Are souls always immortal?

[JohnClay]

Apparently Jews didn't believe in the immortality of all souls but due to Greek influence the early church came to believe in this which led to the idea that torment would be eternal.

This web page looks at the main verses that seem to talk about eternal torment:

jewishnotgreek.com

It also talks about evidence that the lost will eventually be destroyed

Here is a 3 minute excerpt from the Christian movie "Hell and Mr Fudge":

YouTube 1:29:49 in

Edward Fudge was paid to investigate hell for a year and he wrote "The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Final Punishment".

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

"Soul" in it's original context, is just a being that is alive.

Personally, I don't know what I think about the common theory of "Substance dualism". If I was going to believe substance dualism is a thing, I wouldn't call our immaterial nature the Soul, but the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Apparently Jews didn't believe in the immortality of all souls but due to Greek influence the early church came to believe in this which led to the idea that torment would be eternal.

This web page looks at the main verses that seem to talk about eternal torment:

jewishnotgreek.com

It also talks about evidence that the lost will eventually be destroyed

Here is a 3 minute excerpt from the Christian movie "Hell and Mr Fudge":

YouTube 1:29:49 in

Edward Fudge was paid to investigate hell for a year and he wrote "The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Final Punishment".

Based on what I've read, which has included the sources you cite here, I tend to think the answer to your question is: no--none of us has or will have immortality until we Christians are clothed with it at an unspecified time in the future of which only God knows. And that's about all I'll say on this issue because, for me, it isn't one over which I want to have a knock down, drag out verbal brawl.

Peace!

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

As far as "Hell" is concerned (I watched the clip you were talking about) this WAS debated in the early church. There were three competing views about what happens to people who are not saved. Here they are:

1. Annihilationism
2. Eternal Conscious Torment
3. (Purgatory) Universalism

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Here's something I am working on currently. This is the first time I have posted my YouTube channel on this site, but I think it applies here.

Let me know what you think.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Apparently Jews didn't believe in the immortality of all souls but due to Greek influence the early church came to believe in this which led to the idea that torment would be eternal.

I think the early church were more influenced by the Words of Jesus...

Matthew 25:41, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

 

[Carl Emerson]

.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I think the early church were more influenced by the Words of Jesus...

Matthew 25:41, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Good point. Here is another verse on this:

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

 

[JohnClay]

I think the early church were more influenced by the Words of Jesus...

Matthew 25:41, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Note it has many paragraphs on this besides what I'm quoting...
jewishnotgreek.com

Trees with bad fruit are burned (Matthew 7:19), and so are unfruitful vines (John 15:6) and useless weeds (Matthew 13:40). These figures are all employed to depict the fate of sinners at the final reckoning. They will be cast into "unquenchable fire." This is the Greek word asbestos which means "inextinguishable." It describes a fire which burns without interruption; it is an enduring fire which none can extinguish no matter how hard they might try. It is important to notice here, however, that it is the fire that Jesus describes as enduring, NOT that which is cast into it....​

....That which is cast into the fire will BURN UP. This is the Greek word katakaio which means "to burn up; consume." It signifies to completely, utterly, totally destroy with fire. It is enlightening, in the context of this study, to note that this word is used in the LXX (Septuagint) in Exodus 3:2 where Moses beholds a burning bush-"The bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was NOT consumed." This particular bush was preserved in the fire....​

the fire was never made for humans, it was "prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). Humans, however, will be destroyed there-cremated according to Isaiah 66:24. (angels are immortal beings)​

Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

about the first century phrase "gnashing of teeth"

 

[Carl Emerson]

Note it has many paragraphs on this besides what I'm quoting...
jewishnotgreek.com

Trees with bad fruit are burned (Matthew 7:19), and so are unfruitful vines (John 15:6) and useless weeds (Matthew 13:40). These figures are all employed to depict the fate of sinners at the final reckoning. They will be cast into "unquenchable fire." This is the Greek word asbestos which means "inextinguishable." It describes a fire which burns without interruption; it is an enduring fire which none can extinguish no matter how hard they might try. It is important to notice here, however, that it is the fire that Jesus describes as enduring, NOT that which is cast into it....​

....That which is cast into the fire will BURN UP. This is the Greek word katakaio which means "to burn up; consume." It signifies to completely, utterly, totally destroy with fire. It is enlightening, in the context of this study, to note that this word is used in the LXX (Septuagint) in Exodus 3:2 where Moses beholds a burning bush-"The bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was NOT consumed." This particular bush was preserved in the fire....​

the fire was never made for humans, it was "prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). Humans, however, will be destroyed there-cremated according to Isaiah 66:24. (angels are immortal beings)​

about the first century phrase "gnashing of teeth"

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

This verse clearly describes ongoing eternal torment... and indicates humans who took the mark.

 

[JohnClay]

There are counterarguments...

Good point. Here is another verse on this:

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

The "no resting day or night" occurs while they are "bowing" and "worshipping" (present tense) the beast. This occurs during the time on earth when the book of Revelation events are being unfolded. These are people who are forced to receive the mark of the beast (Revelation 13:16). John also tells us that painful sores break out on their body, "And there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image." (Revelation 16:2) This is while they are on the earth.​

Additionally the very next verse states "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12). Why is this important? Because "keeping" is in the very same tense! John's statement of those "who keep (present tense) the commandments" must be at the same time as those who have "no rest" and are "worshipping (present tense) the beast." Therefore this is conclusive proof that these both occur on the earth. Need more proof? Well, the same Greek word and tense of "worship" (of God this time) is also used in Revelation 11:1 where it is absolutely clear that the "worship" is going on in the present tense upon this earth. Let me repeat Revelation 11:1, 14:11, 16:2, all have the same Greek tense! You have to make them all be acts of "worship" while upon this earth.​

Therefore, how can anyone "rest day or night" when they have painful such sores on their body and are forced to worship the beast? (Revelation 14:11 & 16:2). And John specifically tells us when this worshipping shall occur-it is when they "dwell upon the earth." "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him..." (Revelation 13:8) So the worshipping and the no resting both occur while upon this earth.​

--------

But what about the word "forever"; doesn't the text say torment will go on forever? No. Read it very carefully. It clearly says "the smoke" will rise forever. Smoke rising forever is much different than torment going on forever. John is using the biblical expression of "smoke rising" to describe how people then remembered an important incident. Today we take pictures and video of our enemies being bombed and their city set on fire and play it over and over a hundred times, but back then the enemies of God were destroyed and it was over. There was no video to review over and over again back then. The preservation of smoke was the only way for them to remember the great event. Look how John speaks of Babylon's destruction, "And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up forever and ever." (Revelation 19:3) One day Babylon will be destroyed and even in heaven we will never forget God's destruction of that city. That is what is meant by smoke rising forever. The same thing happened to Sodom and Gomorrah, "And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace." (Genesis 19:28).

It is not proper hermeneutics to view the Scripture in Revelation 14:10 apart from how any other biblical writer uses it. And not one of them uses it to imply eternal torment. Again, look how Isaiah uses the exact same wording about the city of Edom being destroyed, "the smoke thereof shall go up forever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever." (Isaiah 34:10). Edom was destroyed and the smoke rising forever was meant as a remembrance statement. Obviously, there is no smoke today still rising from the location of Edom. It is figurative language denoting that God's work of their destruction will "never be forgotten."​

 

[Aussie Pete]

"Soul" in it's original context, is just a being that is alive.

Personally, I don't know what I think about the common theory of "Substance dualism". If I was going to believe substance dualism is a thing, I wouldn't call our immaterial nature the Soul, but the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

1 Thessalonians 5
23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, and may your entire spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You might like to read Watchman Nee's "Spiritual Man". It will keep you occupied for months, but it explains the spirit and soul clearly, and with many Bible references. Watchman Nee had a knowledge of the Bible that few attain to.

 

[mmksparbud]

Apparently Jews didn't believe in the immortality of all souls but due to Greek influence the early church came to believe in this which led to the idea that torment would be eternal.

This web page looks at the main verses that seem to talk about eternal torment:

jewishnotgreek.com

It also talks about evidence that the lost will eventually be destroyed

Here is a 3 minute excerpt from the Christian movie "Hell and Mr Fudge":

YouTube 1:29:49 in

Edward Fudge was paid to investigate hell for a year and he wrote "The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Final Punishment".

There is no immortality of the soul in scriptures. That is why it was never a Jewish teaching.

Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Apparently Jews didn't believe in the immortality of all souls but due to Greek influence the early church came to believe in this which led to the idea that torment would be eternal.

This web page looks at the main verses that seem to talk about eternal torment:

jewishnotgreek.com

It also talks about evidence that the lost will eventually be destroyed

Here is a 3 minute excerpt from the Christian movie "Hell and Mr Fudge":

YouTube 1:29:49 in

Edward Fudge was paid to investigate hell for a year and he wrote "The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Final Punishment".

Man is fundamentally a spirit being. He has a soul, which is the organ of expression. The soul has natural life which God gave to Adam in order for him to function. God's intent was for Adam to eat from the tree of life. In that case, Adam would have been completed in perfection, full of God's uncreated life and equipped to carry out the commission that God gave both Adam and Eve. We know the sorry tale of Adam's disobedience.

This is purely my opinion: Man is not entirely evil. He is natural and therefore cannot comprehend God. The forbidden fruit was the knowledge of good and evil. I believe that the evil in man's nature will be consumed. The good will be left.
This does not mean that the unbeliever will be accepted into heaven. Being born again is the prerequisite. So where does the unbeliever end up? That I do not know. I do know that I don't want to be there.

 

[Aussie Pete]

There is no immortality of the soul in scriptures. That is why it was never a Jewish teaching.

Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Much of the interpretation hinges on the definition of death. It does not mean the end of existence. Adam was warned that he would die the day that he ate of the forbidden fruit. Obviously he did not cease to exist. When people died physically, it was referred to as sleep. Again that implies something other than non-existence. Lord Jesus said that Lazarus was asleep when He meant that Lazarus was dead.

 

[JohnClay]

Much of the interpretation hinges on the definition of death. It does not mean the end of existence.

I think it involves the end of life - unlike "eternal life".

Adam was warned that he would die the day that he ate of the forbidden fruit.

Yes it says that in Genesis 2:17 in the KJV.... but here's the NIV:

"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die"
​

Here's the word for day:
H3117 - yôm - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (KJV)

It can mean "time, period (general)". The NIV was translated carefully and they didn't use the word "day" - just "when".

Though "when" might not mean immediately...

Obviously he did not cease to exist. When people died physically, it was referred to as sleep. Again that implies something other than non-existence. Lord Jesus said that Lazarus was asleep when He meant that Lazarus was dead.

Well if you believe in the resurrection of the dead and judgement then the first death would be temporary....

So what do you think "die" means in Genesis 2:17? Does it mean sleep? But Adam and Eve didn't go to sleep that day either. (assuming you're insisting "day" is the best translation)

 

[mmksparbud]

Much of the interpretation hinges on the definition of death. It does not mean the end of existence. Adam was warned that he would die the day that he ate of the forbidden fruit. Obviously he did not cease to exist. When people died physically, it was referred to as sleep. Again that implies something other than non-existence. Lord Jesus said that Lazarus was asleep when He meant that Lazarus was dead.

LOL! I think my father is good and dead! And in the original language the word for day--in Gen 1---24 hr is yom,which is different from the word used in Gen 2 which is an age.

5 and~he~will~CALL.OUT(V) (וַיִּקְרָא / wai'yiq'ra) Elohiym (אֱלֹהִים / e'lo'him) to~LIGHT (לָאוֹר / la'or) DAY (יוֹם / yom) and~to~DARKNESS (וְלַחֹשֶׁךְ / wê'la'hho'shekh) he~did~CALL.OUT(V) (קָרָא / qa'ra) NIGHT (לָיְלָה / lai'lah) and~he~will~EXIST(V) (וַיְהִי / wai'hi) EVENING (עֶרֶב / e'rev) and~he~will~EXIST(V) (וַיְהִי / wai'hi) MORNING (בֹקֶר / vo'qer) DAY (יוֹם / yom) UNIT (אֶחָד / e'hhad)

RMT: and Elohiym called out to the light, day, and to the darkness he called out, night, and evening existed and morning existed, a day unit,

17 and~from~TREE (וּמֵעֵץ / u'mey'eyts) the~DISCERNMENT (הַדַּעַת / ha'da'at) FUNCTIONAL (טוֹב / tov) and~DYSFUNCTIONAL (וָרָע / wa'ra) NOT (לֹא / lo) you(ms)~will~EAT(V) (תֹאכַל / to'khal) FROM~him (מִמֶּנּוּ / mi'me'nu) GIVEN.THAT (כִּי / ki) in~DAY (בְּיוֹם / bê'yom) you(ms)~~Identifies the verb form as infinitive.">>~EAT(V) (אֲכָלְךָ / a'khal'kha) FROM~him (מִמֶּנּוּ / mi'me'nu) ~Identifies the verb form as infinitive.">>~DIE(V) (מוֹת / mot) you(ms)~will~DIE(V) (תָּמוּת / ta'mut)

RMT: but from the tree of discernment of function and dysfunction you will not eat from him, given that in the day you eat from him you will surely die,


So---there is also the whole 1 day is as a 1000 to God, and Adam died when he was 930---so he did die during a day to God. But I tend to go more with the 2 different interpretations for the word day, when preceded or followed by a number, it is a 24 hr period of dark and light, when not, it can
indicate a longer period of time, even a very long time.

Yes, death was referred to as a sleep---from which God alone can wake you up and He will do so at the last day.


Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

1 Thessalonians 5
23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, and may your entire spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You might like to read Watchman Nee's "Spiritual Man". It will keep you occupied for months, but it explains the spirit and soul clearly, and with many Bible references. Watchman Nee had a knowledge of the Bible that few attain to.

I just wanted to say thanks for this. I've been meaning to find a book on the differences between Soul and Spirit and Body.

 

[Aussie Pete]

mos

I just wanted to say thanks for this. I've been meaning to find a book on the differences between Soul and Spirit and Body.

most welcome

 

[Aussie Pete]

LOL! I think my father is good and dead! And in the original language the word for day--in Gen 1---24 hr is yom,which is different from the word used in Gen 2 which is an age.

5 and~he~will~CALL.OUT(V) (וַיִּקְרָא / wai'yiq'ra) Elohiym (אֱלֹהִים / e'lo'him) to~LIGHT (לָאוֹר / la'or) DAY (יוֹם / yom) and~to~DARKNESS (וְלַחֹשֶׁךְ / wê'la'hho'shekh) he~did~CALL.OUT(V) (קָרָא / qa'ra) NIGHT (לָיְלָה / lai'lah) and~he~will~EXIST(V) (וַיְהִי / wai'hi) EVENING (עֶרֶב / e'rev) and~he~will~EXIST(V) (וַיְהִי / wai'hi) MORNING (בֹקֶר / vo'qer) DAY (יוֹם / yom) UNIT (אֶחָד / e'hhad)

RMT: and Elohiym called out to the light, day, and to the darkness he called out, night, and evening existed and morning existed, a day unit,

17 and~from~TREE (וּמֵעֵץ / u'mey'eyts) the~DISCERNMENT (הַדַּעַת / ha'da'at) FUNCTIONAL (טוֹב / tov) and~DYSFUNCTIONAL (וָרָע / wa'ra) NOT (לֹא / lo) you(ms)~will~EAT(V) (תֹאכַל / to'khal) FROM~him (מִמֶּנּוּ / mi'me'nu) GIVEN.THAT (כִּי / ki) in~DAY (בְּיוֹם / bê'yom) you(ms)~~Identifies the verb form as infinitive.">>~EAT(V) (אֲכָלְךָ / a'khal'kha) FROM~him (מִמֶּנּוּ / mi'me'nu) ~Identifies the verb form as infinitive.">>~DIE(V) (מוֹת / mot) you(ms)~will~DIE(V) (תָּמוּת / ta'mut)

RMT: but from the tree of discernment of function and dysfunction you will not eat from him, given that in the day you eat from him you will surely die,


So---there is also the whole 1 day is as a 1000 to God, and Adam died when he was 930---so he did die during a day to God. But I tend to go more with the 2 different interpretations for the word day, when preceded or followed by a number, it is a 24 hr period of dark and light, when not, it can
indicate a longer period of time, even a very long time.

Yes, death was referred to as a sleep---from which God alone can wake you up and He will do so at the last day.


Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

So what did God mean when He told Adam that he would surely die? And not 900 or so years later, but that day. You need to rethink what death actually means.