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Are the Gloves Coming Off??

redleghunter

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Where there is smoke..........

I'm good with you believing it is just my opinion. I think it is a pretty solid opinion.
There's a difference between assertions and arguments. Assertions is what you gave me. An argument is a position backed up with data and evidence.
 
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zephcom

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What makes you think that? It says do not murder and that applies to not taking another human life especially one which is defenseless. I can point out to you the various passages where God's wrath is against those who shed innocent blood.


Then what is it? Murder is the definition of killing another human being. When one takes the life of another against their will we call it murder.

Murder is the killing of another human being. There were two categories in Torah. One was the cold blooded killing of another. The other was when someone accidently killed another.


Not so, abortion is the intentional termination of an innocent defenseless human being. The very definition of murder according to Exodus 20:13


The only 'exemption' in Torah was if one accidently killed another person (hewing wood and the axe blade came loose killing the other man). And when defending oneself at night against intruders. Therefore, the only exceptions and which was not deemed murder was accidental death and self defense.


Well science is settled on the matter. We become distinct (from mother and father) human beings at conception. This is scientific fact. And yes the Bible is clear that God knew us in the womb and He is involved in our development. Therefore, both the Bible and science support we are human beings at conception. Something Christians also point out (but you are a deist and probably don't believe it) is Jesus Christ was indeed fully human at conception and that is part of the doctrine of the Incarnation.



I guess the poster if citing what I did above came up with that we are humans at conception and that to terminate such life is murder, they would be right.

Remember abortion is the pre-meditated taking of another human life. That's a secular leftist way of saying murder.

I note that you still haven't provided a Biblical reference which supports the claim that a fetus is, indeed, a human being.

And murder simply does not support many, many ways humans kill other humans. War is one notable example. Christians flock to join the military in this country. If it were not for Christians, America couldn't field a military. Yet nearly all of America's killing in war for the last generation or so has not had anything at all to do with defense.

While people can and do make personal assumptions of just what the nature of a fetus really is, the Bible does not.
 
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zephcom

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There's a difference between assertions and arguments. Assertions is what you gave me. An argument is a position backed up with data and evidence.

Okay. As I said, I'm good with you thinking that is my opinion.
 
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RDKirk

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However, it still remains that the Bible, which was not even in existence in the Second Century, does not address abortion. While anyone can have an aversion to abortion, my point is that if the Bible is the source of Christian theology, there is no Christian theology against abortion.

Well, it appears that the Christians who actually knew the apostles somehow got the idea that abortion was wrong.
 
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RDKirk

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I note that you still haven't provided a Biblical reference which supports the claim that a fetus is, indeed, a human being.

And murder simply does not support many, many ways humans kill other humans. War is one notable example. Christians flock to join the military in this country. If it were not for Christians, America couldn't field a military. Yet nearly all of America's killing in war for the last generation or so has not had anything at all to do with defense.

While people can and do make personal assumptions of just what the nature of a fetus really is, the Bible does not.

What kind of being is a fetus, if not human? The debate--and it's a philosophical one--is whether a fetus is a person.

Not a very long time ago, I would not have been considered a person.
 
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Rebecca12

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How do you feel about the fact that a good percentage of fertilized eggs never implant but are discarded by the body? It is probably about 30%. Or implant but spontaneously abort? The best estimates are that 25 to 50% of pregnancies spontaneously abort. Are you pushing for research dollars to solve this massive loss of "life?"

Would you absolutist "pro life" people support the death penalty or life in prison for a woman getting an abortion? After all, it is premeditated. If you are successful at redefining abortion as murder with concomitant penalties I will fight you in the streets. I will rescue women from your clutches and use my resources to insure they are not persecuted by you.
 
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zephcom

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Well, it appears that the Christians who actually knew the apostles somehow got the idea that abortion was wrong.

I doubt any Second Century Christians ever knew an Apostle. Its the time thing.

It is worth remembering, however, Christians got along fine without a Bible until the Fourth Century when the Holy Roman Catholic Church decided they needed rules to enforce.

I really believe that what Jesus did in His life and teaching is provided a framework which allowed His followers to elevate their spirituality beyond just following rules.

It sounds to me that may well have been the reasoning behind how they dealt with abortions since they didn't try to stop abortions as much as provide a loving alternative to abortions when they raised the children as their own.
 
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zephcom

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What kind of being is a fetus, if not human? The debate--and it's a philosophical one--is whether a fetus is a person.

Not a very long time ago, I would not have been considered a person.

That is a good question. A complete answer would likely require a book so please allow me to provide an answer which will likely be long for a forum but incomplete compared to a book.

Over the years I've been on forums like this I've done a lot of research and reading both of the Bible and about the Bible. One of the things I've noticed is there really is a 'Big Picture' found in the Gospels. For the most part Christians miss that Big Picture because they spend their time 'studying' single passages.

That Big Picture, I believe, points to the fact that we are not who we think we are. By that, I mean, we are not the physical bodywhich we operate. We are really an immortal spirit being which uses the physical body as a means to 'experience' life in the physical realm.

I think Jesus demonstrated our immortality by occupying a physical body just like we do and then being resurrected into His spirit being which was able to manifest as He chose.

Okay, that is the Cliff Notes. How does that apply to abortion?

I make the analogy of being born as being similar to an astronaut being able to experience space. The astronaut needs a craft for him experience space but does not have anything to do with the space craft until it is ready for launch.

I think you may see where this is heading. The astronaut does not begin to live inside the space ship when the first two pieces are put together. He doesn't live in it when it is half completed. He doesn't even live in it when it is moved to the launch pad. He begins living in it right at launch time.

I think we become human beings when the spirit being moves into the flesh and occupies it...at launch time.

Were I writing a book, I would spend a lot of time showing how I arrived at the 'Big Picture' from the Bible and how it...and especially Jesus...talks about the Kingdom, Heaven, resurrection, etc. But I'm not writing a book.
 
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redleghunter

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How do you feel about the fact that a good percentage of fertilized eggs never implant but are discarded by the body? It is probably about 30%. Or implant but spontaneously abort? The best estimates are that 25 to 50% of pregnancies spontaneously abort. Are you pushing for research dollars to solve this massive loss of "life?"

Would you absolutist "pro life" people support the death penalty or life in prison for a woman getting an abortion? After all, it is premeditated. If you are successful at redefining abortion as murder with concomitant penalties I will fight you in the streets. I will rescue women from your clutches and use my resources to insure they are not persecuted by you.
Abortion is the intentional termination of a human being.
 
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redleghunter

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I note that you still haven't provided a Biblical reference which supports the claim that a fetus is, indeed, a human being.

And murder simply does not support many, many ways humans kill other humans. War is one notable example. Christians flock to join the military in this country. If it were not for Christians, America couldn't field a military. Yet nearly all of America's killing in war for the last generation or so has not had anything at all to do with defense.

While people can and do make personal assumptions of just what the nature of a fetus really is, the Bible does not.
Murder is the intentional taking of another human life. I gave you the Biblical distinctions. The others were unintentionally killing some one and self defense in the dark.
 
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Rebecca12

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Abortion is the intentional termination of a human being.

Not responsive to my post.

To be legalistic, murder is the unlawful killing of a person. Because abortion is not unlawful it isn't murder. So even if you consider a fertilized egg or a fetus a person, abortion still isn't murder. That said, I do not see a fertilized egg as equivalent legally as a child born alive. I do not find the women's right to bodily autonomy irrelevant. I think the Supreme Court did a satisfactory job in Roe v Wade of drawing the line as to when the state has an interest in limiting abortion.

If the right was truly pro life they would see that birth control was widely and freely available. Colorado did this and it significantly reduced abortions.
 
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redleghunter

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Not responsive to my post.

To be legalistic, murder is the unlawful killing of a person. Because abortion is not unlawful it isn't murder. So even if you consider a fertilized egg or a fetus a person, abortion still isn't murder. That said, I do not see a fertilized egg as equivalent legally as a child born alive. I do not find the women's right to bodily autonomy irrelevant. I think the Supreme Court did a satisfactory job in Roe v Wade of drawing the line as to when the state has an interest in limiting abortion.

If the right was truly pro life they would see that birth control was widely and freely available. Colorado did this and it significantly reduced abortions.
I did respond to your post. What I posted is fact. Every abortion is the intentional termination of a human being.

It's factual and scientifically proven.

You added the law and the philosophical term "person."
I used verifiable scientific terms.

Every abortion is the intentional termination of a human being. Prove this is not true.
 
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redleghunter

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If the right was truly pro life they would see that birth control was widely and freely available. Colorado did this and it significantly reduced abortions.
This is false narrative spinning. If I present to you just one pro contraceptives advocate from the right then your narrative becomes false .
 
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Rebecca12

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I did respond to your post. What I posted is fact. Every abortion is the intentional termination of a human being.

It's factual and scientifically proven.

You added the law and the philosophical term "person."
I used verifiable scientific terms.

Every abortion is the intentional termination of a human being. Prove this is not true.



Human being is a term that must be defined. It isn't a scientific term. A common dictionary definition is: " a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance." No fetus or fertilized egg in that definition. Other dictionaries have defined human being simply as person. And then you have to read the definition of person. Genetically a fertilized egg has DNA of the species Homo sapiens. Does that make the fertilized egg a human being, a person with rights that take priority over that of the woman who is carrying that fetus? A matter of dispute. Either way, abortion isn't murder because it isn't defined in the US as murder.
 
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Rebecca12

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This is false narrative spinning. If I present to you just one pro contraceptives advocate from the right then your narrative becomes false .

No it doesn't make it false. It makes it false for a particular person but not in general. In general the right and specifically the Republican party does not support free and readily available birth control.
 
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redleghunter

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Human being is a term that must be defined. It isn't a scientific term. A common dictionary definition is: " a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance."
Correct. The 23 chromosomes from mom and the 23 from Dad are human. When they combine at fertilization a new distinct homo sapien aka human being is formed.

We are human beings at fertilization. Not monkeys not sheep, but human.

The Developing Human Being
By Keith Moore, and T.V.N. Persaud
7th edition, 2003

From an introductory definition section:

“Human development is a continuous process that begins when an oocyte(ovum) from a female is fertilized by a sperm(spermatozoon) from a male. Cell division, cell migration, programmed cell death, differentiation, growth, and cell rearrangement transform the fertilized oocyte, a highly specialized, totipotent cell – a zygote – into a multicellular human being. Although most developmental changes occur during the embryonic and fetal periods, important changes occur during later periods of development: infancy, childhood, adolescence, and early adulthood. Development does not stop at birth. Important changes, in addition to growth, occur after birth (e.g., development of teeth and female breasts). The brain triples in weight between birth and 16 years; most developmental changes are completed by the age of 25. Although it is customary to divide human development into prenatal (before birth) and postnatal (after birth) periods, birth is merely a dramatic event during development resulting in a change in environment.” (p. 2)

Zygote. This cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm during fertilization. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo).” (p. 2)

Embryo. The developing human during its early stages of development. Theembryonic period extends to the end of the eighth week (56 days), by which time the beginnings of all major structures are present.” (p. 3)

From chapter 2: “The Beginning of Human Development: First Week”

First sentence of the Chapter: “Human development begins at fertilization when a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoon) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell – a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.” (p. 16)

“Studies on early stages of development indicate that human oocytes are usually fertilized with 12 hours after ovulation. In vitro observations have shown that the oocyte cannot be fertilized after 24 hours and this it degenerates shortly thereafter.” [This would buttress our argument that sperm and ovum by themselves are parts of the parents and not entire beings. That there is a substantial change between gametes and zygotes.] (p. 31)

“The zygote is genetically unique because half of its chromosomes come from the mother and half from the father. The zygote contains a new combination of chromosomes that is different from that in the cells of either of the parents.” (p. 33)

“Cleavage consists of repeated mitotic divisions of the zygote, resulting in a rapid increase in the number of cells. The embryonic cells – blastomeres – become smaller with each cleavage division. First the zygote divides into two blastomores, which then divide into four blastomores, either blastomeres, and so on.” (p. 36-37) [We can use the cleavage discussion to show that now the embryo is operating on its own and developing.]


And more:

Quotes from Textbooks on Human Development

The French geneticist Jerome L. LeJeune has stated:

To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion. The human nature of the human being from conception to old age is not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence.” [The Human Life Bill: Hearings on S. 158 Before the Subcommittee on Separation of Powers of the Senate Judiciary Committee, 97th Congress, 1st Session (1981). See Norman L. Geisler, Christian Ethics: Options and Issues (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1989), p. 149 also Francis J. Beckwith,Politically Correct Death: Answering the Arguments for Abortion Rights (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1993), p. 42.] (Emphases mine – VJT.)

Dr. Hymie Gordon, professor of medical genetics and Mayo Clinic physician stated:

“I think we can now also say that the question of the beginning of life – when life begins – is no longer a question for theological or philosophical dispute. It is an established scientific fact. Theologians and philosophers may go on to debate the meaning of life or purpose of life, but it is an established fact that all life, including human life, begins at the moment of conception.” [The Human Life Bill – S. 158, Report 9, see Francis J. Beckwith, Politically Correct Death: Answering the Arguments for Abortion Rights(Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1993), p. 42.] (Emphases mine – VJT.)
 
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redleghunter

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No it doesn't make it false. It makes it false for a particular person but not in general. In general the right and specifically the Republican party does not support free and readily available birth control.
Why do they have to support free contraceptives?

A box of 12 condoms at Wal-Mart goes for $2.98.

A 12 pack of Iron Grip brand goes for less than $5.00

It took 20 seconds on Google to find this out.

Every free clinic hands out free condoms and even more advanced contraceptives.

Then again this has little to do with the premeditated terminating a healthy unborn human being.

Our country is awash in contraceptives and sex ed, yet people still don't use them and use abortion as an extension of contraceptives.

Procreation is serious business. People should take it seriously.
 
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redleghunter

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And then you have to read the definition of person.
Why? Before the Emancipation Proclamation Blacks were not legal persons in our country. In fact they were defined as 3/5ths a white person.

In 1938 Germany if one was not German they were subhuman. Jews were considered subhuman.

In Manchuria China the Japanese considered the Chinese as subhuman to the point some were eaten like animals.

Native Americans were not considered equal in personhood. If they were our forebears would not have slaughtered them and steal their land.

The Irish in the 1840s-1860s were not obviously persons as almost a million of them were starved to death to keep England fat and happy.

Personkind has a terrible history of defining "person."
Forgive me for not considering some philosophical definition of person even if accepted by law to be definitive of how we treat others. Especially when these humans are being terminated against their will with no trial, jury or legal representation.
 
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Rebecca12

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I gave you Colorado. Reduced abortions with free contraception.

The fact that a fertilized egg has homo sapiens DNA does not make it automatically equivalent to a child born alive. Nothing you said makes them equivalent. And don't forget, a substantial portion of those fertilized eggs are discarded by the body and a substantial portion of implanted eggs spontaneously abort. The potentiality of becoming a child is fragile. And as I said, I believe the woman who is pregnant has rights as well. I believe the Supreme Court balanced the interests involved adequately.
 
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