Are Pastors above reproach?

[Bob Carabbio]

Is this an accurate position to hold?

It's a DANGEROUS position - (just ask Jim Jim Jones' or David Koresh's followers - Oh that's right, they're all dead).

Are pastors above question and reproach?

Nope, they're "just people" like everybody else - EXCEPT that God WILL require their teaching at their own hand. James 3:1

HOWEVER the spreading of SEDITION / Rebellion in a Church group, is a SIN (listed in Gal 5).

If you're going to disagree DO IT PROPERLY!!!!!

Mat 18:15-17 is a stated procedure for dealing with issues, whether it's another parishioner, Deacon, Board member, Elder, or pastor.

Nobody ever DOES it that way, of course - much easier to run around as a "tail bearer" and poison the congregation.

The day that MY Pastor makes a statement to his congregation like that is the day he ceases to be "my pastor"

Simple as that.

 

[TravelerFarAwayFromHome]

I recently attended a small congregation where one of the women disagreed with what the pastor was doing. He was not doing anything sinful he just did not operate the service or take care of business according to her liking. In the church service she tried to divert the service to what she wanted to discuss. Twice the pastor kindly said, "let's move on". Twice her hand shot up in the air and she said, "no, I wanna" (whatever it was she wanted). That was totally out of order and she was in the wrong. The pastor was totally frustrated and embarrassed. She got to say her piece however, there was only one other couple who agreed with her. Neither are attending the church anymore.

if your version is 100% correct, then yes, you are right, this woman sound like that b word that rhymes with the word rich.

and yes, she was uncalled for

the pastor doesn't have to do things HER way, since it does not involve him sinning.

and he sounded like someone who is quite humble, which is rare among pastors, I am sorry someone like him was treated that way.

That said, pastors are not CEOs, so the church should have certain amount inputs, but it has to be majority rules.

also if a pastor is humble, he and she should be open to suggestions, if those suggestions are in the best interests of the church.

The pastor is not God, however neither is he a stepping stone for people to walk all over and have the congregants pulling him every direction and the congregant getting mad and throwing a temper tantrum because the pastor does not do things their way. I've seen that in several churches.

Again, you are spot on, pastor are not and should not be treated like a doormat.

however, reverse can also be true.

a long time ago I went to this church meeting, there was this gentleman who seem to enjoy cracking jokes, to a point where he was being a little bit disruptive, but everyone could tell he did not mean malice. Inappropriate maybe, but not malicious.

and the pastor chose to deal with this situation by saying to him, in a manner that I felt bordering on being aggressive " don't you give me a hard time"

that was disrespectful on the pastor's part

all he needed to say was " you are making it hard for me to give my talk, I would appreciate it if you stop making those jokes"

respect goes both ways.

that pastor really deserved an butt beating for that.

We are called to pray that the pastor will hear God's voice. If after our discussion and praying with him he continues to do as he considers God has led him, if we cannot/will not support him then we need to leave because we will only be a hindrance. If the congregant feels that leaving is not an option, then they should be praying for him. Help the pastor if needed. The pastor does not have to be agreed with but in the process of our disagreeing the congregant is not to undermine him or disrespect. Take it to God that He will take care of any problems that are really there. Also, in your prayer that God will open the pastors eyes (if needed) pray that your eyes be opened if it's you who needs the correction.

depends on the issue.

if it involves sinful issues, such as a pastor misuse his power, that involves treated someone with disrespect, or try to make someone feel unwelcome in a church just because he doesn't like that person on a personal level, then he need to be confronted, first in a respectful and loving manner, should he continue chose not to repent, then actions need to be taken, be it suspension or removed from his position.

every job comes with accountability, a man who is working for God should have more accountability than most.

 

[TravelerFarAwayFromHome]

A pastor is to guide and lead and nurture, etc., not control. I've attended a few churches where the pastor was in "control". The last one, he was unapproachable.

Scripture tells us to approach in humility. Not in accusation and screaming and threatening, etc.. Most of what I've seen in churches it's the latter that most people have done. In my opinion, if when you approach you don't get the desired results and it really is that bothersome to you, then it is probably best that you leave.

No one is beyond reproach. However, in reproaching someone, we need to treat them with respect....as we should everyone.

and if a pastor has control issues, then that is not acceptable

people has the right to want the issue addressed

yes, one should approach pastor first with respect, but is he refuse to take responsibility, then the next step should be disciplinary action.

pastor need to have accountability.

 

[parsley]

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Well then she shouldnt be putting her nose in church affairs..

Yes, except she is often invited to speak to church groups. I'd thought she was a pastor too, from a talk where she asked everyone in her ministry to an intense fasting and prayer commitment. She must have meant her employees instead of parishioners.

Ambassador Dr.Juanita Bynum is an internationally acclaimed Empowerment Lecturer, recording artist, and media personality. Founder and President of Juanita Bynum Ministries in Norcross, Georgia, Dr. Bynum II is the New York Times bestselling author o

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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans]If you're going to disagree DO IT PROPERLY!!!!![/FONT]

Yes -- pastors have a job to do, and people's involvement can be very consuming or disruptive. I don't know how pastors do it.

If they delegated more, and raised up leaders, then ideally they would have less weight on their shoulders.



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[episkopos]

“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye NOT MANY FATHERS: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1 Corinthians 4:15
The gift of a “father” is a rare gift. Not every man of God is a father. Not everyone who teaches the Word of God is a father. Not all the visiting preachers and teachers were fathers.
Not every prophet is father and Paul pointed this out to the Corinthians.”
Excerpt From: Dag Heward-Mills. “Those Who are Dangerous Sons” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

When you read further into the chapter, you'll come to understand that more often than not, our pastors are spiritual fathers given to us. And by virtue of my pastor being my father, I'd be be careful to reproach him because of what usually befalls sons with critical eyes of their fathers;
“Many sons have had to swallow their words as they walked into their father’s footsteps and made the exact same mistakes. Notice how this happened with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, and Solomon.
A son who criticizes his father usually inherits his father’s problems and devils. Being critical of a person opens you up to the person’s problems for a number of reasons.”

Also the pastor, although human, has been chosen by God.
Romans 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Assuming it was everyone's role to reproach pastor would the church not defer from it's mission.

Perhaps a more appropriate question would be " Who can a pastor be reproached by?"
And my answer would be their spiritual fathers and "colleagues" - iron sharpeneth iron (Proverbs 27:17)

 

[CGL1023]

I saw a video recently where an African American female preacher was hollering that no one has any right to question their pastor nor go against their pastors will. That God had placed them under that person for guidance and if the Pastor said no to a supposed leading, then the person should obey their pastor regardless of how strongly they felt on the subject.

Is this an accurate position to hold? Are pastors above question and reproach? I wish I could post the video for everyone to see. Those who are on my facebook can view it there. I dont know the name of the preacher, nor can I find her speaking video anywhere else. Perhaps the context was bigger, but the way the video is presented what is said is exactly how it was meant to come out.

EDIT-link to video
FBC Jax Watchdogs: You are a Dumb Sheep! How DARE You Question the 'Man of God'!!

I know that the pastor is the head of the flock and Jesus repeatedly told Peter to feed his sheep, tend his flock, protecting it from ravening wolves. You follow in obedience and give deference and latitude to the pastor but not blindly following with no regard for other circumstances. We always have the example of Jim Jones and the People's Temple in the 70's and Heaven's Gate in 1997 to learn from.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Yeah except Peter wasn't a "pastor" and Jesus surely would have said that to all in attendance at that sea side meeting if that were the application as they ALL had the same calling. But sure I guess

 

[Andrea411]

The form of 'church' used today is pagan. It was not ever the way Christ directed it. Of course there were not 6 billion people on earth either.
Have you ever read Frank Viola's 'Pagan Christianity". It's a real eye opener. Not only should we question pastors and leadership, those that are greatest are servants.
Yet the Holy Spirit manages to use what we offer... and billions of people have heard the gospel bc of Him. I never envy the role of pastor and especially the pastor's family. Ideally the home church reflects the early church. Probably the Amish come as close to the early church, by gathering in homes and electing their presbytery. Although there are many things wrong there also.... I don't think the Lord needs our organized systems... He just uses them.
We are to submit to one another.... study to show ourselves approved and listen to the Holy Spirit, while we function within God's church. Sometimes that means gathering in a building, or in our homes or with our families. With or without a pastor.

God bless, andrea

Frank Viola Author: Official Landing Page

 

[Frogster]

I have that book, Viola's.

 

[Andrea411]

I have that book, Viola's.

Have you read it. If so, what did you think?

 

[parsley]

Also the pastor, although human, has been chosen by God.
Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

A couple of statements through this thread echoed that position, but the evidence can lead us to disturbing conclusions.

We make choices for our careers, and pursue them, whether led by God or not. Some are called. Some just say they are.

Would we consider David Koresh, Warren Jeffs, Sun Myung Moon, Jung Myung Seok Sun Myung Moon
called by God? They felt they were. Charles Manson told people he was Jesus reincarnated.

The pastor who killed his wife and kept her in the refrigerator... the ones who were arrested for child abuse and rape... the embezzlers... they did not bring glory to the Kingdom.

Jim Bakker might have started out well, but was convicted of fraud and conspiracy. At what point do we stop following, or hold leaders accountable? It is ridiculous to watch illegal or unethical conduct go on and not speak up.

No one plans to get swept up in a cult, embezzled and defrauded, molested and murdered... but one thing leads to another.

There are many wonderful pastors who have sacrificed their private time and other dreams to serve their congregations. But God allows people to make choices, and human choices do not always align with God's purposes.

In the epistles, the pastor was not the head of the church -- Christ was the head. There were teachers, evangelists, prophets, pastors... separate roles and not necessarily one per congregation. They did not appeared to be salaried.

Churches met in houses and people brought dishes-to-pass, so there wasn't a lot of overhead. No cost of CD's, Bibles, hymnals, projection and sound systems and fire alarms.... maybe a couple rugs and extra chairs. The tithe was grain, and offerings were doves and bulls. Less temptation for embezzlement.

Priests in the Old Testament were chosen by family lineage. In a sense they were called by God, because God gave Moses the insight for a viable structure.

I know many people hold to the broad theory that God controls everything in this world, but it does not stand up against evidence. God can foresee what people will do, and warn us that it's about to happen. He can nudge people to make decisions, but we don't see Him forcing people to take actions.

Deuteronomy 13

If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, `Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him...

 

[gideons300]

I saw a video recently where an African American female preacher was hollering that no one has any right to question their pastor nor go against their pastors will. That God had placed them under that person for guidance and if the Pastor said no to a supposed leading, then the person should obey their pastor regardless of how strongly they felt on the subject.

Is this an accurate position to hold? Are pastors above question and reproach? I wish I could post the video for everyone to see. Those who are on my facebook can view it there. I dont know the name of the preacher, nor can I find her speaking video anywhere else. Perhaps the context was bigger, but the way the video is presented what is said is exactly how it was meant to come out.

EDIT-link to video
FBC Jax Watchdogs: You are a Dumb Sheep! How DARE You Question the 'Man of God'!!

It certainly would be easier to follow a pastor if they actually lived lives that were above reproach, amen? But we have drifted so far from the gospel that sets us free from our self ruled old nature that most pastors have never been told themselves how to become overcomers of temptations in their own lives.

If we ourselves are not given instructions as to how to keep our own bodies under, or how to possess our vessels in sanctification and honor, then no one knows the HOW of holiness. It seems at some point we would come to the place where we ask why this is?

God said this:

"Is there no balm in Gilead? Is there no physician there? Why then is the health of the daughter of my people healed only slightly, saying 'Peace, pace', when there is no peace?"

What will we answer? If there is a reason why all this is happening in His church, should we at least not be asking why? If we do not seek for real deliverance from the old man in us, we will continue to wander, doing religious laps in the wilderness of unbelief. There IS an answer, but we will find it only when we seek it with our whole hearts. That time is approaching. It is called the valley of decision.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[standingtall]

Are Pastors above reproach?

NO

 

[Optimax]

If you think your Pastor is wrong.

First of all.

Pray for him and yourself.

It could be you that is wrong.

Prayerfully rethink it.

Then ask for an appointment to discuss the issue(s).

Approach the appointment with respect and be humble.

If it turns negative you can simply go elsewhere.

You are not responsible nor accountable for either a real or perceived situation that is not right.

You are not responsible nor accountable for others choices.

 

[Optimax]

Double post

 

[ByTheSpirit]

The form of 'church' used today is pagan. It was not ever the way Christ directed it. Of course there were not 6 billion people on earth either.
Have you ever read Frank Viola's 'Pagan Christianity". It's a real eye opener. Not only should we question pastors and leadership, those that are greatest are servants.
Yet the Holy Spirit manages to use what we offer... and billions of people have heard the gospel bc of Him. I never envy the role of pastor and especially the pastor's family. Ideally the home church reflects the early church. Probably the Amish come as close to the early church, by gathering in homes and electing their presbytery. Although there are many things wrong there also.... I don't think the Lord needs our organized systems... He just uses them.
We are to submit to one another.... study to show ourselves approved and listen to the Holy Spirit, while we function within God's church. Sometimes that means gathering in a building, or in our homes or with our families. With or without a pastor.

God bless, andrea

Frank Viola Author: Official Landing Page

Very well put!

 

[Messy]

I saw a video recently where an African American female preacher was hollering that no one has any right to question their pastor nor go against their pastors will. That God had placed them under that person for guidance and if the Pastor said no to a supposed leading, then the person should obey their pastor regardless of how strongly they felt on the subject.

Is this an accurate position to hold? Are pastors above question and reproach? I wish I could post the video for everyone to see. Those who are on my facebook can view it there. I dont know the name of the preacher, nor can I find her speaking video anywhere else. Perhaps the context was bigger, but the way the video is presented what is said is exactly how it was meant to come out.

EDIT-link to video
FBC Jax Watchdogs: You are a Dumb Sheep! How DARE You Question the 'Man of God'!!

I think that's their culture or something. Lately I saw an African preacher say: if women would only obey their husband there wouldn't be any marriage problems anymore and all the women said: Amen!! Amen!! I saw it with a preacher there who prayed for a couple and she was rebellious and said it was her husband's fault that she was with other men and it looked like that preacher softly hit her on the head and he stopped her, don't say that about him. LOL it's a bit different than here, so I suppose that's also with leaders. Shut up woman! Shut up sheep!