Are Pastors above reproach?

[ByTheSpirit]

I saw a video recently where an African American female preacher was hollering that no one has any right to question their pastor nor go against their pastors will. That God had placed them under that person for guidance and if the Pastor said no to a supposed leading, then the person should obey their pastor regardless of how strongly they felt on the subject.

Is this an accurate position to hold? Are pastors above question and reproach? I wish I could post the video for everyone to see. Those who are on my facebook can view it there. I dont know the name of the preacher, nor can I find her speaking video anywhere else. Perhaps the context was bigger, but the way the video is presented what is said is exactly how it was meant to come out.

EDIT-link to video
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2014/08/you-are-dumb-sheep-how-dare-you.html?m=1

 

[contango]

Sounds like a very dangerous position to me. It assumes a pastor can never make a mistake, and if the pastor gets it into his head that he can never be wrong you've really got a dangerous situation.

My pastor and I disagree on a number of issues. I don't believe he's infallible and neither does he. Neither of us believes I'm infallible. So where we disagree it's safe to say that one or both of us is wrong.

I can, and do, respect my pastor even though we have differences of opinion.

 

[FerventDisciple]

My Pastor is guilty of this at times. We have leaders meetings and often on certain issues he'll just do what he wants and not listen to any of us which can be very frustrating sometimes especially when we all know a decision is being made in the flesh.

There's no biblical mandate for the Pastor being the dictator of the Church, he's accountable both in Heaven and earth.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I saw a video recently where an African American female preacher was hollering that no one has any right to question their pastor nor go against their pastors will. That God had placed them under that person for guidance and if the Pastor said no to a supposed leading, then the person should obey their pastor regardless of how strongly they felt on the subject.

Is this an accurate position to hold? Are pastors above question and reproach? I wish I could post the video for everyone to see. Those who are on my facebook can view it there. I dont know the name of the preacher, nor can I find her speaking video anywhere else. Perhaps the context was bigger, but the way the video is presented what is said is exactly how it was meant to come out.

No Pastor is infallible. However, they are the one that God put in the position they are in. If you do not believe that then you need to find another church where you do believe God has put the pastor in his pastor position. If you believe God placed him there and you have a disagreement with a move he's making you should approach him with respect and discuss it with him. If he changes his opinion then great. But if he does not it is your place to back off, pray for him, and/or leave. It is not the duty of a congregant to raise a stink and fight and pout because the pastor does not do things their way. I recently attended a small congregation where one of the women disagreed with what the pastor was doing. He was not doing anything sinful he just did not operate the service or take care of business according to her liking. In the church service she tried to divert the service to what she wanted to discuss. Twice the pastor kindly said, "let's move on". Twice her hand shot up in the air and she said, "no, I wanna" (whatever it was she wanted). That was totally out of order and she was in the wrong. The pastor was totally frustrated and embarrassed. She got to say her piece however, there was only one other couple who agreed with her. Neither are attending the church anymore.

The pastor is not God, however neither is he a stepping stone for people to walk all over and have the congregants pulling him every direction and the congregant getting mad and throwing a temper tantrum because the pastor does not do things their way. I've seen that in several churches.

We are called to pray that the pastor will hear God's voice. If after our discussion and praying with him he continues to do as he considers God has led him, if we cannot/will not support him then we need to leave because we will only be a hindrance. If the congregant feels that leaving is not an option, then they should be praying for him. Help the pastor if needed. The pastor does not have to be agreed with but in the process of our disagreeing the congregant is not to undermine him or disrespect. Take it to God that He will take care of any problems that are really there. Also, in your prayer that God will open the pastors eyes (if needed) pray that your eyes be opened if it's you who needs the correction. I've done that many times. By praying that way I've seen God change as needed the pastor as well as change me.

 

[Angelquill]

To whom much is given, much will also be required. It is the pastor's responsibility to look after Christ's church, just as Christ would do if He were here in the flesh.
Of course, we must remember that the pastor is only a flesh and blood human, just like the rest of us.
I'm afraid that there are some pastors who somehow get it into their heads that the flock that he is overseeing are somehow his sheep, and he begins to treat them as if he were the chief shepherd. It's sort of an "occupational hazard." If you see that happening, do not walk...RUN to the nearest exit, and go find yourself another church right away. Do not encourage that attitude of pride...it will only lead not only the pastor himself, but the entire congregation into a mess.

 

[bushinoki]

I disagree entirely with the sentiment that pastors should be followed without challenge. Churches have elders and deacons for a reason. A pastor needs to answer to these as well as the congregation at any given time. There are plenty of scriptures that call for submission to authority, but that submission is only required if the pastor is acting in a Godly manner, and maintaining the truth of the Gospel. If your pastor is living in an unGodly manner, or abusing his authority, challenge the life/abuse in a Godly way. If the pastor cannot account for his actions scripturally, leave.

 

[jiminpa]

I left a church because a "pastor" thought he had the authority to dictate to me to drop out of a trade school. He lost my trust, and I voted with my feet. Buh bye. If the Bereans were commended for verifying Paul's teachings, why shouldn't we do the same? I had more trusted and spiritually mature people in my life than that guy. Looking back we stayed too long and that little ego club did more damage to family members than I realized. What I regret is that we didn't get out sooner.

 

[Faulty]

I saw a video recently where an African American female preacher was hollering that no one has any right to question their pastor nor go against their pastors will. That God had placed them under that person for guidance and if the Pastor said no to a supposed leading, then the person should obey their pastor regardless of how strongly they felt on the subject.

Is this an accurate position to hold? Are pastors above question and reproach? I wish I could post the video for everyone to see. Those who are on my facebook can view it there. I dont know the name of the preacher, nor can I find her speaking video anywhere else. Perhaps the context was bigger, but the way the video is presented what is said is exactly how it was meant to come out.

Sounds like she doesn't want people questioning her. Ego trip.

Did she actually use the word 'pastor', or did she say 'preacher'?

 

[lismore]

Is this an accurate position to hold? Are pastors above question and reproach? .

This is the standard Pentecostal/ charismatic viewpoint in my experience. It creates an unbalanced and unstable church, a revolving door of people coming and going. Your only say is to vote with your feet, most do and are replaced by those voting with their feet from other similar churches. A merrygoround of frustrated people going round in circles. Personally I prefer the congregational model of church governance.

 

[NorrinRadd]

I saw a video recently where an African American female preacher was hollering that no one has any right to question their pastor nor go against their pastors will. That God had placed them under that person for guidance and if the Pastor said no to a supposed leading, then the person should obey their pastor regardless of how strongly they felt on the subject.
...

The very fact that this creature gave voice to such sentiments shows that it is not fit to be in charge.

 

[Marbleyes902]

A state of heart that rejected admonition was characteristic of Israel at various periods in her history, and these periods were invariably followed by judgement. When Christ came to the Jews He found them chuck full of that arrogant self-confidence that would not accept reproof. "We be Abraham's seed," they said coldly when He talked to them about their sins and their need of salvation. The common people heard Him, and repented, but the Jewish priests had ruled the roost too long to be willing to surrender their privileged position. Like the old king, they bad gotten accustomed to being right all the time. To reprove them was to insult them. They were beyond reproof.
Churches and Christian organizations have shown a tendency to fall into the same error
that destroyed Israel: inability to receive admonition. After a time of growth and
successful labour comes the deadly psychology of self-congratulation. Success itself
becomes the cause of later failure. The leaders come to accept themselves as the very
chosen of God. They are special objects of the divine favor; their success is proof enough that this is so. They must therefore be right, and anyone who tries to call them to account is instantly written off as an unauthorized meddler who should be ashamed to dare to reprove his betters. If anyone imagines that we are merely playing with words let him approach at random any religious leader and call attention to the weaknesses and sins in his organization. Such a one will be sure to get the quick brush off, and if he dares to persist he will be confronted with reports and statistics to prove that he is dead wrong and completely out of order. "We be the seed of Abraham" will be the burden of the defense. And who would dare find fault with Abraham's seed?
Those who have already entered the state where they can no longer receive admonition
are not likely to profit by this warning. After a man has gone over the precipice there is
not much you can do for him; but we can place markers along the way to prevent the next traveller from going over. Here are a few:

1. Don't defend your church or your organization against criticism. If the criticism is false it can do no harm. If it is true you need to hear it and do something about it.

2. Be concerned not with what you have accomplished but over what you might have
accomplished if you had followed the Lord completely. It is better to say (and feel), "We
are unprofitable servants we have done that which was our duty to do."

3. When reproved, pay no attention to the source. Do not ask whether it is a friend or an enemy that reproves you. An enemy is often of greater value to you than a friend because he is not influenced by sympathy.

4. Keep your heart open to the correction of the Lord and be ready to receive His
chastisement regardless of who holds the whip. The great saints all learned to take a
licking gracefully - and that may be one reason why they were great saints.
A.W. Tozer

 

[Alithis]

A state of heart that rejected admonition was characteristic of Israel at various periods in her history, and these periods were invariably followed by judgement. When Christ came to the Jews He found them chuck full of that arrogant self-confidence that would not accept reproof. "We be Abraham's seed," they said coldly when He talked to them about their sins and their need of salvation. The common people heard Him, and repented, but the Jewish priests had ruled the roost too long to be willing to surrender their privileged position. Like the old king, they bad gotten accustomed to being right all the time. To reprove them was to insult them. They were beyond reproof.
Churches and Christian organizations have shown a tendency to fall into the same error
that destroyed Israel: inability to receive admonition. After a time of growth and
successful labour comes the deadly psychology of self-congratulation. Success itself
becomes the cause of later failure. The leaders come to accept themselves as the very
chosen of God. They are special objects of the divine favor; their success is proof enough that this is so. They must therefore be right, and anyone who tries to call them to account is instantly written off as an unauthorized meddler who should be ashamed to dare to reprove his betters. If anyone imagines that we are merely playing with words let him approach at random any religious leader and call attention to the weaknesses and sins in his organization. Such a one will be sure to get the quick brush off, and if he dares to persist he will be confronted with reports and statistics to prove that he is dead wrong and completely out of order. "We be the seed of Abraham" will be the burden of the defense. And who would dare find fault with Abraham's seed?
Those who have already entered the state where they can no longer receive admonition
are not likely to profit by this warning. After a man has gone over the precipice there is
not much you can do for him; but we can place markers along the way to prevent the next traveller from going over. Here are a few:

1. Don't defend your church or your organization against criticism. If the criticism is false it can do no harm. If it is true you need to hear it and do something about it.

2. Be concerned not with what you have accomplished but over what you might have
accomplished if you had followed the Lord completely. It is better to say (and feel), "We
are unprofitable servants we have done that which was our duty to do."

3. When reproved, pay no attention to the source. Do not ask whether it is a friend or an enemy that reproves you. An enemy is often of greater value to you than a friend because he is not influenced by sympathy.

4. Keep your heart open to the correction of the Lord and be ready to receive His
chastisement regardless of who holds the whip. The great saints all learned to take a
licking gracefully - and that may be one reason why they were great saints.
A.W. Tozer

ty for this post ..

people forget that God is able to direct our path through a donkey if he so pleases .. and I guess some folks in leadership are sometimes donkeys .. but we Love them

 

[jiminpa]

A state of heart that rejected admonition was characteristic of Israel at various periods in her history, and these periods were invariably followed by judgement. When Christ came to the Jews He found them chuck full of that arrogant self-confidence that would not accept reproof. "We be Abraham's seed," they said coldly when He talked to them about their sins and their need of salvation. The common people heard Him, and repented, but the Jewish priests had ruled the roost too long to be willing to surrender their privileged position. Like the old king, they bad gotten accustomed to being right all the time. To reprove them was to insult them. They were beyond reproof.
Churches and Christian organizations have shown a tendency to fall into the same error
that destroyed Israel: inability to receive admonition. After a time of growth and
successful labour comes the deadly psychology of self-congratulation. Success itself
becomes the cause of later failure. The leaders come to accept themselves as the very
chosen of God. They are special objects of the divine favor; their success is proof enough that this is so. They must therefore be right, and anyone who tries to call them to account is instantly written off as an unauthorized meddler who should be ashamed to dare to reprove his betters. If anyone imagines that we are merely playing with words let him approach at random any religious leader and call attention to the weaknesses and sins in his organization. Such a one will be sure to get the quick brush off, and if he dares to persist he will be confronted with reports and statistics to prove that he is dead wrong and completely out of order. "We be the seed of Abraham" will be the burden of the defense. And who would dare find fault with Abraham's seed?
Those who have already entered the state where they can no longer receive admonition
are not likely to profit by this warning. After a man has gone over the precipice there is
not much you can do for him; but we can place markers along the way to prevent the next traveller from going over. Here are a few:

1. Don't defend your church or your organization against criticism. If the criticism is false it can do no harm. If it is true you need to hear it and do something about it.

2. Be concerned not with what you have accomplished but over what you might have
accomplished if you had followed the Lord completely. It is better to say (and feel), "We
are unprofitable servants we have done that which was our duty to do."

3. When reproved, pay no attention to the source. Do not ask whether it is a friend or an enemy that reproves you. An enemy is often of greater value to you than a friend because he is not influenced by sympathy.

4. Keep your heart open to the correction of the Lord and be ready to receive His
chastisement regardless of who holds the whip. The great saints all learned to take a
licking gracefully - and that may be one reason why they were great saints.
A.W. Tozer

I think you have to be careful with #3. Satan is the accuser of the brethren and he is not out to lead us to repentance. It is possible to give too much credence to our accusers and become paralyzed in constant repentance for things that were never a problem in the first place.

 

[rick357]

ty for this post ..

people forget that God is able to direct our path through a donkey if he so pleases .. and I guess some folks in leadership are sometimes donkeys .. but we Love them

This may be the most important thing our love for our elders...we serve God not men but elders are a gift from God we should if we see them in error restore them from love and respect not by rebuke but from the love of God
Love is long suffering...kind...does not envey...is not rash...it is not thinking much good of itself...does not behave unseemly...does not seek its own...not easily provoked...thinks no evil...does not find joy in inequality but joy in truth...bears all believes all hopes all endures all...does not fail
They give their lives to be used by God to watch over our souls...yes they are men and can fail misunderstand be carnal but they bear great responsibility and we are told to submit and obey...does that mean we can not disagree no but we honor them for their calling
Think of the commandment to honor father and mother...does honoring them ever include disobeying God never but short of that we obey for a true father watches for the good of his children.
What if your elder is loosing his way...consider the relationship between David Saul and Johnathen. Even after God annointed David king he served Saul for the position he held belonged to God even if he was abusing it...it was for God to remove him...and when that happened though Saul had sought his life for years David did not rejoice but rather mourned his loss.
All that said make sure you are in Israel not Moab.

 

[Marbleyes902]

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are."
Matt 23:15

Yes mercy first, but not at the expense of truth. Apparently Jesus seems to be of the opinion that following poor teachers, gets poor results. So I ask, is it truly being merciful to see error left uncorrected in the body of Christ? Or for the sake of looking humble, swallow what could at the very least, be poor doctrine, or at worst, be an out and out lie? Only to wind up in the same position as the one who taught you. Along with the others who have also been influenced by the lie.

For me, this is part of what Phil 2:12-14 means,
"work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Do all things without complaining and disputing"

I do not advocate disputing every little seeming mistake that is uttered from the pulpit. And am not under the impression that the church is filled with unheard prophets. If God is in fact showing an individual an issue in their local leadership, it is more likely he simply wants you to pray about it, not talk about it, not get self righteous about it, and most likely not to be confrontational about it. Pray and trust God will do the correcting. It is not an enviable position to be in, when God needs you to correct anyone, much less that of having to correct a leader in the body of Christ, if and when it is needed. I for one do not wish that role on anyone. And if whatever the error or sin is, if it's that bad, the other option is that he is simply trying to steer you away from bad teaching, or examples. Maybe it's time to find another fellowship. Just keep in mind, if you find something in every church, and something about every leader. The problem most likely is with a critical spirit. Pray for God's spirit to show you the difference. Like every sin, it too can be repented of, and turned away from. I say this from experience.
Because our God is a merciful God.

 

[jiminpa]

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are."
Matt 23:15

Yes mercy first, but not at the expense of truth. Apparently Jesus seems to be of the opinion that following poor teachers, gets poor results. So I ask, is it truly being merciful to see error left uncorrected in the body of Christ? Or for the sake of looking humble, swallow what could at the very least, be poor doctrine, or at worst, be an out and out lie? Only to wind up in the same position as the one who taught you. Along with the others who have also been influenced by the lie.

For me, this is part of what Phil 2:12-14 means,
"work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Do all things without complaining and disputing"

I do not advocate disputing every little seeming mistake that is uttered from the pulpit. And am not under the impression that the church is filled with unheard prophets. If God is in fact showing an individual an issue in their local leadership, it is more likely he simply wants you to pray about it, not talk about it, not get self righteous about it, and most likely not to be confrontational about it. Pray and trust God will do the correcting. It is not an enviable position to be in, when God needs you to correct anyone, much less that of having to correct a leader in the body of Christ, if and when it is needed. I for one do not wish that role on anyone. And if whatever the error or sin is, if it's that bad, the other option is that he is simply trying to steer you away from bad teaching, or examples. Maybe it's time to find another fellowship. Just keep in mind, if you find something in every church, and something about every leader. The problem most likely is with a critical spirit. Pray for God's spirit to show you the difference. Like every sin, it too can be repented of, and turned away from. I say this from experience.
Because our God is a merciful God.

 

[Always in His Presence]

No Pastor is infallible. However, they are the one that God put in the position they are in. .

The pastor is not God, however neither is he a stepping stone for people to walk all over and have the congregants pulling him every direction and the congregant getting mad and throwing a temper tantrum because the pastor does not do things their way. I've seen that in several churches.

We are called to pray that the pastor will hear God's voice.


Also, in your prayer that God will open the pastors eyes (if needed) pray that your eyes be opened if it's you who needs the correction. I've done that many times. By praying that way I've seen God change as needed the pastor as well as change me.

that is a big ole chunk of wisdom.

 

[Frogster]

Gal 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

 

[Frogster]

elders....


1 Tim 5:20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.

 

[Biblicist]

No Pastor is infallible. However, they are the one that God put in the position they are in.

As the Scriptures do not prescribe any office of a 'pastor', we would have to ask, who places men in these often untenable roles, God or man?