Are Mormons and JWs Christians?

[TheBarrd]

I have started a blog as you suggested. Shame I can't upload the entire file. But I'll continue at a few pages at a time.

Fantastic...
I'll look for it. I'm sure it will be fascinating reading...

 

[Architeuthus]

No, it is not nonsense. The concept that the Father is the Son is the Holy Ghost is the nonsense. Just look at the Baptism of Jesus to see the three separate and distinct not as the Nicene Creed would portray them. Stringing together separate verses and ignoring the rest does not make for truth. I can do that and prove that Christmas Trees are evil.

I am not here to attack Christianity. I am here to discuss the issues. I asked for a simple definition of Christian and have been attacked for my belief. I have finally been given a definition (without scriptural reference) and by using that definition, I have shown that the CHurch of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints is Christian.

I remind you again of the rules: Those who do not adhere to the Statement of Faith [i.e. the Nicene Creed below] are welcome as members and participants in discussions, but you are required to respect these beliefs, even if you do not share them. ... Promoting or proselytizing religious beliefs or religions ... other than Christianity is not allowed. For the purpose of these rules, Christianity is defined by Christian Forums' Statement of Faith [i.e. the Nicene Creed below].

I don't see any point in continuing this discussion. For reference, this is the Creed:

The Nicene Creed(with scriptural references)

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)v
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

 

[KenBrace]

If you believe in Christ as a divine figure then you're a Christian. I don't really see why this is being debated.

 

[Architeuthus]

If you believe in Christ as a divine figure then you're a Christian.

Well, no, not if you mean "one of many divine figures" or "a subordinate divine figure."

And, once again, you don't get to define what Christianity is.

 

[KenBrace]

Well, no, not if you mean "one of many divine figures."

And, once again, you don't get to define what Christianity is.

Is a Christian not simply a follower of Christ? A Christian that view Christ as one of many gods is simply a different type of Christian, no?

 

[TheBarrd]

Is a Christian not simply a follower of Christ? A Christian that view Christ as one of many gods is simply a different type of Christian, no?

No.

 

[Architeuthus]

Too silly, to understand their own Bible!

We can do without comments like that, thanks.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

The joke here is that all Christian churches are heretics? Why? Because they are all descended from a small, first insignificant Jewish sect. The Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, all the Protestant churches and sects. And each other they criticize themselves; dropped to be about faith; no longer practicing the "true" faith. It would be laughable if it were not to cry.

Please Admin, delete my account.

Oh, BTW, the "Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost is FEMALE! In Hebrew the word for Spirit (רוה) (ruach) is FEMALE.Too silly, to understand their own Bible!

Criticism of Christianity is one thing, but when it's from a completely uninformed perspective it just makes you look bad.

 

[mmksparbud]

(Rom 5:8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
He paid the price--for everyone--accept it or not--your choice.
God is not Jesus--there is nothing human about Him, Jesus is God by virtue of being His begotten Son--we are created in their IMAGE--a Barbie doll is created in our image--so is a corn cobb doll---how close to the real thing are they?? Jesus BECAME man, but retained His divinity.
I do not in any way accept the Mormon view of God--this site has the right to make its own rules as to who is allowed here.
As for me--The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch--long before any Nicene creed. All they had to do was believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah. This differentiated them from the Jews.

(Act 11:26) And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

And there is this--
(Act 20:29) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
The wolves would be amongst us. Just bearing the name Christian doesn't make you one, even if you believe the Nicene Creed--they will hear this:

(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[TheBarrd]

The joke here is that all Christian churches are heretics? Why? Because they are all descended from a small, first insignificant Jewish sect. The Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, all the Protestant churches and sects. And each other they criticize themselves; dropped to be about faith; no longer practicing the "true" faith. It would be laughable if it were not to cry.

Please Admin, delete my account.

Oh, BTW, the "Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost is FEMALE! In Hebrew the word for Spirit (רוה) (ruach) is FEMALE.Too silly, to understand their own Bible!

Hekate, with all the best intentions, and all the respect I can muster....
Take an old lady's advice.
This would be a good time to quietly withdraw...

 

[Alive_Again]

Ok

Both Mormons and JWs believe that Christianity is entirely apostate. That is one of the hallmarks of cults. Everybody is wrong. They also change who the Father, Jesus, and the Holy are. They believe in the Bible (but only as it is translated correctly). No kidding! But that means "where we re-translate it 'properly'". Mormons have other "scriptures" that supersede the Bible (God's Word). The plan of salvation is no longer the cross and the Blood of Jesus is not enough to ensure salvation.

Those two groups combined have done more to "evangelize" the world than other gropus (save real Christianity).

No more JWs can get to actual Heaven, only paradise and Mormons can become gods.

Many have left churches with no anointing or power (as real Christians) and were led off to a place where the Holy Spirit cannot manifest. He only confirms the Word with signs following. There is a real spirit ministering in these places and they really partake of it. To them it is not empty. They are being fooled into preaching their versions of the "gospel". They led people into bondage (unknowingly) and cooperate with the enemy by getting people who want love to join their fellowships.

Pray for them because these are very sincere people who want to please God. They were veered off course into error. Not just doctrinal differences, but actual spiritual bondage.

 

[KenBrace]

No.

Why not? What constitutes a Christian? Certain doctrines? Why do those particular doctrines make someone a Christian?

 

[Hammster]

Is a Christian not simply a follower of Christ? A Christian that view Christ as one of many gods is simply a different type of Christian, no?

If you have the wrong Jesus, then no.

 

[Alive_Again]

Why not? What constitutes a Christian? Certain doctrines? Why do those particular doctrines make someone a Christian?

A Christian is someone who heard the gospel, was convicted as a sinner, and received Jesus in their heart in response as Lord and Savior. They are born again, spiritually new creatures on the inside. It's the seed of the Word of God growing inside of them. They Holy Spirit comes to them. They can go on to the intended "Pentecost" experience, where those waters flow up inside of you, the fullness of the Holy Spirit.

God laid out His plan in the scriptures and a Christian, New Covenant believer is to live abiding "in Him"; walking according to the dictates of the Spirit of God now in communion with his new nature. God anointed servants to minister truth in the Spirit so that people aren't swayed by the ever changing winds of doctrine (into error). Believers should have a love in their heart they direct toward God and others. They worship God in Spirit and in truth. They flow as a vine and a branch as one. That's the ideal. People get distracted by the cares of this world (thorns) and choke that holy seed within them. But if you keep your eye single and your love in motion, your sight Heavenward, you can walk in the fellowship of the light of God. If you sin, you can repent and be forgiven and receive righteousness again as a gift.

Religion "tacks on" other stuff that is a burden to the gospel in order to be saved. All that you would do to fulfill God's Word should be accomplished by grace, by His Spirit.

So cults teach that you need to follow their leaders to be saved and bypass the "offence of the cross". Many churches add on these other burdens. But cults change the gospel into something else. They make Jesus into a created being and the Holy Spirit into a impersonal "force". The listen to deceiving and seducing spirits to twist the simple truth of the gospel into something else. Always judge by the fruits.

When you become a believer, their should be a hunger within you to read God's Word and get it into your spirit. That which ministers life should be embraced and the rest set aside or rejected. The most profitable thing you can do is to fulfill God's Word (to abide in Him). Doing that looses the Holy Spirit within you and His marvelous fruits.

Their should also be a desire to fellowship with like believers. Churches that deny the deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit are cults and they have demonic spirits working to oppress and blind the minds of those who would receive their words. Take heed what you hear.

 

[Architeuthus]

It's more than stupid to pretend to understand the Bible, and yet to have no idea in reality. That with the Holy Spirit was only one of many examples.

Apart from the extremely offensive wording of your posts, you're not a Christian, and you seem unaware that the New Testament was written in Greek, not Hebrew. How exactly does this make you an expert on the Christian faith?

Luke 3:22, to take one verse, says καὶ καταβῆναι τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον σωματικῷ εἴδει ὡς περιστερὰν ἐπ’ αὐτόν, καὶ φωνὴν ἐξ οὐρανοῦ γενέσθαι, σὺ εἶ ὁ υἱός μου ὁ ἀγαπητός, ἐν σοὶ εὐδόκησα. For what it's worth, the phrase τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον ("the Holy Spirit") is not feminine.

 

[seekingsolace]

Since we are all his brothers and sisters, I am sure there are some who are somewhat sinister.

His friends call him Stan for short.

 

[seekingsolace]

For heaven's sake, you also do not understand anything! Does so much stupidity really hurt a lot?
I am in this forum to share myself with people of other faiths. I am happy in my faith, and am pleased when others are happy also in their faith. I want to replace me here open. But this is not possible, because my objective information about the Bible and homosexuality is considered a promotion of homosexuality. That's ridiculous. Critique of Christianity or the Bible as factual and authorized them to be put forward; is also frowned upon, because here the fundamentalists have the say.
I do not want people to lose their faith, but I would like that they are no longer so gullible, but use their minds. Have you now understood that, blockhead?
Enough evidence to delete my account, naive forum owner?

So it's to your personal interest to make the Bible 'objective'. Hardly unbiased.

 

[Architeuthus]

Many of the apostles, and Jesus, quoting from the Old Testament.

From the Greek LXX, mostly.

The former Jewish Christians, it was known that the Holy Spirit was feminine.

Judaism does not actually share the Christian doctrine of the Holy Spirit.

Does it hurt a lot actually trying to remain so ignorant?

Here is your award for the worst language and worst anti-Christian bigotry on the forum:

 

[RDKatz]

You should take time to understand Trinitarianism before you try to say it's wrong.

WHy bother. I can simply read the creed to know it is wrong. I don't need to have someone interpret it for me to twist it into something more than it is.

 

[Hammster]

WHy bother. I can simply read the creed to know it is wrong. I don't need to have someone interpret it for me to twist it into something more than it is.

I think your saying the Father is the Son is the Holy Spirit is twisting. So it seems that you do not understand what it is you oppose.