Are Pre-Schism Roman Saints canonized post-schism Rome allowed to be prayed to and venerated?

[TheLostCoin]

So I have a very specific question, and that is with Saints which have been canonized post-schism or ONLY by Rome but died Pre-Schism - can one pray and venerate these Saints?

Now, obviously, there are pre-schism Saints in this category which you are probably not allowed to venerate in Orthodoxy (for example, Charlemagne [who is beatified but not technically a Saint], Nicholas I of Rome, Leo IX of Rome) without judgment, but there are Roman Saints which are recognized for their virtue that both Rome and the Orthodox Church can get behind, and I'm wondering if in these cases, one can pray and venerate

It's a very weird question I'm driving at, but I'll give you a couple of examples.

In the very early 19th century, the remains of a young consecrated virgin named St. Philomena were found in the Catacomb of Priscilla. Intercessions to this Saint in Rome have led to alleged miracles and healings, and she apparently appeared to a Neapolitan nun, saying that she was a 13 year old Greek Princess who was martyred by Diocletian.

There's also St. Expeditus, who was a Roman soldier in Armenia who was also martyred by Diocletian.

Finally, there's King St. Albert the Great, who was known as one of the first major Kings of England, and he's famous for making Wessex (what he ruled at that time, there wasn't a single English state yet) more powerful, and famous for bringing education more to the masses by offering education in Anglo-Saxon rather than Latin.


All of these Saints are canonized only in Rome, and not at all in Orthodoxy.

I've occasionally in a blue moon have asked these Saints for intercession, but it occurred to me that I should ask if it's permitted (without emailing my priest for the 1000th time)

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

I also have a question. Is Saint Anthony of The Desert An Eastern Orthodox Saint or just an Oriental Orthodox Saint ?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I'm just following and not going to attempt to answer your question. But I suspect partly it depends what you mean by "allowed".

People ask intercessions of people they have personally known to be pious, and may continue asking their prayers after they repose. Many of those will never be officially canonized ... but people ask their prayers anyway.

Otherwise I'm interested in the technicalities, so I'll just watch.

 

[ArmyMatt]

pretty much most of the pre-Schism saints we venerate openly as well, and this would include those who died before the Schism but were recently discovered (St Anthony is ours too).

 

[prodromos]

I suspect that it would be acceptable as long as there wasn't something iffy about their life or teaching, i.e. if someone had a vision of someone who had died pre-schism, but in the vision they gave a message that was contrary to Orthodox belief, we would not consider it to be a true vision.

 

[dzheremi]

I also have a question. Is Saint Anthony of The Desert An Eastern Orthodox Saint or just an Oriental Orthodox Saint ?

Basically all the major early Desert Fathers would be likely to be considered acceptable to EO as well, as the majority lived before Chalcedon, though there are some who were born well before it and died after it who I understand aren't venerated among EO (my baptismal saint, St. Shenouda the Archimandrite, comes to mind). If I recall correctly, the most widely available modern English collection of their sayings (made by Sr. Benedicta Ward) extends into the 6th century a bit, so if you're unsure about any particular father, it would be best to check up on the details of their lives. There is a difference between "not recognized in a particular tradition due to being local" (as is the case with many Egyptian and Syrian saints from before the schism) and being specifically barred, I would think. Not every particular tradition can encompass everything, so if that means the Greeks don't venerate Sahak Parthev of Armenia, that's okay. There is probably an abundance of more local Greek and Roman saints from Sahak's time (late 300s/early 400s) who I likewise know nothing about. It's a good reason to learn.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Basically all the major early Desert Fathers would be likely to be considered acceptable to EO as well, as the majority lived before Chalcedon, though there are some who were born well before it and died after it who I understand aren't venerated among EO (my baptismal saint, St. Shenouda the Archimandrite, comes to mind). If I recall correctly, the most widely available modern English collection of their sayings (made by Sr. Benedicta Ward) extends into the 6th century a bit, so if you're unsure about any particular father, it would be best to check up on the details of their lives. There is a difference between "not recognized in a particular tradition due to being local" (as is the case with many Egyptian and Syrian saints from before the schism) and being specifically barred, I would think. Not every particular tradition can encompass everything, so if that means the Greeks don't venerate Sahak Parthev of Armenia, that's okay. There is probably an abundance of more local Greek and Roman saints from Sahak's time (late 300s/early 400s) who I likewise know nothing about. It's a good reason to learn.

it depends on what they taught when it comes to the timing of Schisms. so as an example, Anselm of Canterbury was born before the Great Schism, and died after it. but since what he taught was so off the rails, he is not a saint of the Church.

on the other hand, St Edward the confessor was also born before and died after the Schism. but knowing he never supported any odd theology and he had a model life of piety, he is a saint for us.

 

[icxn]

St. Philoumeni is recognized and celebrated on August 10th. Here's her Apolytikion and Kontakion in Greek:

ΑΠΟΛΥΤΙΚΙΟΝ (Ἦχος γ´. Θείας πίστεως.)

Πεντεκαίδεκα ἐπὶ αἰῶνας, κόρη πάνσεμνε ἐν κατακόμβαις, Φιλουμένα ὑπὸ γῆν κατεκέκρυψο, ἀλλ’ ὁ Θεός σε πιστοῖς ἐφανέρωσεν, ὅνπερ τὸ πάλαι πιστῶς ὡμολόγησας· μάρτυς ἔνδοξε, μὴ παύσῃ καθικετεύουσα, ὑπὲρ τῶν εὐφημούντων σου τὴν ἄθλησιν.​

ΚΟΝΤΑΚΙΟΝ (Ἦχος πλ. α´. Τὸν συνάναρχον Λόγον.)

Παρθενίας τὸ κρίνον τὸ εὐωδέστατον, τὴν τοῦ φωτὸς θυγατέρα καὶ τῶν μαρτύρων τιμήν, ἀνυμνοῦμεν Φιλουμέναν τὴν ἀοίδιμον, ὅτι φιλοῦσα τὸν Χριστόν, καθυπέμεινε βελῶν, καὶ μάστιγος τὰς κακώσεις, καὶ τὸ μένος τῶν δυσσεβούντων, καταβαλοῦσα κατεστέφθη λαμπρῶς.​

 

[dzheremi]

it depends on what they taught when it comes to the timing of Schisms.

Yes, father. I suppose I took this as a given, and therefore assumed any reader would as well.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes, father. I suppose I took this as a given, and therefore assumed any reader would as well.

it's all good. it's easy to forget that unlike today, communication and travel wasn't as fast as back then. that was the reason I posted.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes, father. I suppose I took this as a given, and therefore assumed any reader would as well.

Sometimes we can't take anything as a given - but then I'm venturing outside TAW a bit today. We can hope that in our congregational forums things will go a bit more smoothly!

No criticism - I think I'm just surprised at the responses of many in other areas I've read today. It's hard to understand Christians responding to fellow believers in these ways. Lord have mercy on us all!

 

[TheLostCoin]

Sometimes we can't take anything as a given - but then I'm venturing outside TAW a bit today. We can hope that in our congregational forums things will go a bit more smoothly!

No criticism - I think I'm just surprised at the responses of many in other areas I've read today. It's hard to understand Christians responding to fellow believers in these ways. Lord have mercy on us all!

If it’s anything I did, pray for me.

 

[dzheremi]

Sometimes we can't take anything as a given - but then I'm venturing outside TAW a bit today. We can hope that in our congregational forums things will go a bit more smoothly!

True. That's probably why I assumed that like I did. "Oh, this is TAW. Everyone will already have that in mind." Eh, maybe for people who frequent it (even then, who can really know that?), but it's still good to emphasize since you guys get a lot of passersby and sometimes also people with preconceived notions about your Church who wouldn't necessarily know what goes into talking about this kind of topic. (You know, the "you're just saying that because X is not an Eastern saint!" or whatever other silly arguments you've probably heard.)

 

[~Anastasia~]

If it’s anything I did, pray for me.

No absolutely you did nothing. But you have a prayer anyway.