Are the Gloves Coming Off??

[zephcom]

The bible addresses murder and accepts that children in the womb are human beings.
From there it is a matter of 2+2. THe bible does expect us to be able to carry out such basic logical formulations.

Feel free to provide the Bible references that you believe leads to your conclusion.

 

[SolomonVII]

The left demanded it for decades. This is not deniable.

The right did it in 2016. This is also not deniable.

So whether or not the left was successful in their argumentation, they still got what they said they wanted, yes?

Be careful what you wish for, because it might come true. First Things did a good discussion of the kind of world that comes into existence when the counter culture values become the mainstream values.
There is no centre of gravity for a counter culture to define itself against anymore. It is all against all.
This is what winning the culture war looks like.

 

[zephcom]

Catholicism of course does not base opposition to abortion in theology. One does not need to read the Bible to see the killing of millions of unborn each year as monstrous crimes against humanity.
Even a person of the gutter such as Trump gets it that abortion is evil.
Democrats, and voters on the left? ... not so much.
So much for the value of being of good character.

War is evil. Withholding medical care is evil. Demanding people work for food is evil. Allowing Corporations to kill their customers is evil. Taking money from the poor and giving to the wealthy is evil.

There is a lot of evil in the world. Singling out abortion while ignoring the rest is hypocritical.

 

[SolomonVII]

Feel free to provide the Bible references that you believe leads to your conclusion.

Sure. First, do we agree that censure against murder is in the Bible, or do we need to post the fifth commandment?

 

[zephcom]

Sure. First, do we agree that censure against murder is in the Bible, or do we need to post the fifth commandment?

It is okay to provide all your evidence in one post. You made the claim that one can add Bible references together and derive a theological conclusion. All I asked for were the Bible references you were talking about.

If you don't have them, that's okay too.

 

[SolomonVII]

War is evil. Withholding medical care is evil. Demanding people work for food is evil. Allowing Corporations to kill their customers is evil. Taking money from the poor and giving to the wealthy is evil.

There is a lot of evil in the world. Singling out abortion while ignoring the rest is hypocritical.

Your whataboutism singles out abortion as the one thing that is not like the others. SJW warriors posit abortion as a good thing, and Christians who are so down with that agenda hold their nose and sign onto that agenda. The only way they can do that is by buying into the lie that prolife does not care about life after the first breath.

 

[SolomonVII]

It is okay to provide all your evidence in one post. You made the claim that one can add Bible references together and derive a theological conclusion. All I asked for were the Bible references you were talking about.

If you don't have them, that's okay too.

You are here. Let’s be systematic. We agree on the commandment on murder as biblical?

 

[zephcom]

Your whataboutism singles out abortion as the one thing that is not like the others. SJW warriors posit abortion as a good thing, and Christians who are so down with that agenda hold their nose and sign onto that agenda. The only way they can do that is by buying into the lie that prolife does not care about life after the first breath.

The pro-life agenda does NOT care about life after the first breath. The evidence for that is overwhelming. The people beating the drum to abolish abortion in America are the very same ones beating the drums for White nationalism, heinous treatment of illegal aliens, reduced corporate regulations for environmental protections, increase war mongering, protection of police for street executions, capital punishment and on and on.

They are pro-birth. period.

 

[zephcom]

You are here. Let’s be systematic. We agree on the commandment on murder as biblical?

We can't be systematic in one post?????

Please, post your references so I can review them.

 

[redleghunter]

The pro-life agenda does NOT care about life after the first breath.

Show me this is accurate. It's not by the way.

The evidence for that is overwhelming.

Prove it.

The people beating the drum to abolish abortion in America are the very same ones beating the drums for White nationalism, heinous treatment of illegal aliens, reduced corporate regulations for environmental protections, increase war mongering, protection of police for street executions, capital punishment and on and on.

Prove this.

They are pro-birth. period.

Again where is your proof?

 

[zephcom]

Show me this is accurate. It's not by the way.


Prove it.


Prove this.
Again where is your proof?

You go ahead and prove me wrong.

 

[SolomonVII]

We can't be systematic in one post?????

Please, post your references so I can review them.

Since you cannot answer one simple question on whether or not censures against murder are in the Bible, and since you spread vile lies about prolife Christians, what I have established for myself is that an actual honest conversation with you is impossible. Feel free to ignore me from here on in. Either way, Iwill no longer notice.

 

[redleghunter]

You go ahead and prove me wrong.

You made the claim now it is incumbent on you to establish your claim. Prove it!

 

[zephcom]

Since you cannot answer one simple question on whether or not censures against murder are in the Bible, and since you spread vile lies about prolife Christians, what I have established for myself is that an actual honest conversation with you is impossible. Feel free to ignore me from here on in. Either way, Iwill no longer notice.

Your choice. But you didn't even provide a Bible reference for your first step.

The reality is that abortion is not addressed in the Bible. There is no theological basis in the Bible to be anti-abortion. You made statements that you couldn't/wouldn't back up with Biblical references.

I'm willing to be wrong. I learn a lot by simply asking people to provide their evidence. I've had to change my mind on things because people provided me evidence. All I wanted from you is the Bible references you felt backed your claim. I can only assume now that you don't have any.

You can go away if you like but I really would like to know how you arrived at the conclusion you did. It is possible I am wrong. I have been before.

 

[zephcom]

You made the claim now it is incumbent on you to establish your claim. Prove it!

Okay. Here is the claim:

"The people beating the drum to abolish abortion in America are the very same ones beating the drums for White nationalism, heinous treatment of illegal aliens, reduced corporate regulations for environmental protections, increase war mongering, protection of police for street executions, capital punishment and on and on."

The Republican Party is the source for the drum beat to abolish abortion. The Republican party is also the supporters for all the other things I listed. The Republican party is all the same people doing all those things.

 

[redleghunter]

The reality is that abortion is not addressed in the Bible.

Exodus 20:13 does not get any more clear on the matter. God forbids us to murder.

There is no theological basis in the Bible to be anti-abortion. You made statements that you couldn't/wouldn't back up with Biblical references.

Sure there is:

John 13:34-35

Now where are your affirming Biblical references allowing Christians to kill or murder yet to be born human beings in the womb?

 

[redleghunter]

Okay. Here is the claim:

"The people beating the drum to abolish abortion in America are the very same ones beating the drums for White nationalism, heinous treatment of illegal aliens, reduced corporate regulations for environmental protections, increase war mongering, protection of police for street executions, capital punishment and on and on."

The Republican Party is the source for the drum beat to abolish abortion. The Republican party is also the supporters for all the other things I listed. The Republican party is all the same people doing all those things.

Those are still assertions with absolutely no proof. It is your opinion on the matter. Now prove it!

 

[zephcom]

Exodus 20:13 does not get any more clear on the matter. God forbids us to murder.


Sure there is:

John 13:34-35

Now where are your affirming Biblical references allowing Christians to kill or murder yet to be born human beings in the womb?

Okay, so here is the claim I was asking about:

"The bible addresses murder and accepts that children in the womb are human beings.

From there it is a matter of 2+2. THe bible does expect us to be able to carry out such basic logical formulations."

First, murder is addressed in Exodus 20. However, 'murder' is not the same thing as killing humans. Murder is a special form of killing humans. I've been lectured on that in all my discussions about Christianity. There needs to be more steps before one can make the connection between abortion and murder. That step is to show that abortion does not fall into all the exempt ways to kill humans without murdering them.

But the crucial problem falls with the second reference. It does -not- provide any support for the claim that 'children in the womb are human beings'.

Remember, that was part of the claim which allowed the poster to add 2 + 2 to arrive at a theological rejection of abortion.

 

[zephcom]

Those are still assertions with absolutely no proof. It is your opinion on the matter. Now prove it!

Where there is smoke..........

I'm good with you believing it is just my opinion. I think it is a pretty solid opinion.

 

[redleghunter]

THe bible does expect us to be able to carry out such basic logical formulations."

What makes you think that? It says do not murder and that applies to not taking another human life especially one which is defenseless. I can point out to you the various passages where God's wrath is against those who shed innocent blood.

First, murder is addressed in Exodus 20. However, 'murder' is not the same thing as killing humans.

Then what is it? Murder is the definition of killing another human being. When one takes the life of another against their will we call it murder.

Murder is a special form of killing humans.

Murder is the killing of another human being. There were two categories in Torah. One was the cold blooded killing of another. The other was when someone accidently killed another.

There needs to be more steps before one can make the connection between abortion and murder.

Not so, abortion is the intentional termination of an innocent defenseless human being. The very definition of murder according to Exodus 20:13

That step is to show that abortion does not fall into all the exempt ways to kill humans without murdering them.

The only 'exemption' in Torah was if one accidently killed another person (hewing wood and the axe blade came loose killing the other man). And when defending oneself at night against intruders. Therefore, the only exceptions and which was not deemed murder was accidental death and self defense.

But the crucial problem falls with the second reference. It does -not- provide any support for the claim that 'children in the womb are human beings'.

Well science is settled on the matter. We become distinct (from mother and father) human beings at conception. This is scientific fact. And yes the Bible is clear that God knew us in the womb and He is involved in our development. Therefore, both the Bible and science support we are human beings at conception. Something Christians also point out (but you are a deist and probably don't believe it) is Jesus Christ was indeed fully human at conception and that is part of the doctrine of the Incarnation.

Remember, that was part of the claim which allowed the poster to add 2 + 2 to arrive at a theological rejection of abortion.

I guess the poster if citing what I did above came up with that we are humans at conception and that to terminate such life is murder, they would be right.

Remember abortion is the pre-meditated taking of another human life. That's a secular leftist way of saying murder.