. Now, the blood of the animals and the way things were done then were for blessings of prosperity, hope and the other blessings of life, but the blood of Jesus wasn't on them yet.

    It's kind of like when the Pharisees said, "His blood be upon us, and our children!" Was because their old system of salvation and worship in the Lord was rendered obsolete by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. They refused Jesus Christ because they thought they would be blessed the same way they had always been blessed. It doesn't work like that anymore because if you don't love Jesus, you don't love God.

    Sorry to those who are Jewish, but you're just fine if you're a Believer in Jesus AND a Jew.
     
  17. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Can you cite any verses that state that Jews were saved through the Temple worship?
     
  18. HeatRamosHidden

    HeatRamosHidden Member

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    I'll give you the verses in a minute, but what I'm really trying to say is that Jesus saved the Jewish people differently, not that they were saved outside Jesus.

    DISPENSATIONALISM – CATEGORIZED SCRIPTURE LIST
     
  19. HeatRamosHidden

    HeatRamosHidden Member

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    Where's the Edit button?
     
  20. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    I use scriptures of the time. Where is your belief substantiated? 99% were asleep?

    Caiphus and Sadducee's?

    Mark:
    And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate. And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering said unto them, Thou sayest it. And the chief priests accused him of many things: but he answered nothing. ...

    Sounds like more than just a few men to me.

    Matthew:
    But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.

    Multitude means a large number. So I don't see it being small.

    John says Jesus was taken to judgement early, but unless the back and forth from Pilate and the Priests were just a matter of minutes, by the time the choice cane for Barabbas to be chosen was surely not early when everyone slept. The people were crying out during the process. Who would sleep through such chaos?

    The Gospel of Nicodemus is based on the account of the judgement of Christ.

    The tendency to minimize the guilt of Pilate which is found in the Gospel According to Peter shows the keen interest with which ancient Christianity regarded his person. The prominent position occupied by Pontius Pilate in early Christian thought is further evidenced by the Gospel of Nicodemus. Into this narrative have been incorporated the so-called Acts of Pilate, a supposed official report of the procurator concerning Jesus. Some Acts of Pilate, it seems, were known as early as the second century. Justin Martyr remarks in his first Apology (35) after he has mentioned the passion and crucifixion of Jesus: 'And that these things happened you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.' A similar statement occurs in chapter 48. Tertullian refers twice to a report made by Pilate to Tiberius. According to him, Pontius Pilate informed the Emperor of the unjust sentence of death which he had pronounced against an innocent and divine person; the Emperor was so moved by his report of the miracles of Christ and his resurrection, that he proposed the reception of Christ among the gods of Rome. But the Senate refused (Apologeticum 5). In another place Tertullian says that the 'whole story of Christ was reported to Caesar—at that time it was Tiberius—by Pilate, himself in his secret heart already a Christian' (Apol. 21, 24). We see here the tendency at work to use the Roman procurator as a witness for the history of the death and resurrection of Christa nd the truth of Christianity.

    Even Church father Tertullian involved himself of the record of the judgement to Caesar.

    If The Gospel of Nicodemus (Acts of Pilate) are justified, then it adds a lot of considerations.

    "What Is Truth?" from Pilate is answered by Jesus.

    And Pilate went in again into the judgement hall and called Jesus apart and said unto him: Art thou the King of the Jews? Jesus answered and said to Pilate: Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me? Pilate answered Jesus: Am I also a Jew? thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? Jesus answered: My kingdom is not of this world; for if my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have striven that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Pilate said unto him: Art thou a king, then? Jesus answered him: Thou sayest that I am a king; for this cause was I born and am come, that every one that is of the truth should hear my voice. Pilate saith unto him: What is truth? Jesus saith unto him: Truth is of heaven. Pilate saith: Is there not truth upon earth? Jesus saith unto Pilate: Thou seest how that they which speak the truth are judged of them that have authority upon earth.

    The Acts of Pilate seemed to have stirred the interest of other "church fathers". But even Justin Martyr mentions the transcript.

    About AD 150 Justin Martyr, addressing his Defence of Christianity to the Emperor Antoninius Pius, referred him to Pilate's report, which Justin supposed must be preserved in the imperial archives.

    If you read the Acts of Pilate, you get a better view of who killed Jesus and why.
     
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