Are souls always immortal?

[Aussie Pete]

I think it involves the end of life - unlike "eternal life".


Yes it says that in Genesis 2:17 in the KJV.... but here's the NIV:

"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die"
​

Here's the word for day:
H3117 - yôm - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (KJV)

It can mean "time, period (general)". The NIV was translated carefully and they didn't use the word "day" - just "when".

Though "when" might not mean immediately...


Well if you believe in the resurrection of the dead and judgement then the first death would be temporary....

So what do you think "die" means in Genesis 2:17? Does it mean sleep? But Adam and Eve didn't go to sleep that day either. (assuming you're insisting "day" is the best translation)

I think the most appropriate definition of death is spiritual separation from God. Unbelievers are described as dead in trespass and sin. Yet they walk, talk, feel and choose. So what is dead? Also, when a person is born again, there is no outward change. Inwardly, there is dramatic change. What has changed? The believer still walks, talks, feels and chooses.

The part of us that is born again is the spirit. That is the part of us that is crucified with Christ and then raised together with Him. It was Adam's spirit that died. He immediately was separated from God. Once he and God walked together in Eden. Now he hides from God. He exists, so does the human spirit. But the unbeliever has no fellowship with God and cannot.

As PS, most of the translations say "day" rather than "when". Check it out in Bible Hub.

 

[JohnClay]

I think the most appropriate definition of death is spiritual separation from God. Unbelievers are described as dead in trespass and sin. Yet they walk, talk, feel and choose. So what is dead? Also, when a person is born again, there is no outward change. Inwardly, there is dramatic change. What has changed? The believer still walks, talks, feels and chooses.

The part of us that is born again is the spirit. That is the part of us that is crucified with Christ and then raised together with Him. It was Adam's spirit that died. He immediately was separated from God. Once he and God walked together in Eden. Now he hides from God. He exists, so does the human spirit. But the unbeliever has no fellowship with God and cannot.

As PS, most of the translations say "day" rather than "when". Check it out in Bible Hub.

Well I went beyond the Bible versions to look up the individual words using BlueLetterBible.org

So you're saying that the "in the day thou eatest thereof" is an accurate translation then please talk about the spiritual separation from God...

Genesis 3:8-9

Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”
​

So it seems the spiritual separation was started by Adam and Eve... but then they talked to God....

Are you saying that on that day and for the rest of their lives they were spiritually separated from God?

The spiritual separation humans have on earth seems like a different thing to the spiritual separation of hell....

BTW I find it odd that you disagree with the NIV translation of "when" vs "day" yet you find no problem with translating the word "die" as "spiritual separation from God".

 

[JohnClay]

Aussie Pete:

Could you also explain this?

Genesis 3:22-23

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.
​

I'm suggesting the tree of life would allow Adam and Eve to live forever.... note the tree of life is also mentioned in Revelation 2 and 22.... I think it would also help people to live forever....

 

[Aussie Pete]

Well I went beyond the Bible versions to look up the individual words using BlueLetterBible.org

So you're saying that the "in the day thou eatest thereof" is an accurate translation then please talk about the spiritual separation from God...

Genesis 3:8-9

Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”
​

So it seems the spiritual separation was started by Adam and Eve... but then they talked to God....

Are you saying that on that day and for the rest of their lives they were spiritually separated from God?

The spiritual separation humans have on earth seems like a different thing to the spiritual separation of hell....

BTW I find it odd that you disagree with the NIV translation of "when" vs "day" yet you find no problem with translating the word "die" as "spiritual separation from God".

Adam and replied to God's question. They were hiding from Him. Again this suggests a spiritual condition, not the end of existence. I'm convinced that Adam and Eve had an empty spirit. The two trees offered completion. Adam chose to live by the principle of good and evil. He was not deceived, it was his own choice, in defiance of God's command. From that moment on, they were indeed separated from God. You can trace the moral decline of mankind. It did not take long. Cain murdered his brother in a jealous rage. God still could speak to Cain, but Cain's attitude was wicked.

I don't necessarily disagree with the NIV. "When" is an acceptable translation. I was just pointing out that the other translators chose "day". Normally I would use the word "when" to be immediate following an event. "I'll go home when I've finished this quote" for example. For sure I would not take 900 years to head off home.

 

[mmksparbud]

So what did God mean when He told Adam that he would surely die? And not 900 or so years later, but that day. You need to rethink what death actually means.

Did you not read what I said on this already, post #17? If you had, you wouldn't be asking. He used the word beyom which means---an age. Yom is a 24 hr period. No, I do not need to rethink death-=--it means end of life---a ceasing of bodily and mental functions. Anything else, is false.

 

[JohnClay]

Adam and replied to God's question. They were hiding from Him. Again this suggests a spiritual condition, not the end of existence.

I'm saying that Genesis 2:17 is saying that soon after they eat from the tree they will die and that means that their earthly life will end. Death in the afterlife is different (Revelation talks about a second death).

I'm convinced that Adam and Eve had an empty spirit. The two trees offered completion.

What about the tree of life in post #23?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Well I went beyond the Bible versions to look up the individual words using BlueLetterBible.org

So you're saying that the "in the day thou eatest thereof" is an accurate translation then please talk about the spiritual separation from God...

Genesis 3:8-9

Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”
​

So it seems the spiritual separation was started by Adam and Eve... but then they talked to God....

Are you saying that on that day and for the rest of their lives they were spiritually separated from God?

The spiritual separation humans have on earth seems like a different thing to the spiritual separation of hell....

BTW I find it odd that you disagree with the NIV translation of "when" vs "day" yet you find no problem with translating the word "die" as "spiritual separation from God".

Are you aware this verse (Genesis 3:8) might actually contain the entire Trinity in it?

 

[Aussie Pete]

I'm saying that Genesis 2:17 is saying that soon after they eat from the tree they will die and that means that their earthly life will end. Death in the afterlife is different (Revelation talks about a second death).


What about the tree of life in post #23?

I may have missed post 23. I'm under extreme pressure at present.

I don't consider 900 years or so "soon". We don't know how long Adam had been in the garden or how his age at death was calculated. What is obvious is a dramatic change in Adam and Eve's attitude to God the moment that they sinned.

 

[JohnClay]

Are you aware this verse (Genesis 3:8) might actually contain the entire Trinity in it?

It only seems like one person to me in that verse... though I think verses like "let us make" and "become like one of us" is compatible with the trinity....

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

It only seems like one person to me in that verse... though I think verses like "let us make" and "become like one of us" is compatible with the trinity....

You have to look at the Hebrew to see it. "cool" as in, "cool of the day" actually means Spirit. There is also the presence of Jesus walking in the garden. Finally, "presence of the LORD God" is talking about God the Father. So you have Father, Spirit, Son in that passage.

 

[JohnClay]

I may have missed post 23. I'm under extreme pressure at present.

Hopefully you can reply to that sometime...

I don't consider 900 years or so "soon".

I used the word "soon"... I didn't quote it from anywhere and I didn't put much thought into it - sorry... the actual word was looked at in post #16....
H3117 - yôm - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (KJV)
it can mean "time, period (general)" and 900 years is a time period. So my interpretation (yom + "die") seems to fit.... (in the Strong’s Definitions section it also says "age", (for) ever(-lasting, -more) full, life, as (so) long as (... live))

We don't know how long Adam had been in the garden or how his age at death was calculated. What is obvious is a dramatic change in Adam and Eve's attitude to God the moment that they sinned.

Here is the word "die" from Genesis 2:17
H4191 - mûṯ - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (KJV)

to die, kill, have one executed
(Qal)
to die
to die (as penalty), be put to death
to die, perish (of a nation)
to die prematurely (by neglect of wise moral conduct)
(Polel) to kill, put to death, dispatch
(Hiphil) to kill, put to death
(Hophal)
to be killed, be put to death
to die prematurely​

The closest translation to what you're talking about is:
Strong’s Definitions:

to die (literally or figuratively)​

About Genesis 3:

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman
​

If the Bible was clearer it would have said something like:

You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will become spiritually separated from God.

“You will not certainly become spiritually separated from God,” the serpent said to the woman​

Would you consider that to be a better translation? I mean it is clearer than saying "die". It could at least say "figuratively die".

Genesis says "the tree of knowledge of good and evil" so it would make sense to include more precise wording for the term "die" as well.....

 

[JohnClay]

You have to look at the Hebrew to see it. "cool" as in, "cool of the day" actually means Spirit. There is also the presence of Jesus walking in the garden. Finally, "presence of the LORD God" is talking about God the Father. So you have Father, Spirit, Son in that passage.

Yeah it seems like "in the cool" can mean spirit....
H7307 - rûaḥ - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (KJV)
I think the trinity in the Bible is problematic though....
1 John 5:7-8 (NIV)

For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.​

(NIV notes)

Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)​

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Yeah it seems like "in the cool" can mean spirit....
H7307 - rûaḥ - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (KJV)
I think the trinity in the Bible is problematic though....
1 John 5:7-8 (NIV)

For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.​

(NIV notes)

Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)​

Not sure what your problem with the Trinity is based on this.

 

[JohnClay]

Not sure what your problem with the Trinity is based on this.

The original text was "the Spirit, the water and the blood".... I thought the water was the Holy Spirit.... it seems to be missing out the Father - maybe that's why it was later changed....

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

The original text was "the Spirit, the water and the blood".... I thought the water was the Holy Spirit.... it seems to be missing out the Father - maybe that's why it was later changed....

The water is representative of God the Father as per the creation story when the water was over the face of the deep and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. That is what I think that is where they get water for the Father from.

 

[JohnClay]

The water is representative of God the Father as per the creation story when the water was over the face of the deep and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. That is what I think that is where they get water for the Father from.

During baptism though I had assumed that the water represented the Holy Spirit....
BTW John and Revelation talks about "living water".

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

During baptism though I had assumed that the water represented the Holy Spirit....
BTW John and Revelation talks about "living water".

Baptism is supposed to represent your death with Christ going into the water, and being resurrected with Christ coming out of the water.

Water can by symbolic of multiple things and still be consistent.

And yes, living water. To experience it, in its fullness, is going to be amazing. Some day. As for now, the living water is Jesus. The living water is drinking in Jesus.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Did you not read what I said on this already, post #17? If you had, you wouldn't be asking. He used the word beyom which means---an age. Yom is a 24 hr period. No, I do not need to rethink death-=--it means end of life---a ceasing of bodily and mental functions. Anything else, is false.

Funny, Lazarus and the rich man would disagree with you. The rich man was conscious and in physical pain. Lazarus was doing fine. What was Lord Jesus doing after he descended into the grave? Preaching to dead people. How can they have heard if they had no mental functions?

 

[mmksparbud]

Funny, Lazarus and the rich man would disagree with you. The rich man was conscious and in physical pain. Lazarus was doing fine. What was Lord Jesus doing after he descended into the grave? Preaching to dead people. How can they have heard if they had no mental functions?

Sorry, but this is all wrong. It is a parable. Abraham's bossom isn't that large!! Not to mention that a drop0 of water in hell is going to do didly squat. Jesus did not preach to the dead---read the scriptures again---it was Jesus that spoke to the peoplle thropugh Mposes IN THE DAYS OF NOAH. These people were dead in their sins, in a prison by sin. Spirits is another word for souls---persons.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

But it's your right to believe whatever you want.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Sorry, but this is all wrong. It is a parable. Abraham's bossom isn't that large!! Not to mention that a drop0 of water in hell is going to do didly squat. Jesus did not preach to the dead---read the scriptures again---it was Jesus that spoke to the peoplle thropugh Mposes IN THE DAYS OF NOAH. These people were dead in their sins, in a prison by sin. Spirits is another word for souls---persons.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

But it's your right to believe whatever you want.

Why would Apostle Peter be talking about Spirits and not dead people in this context?