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Are Men Born Sinners? The myth of original sin

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by franklin, Aug 16, 2002.

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  1. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Are men born sinners? Our answer to this question will affect our attitude toward sin and will ultimately affect our conduct as well. The Christian's views on sin cannot help but affect his conduct. If the Christian believes he is born with a sinful nature and sins unavoidably because of that nature, he is not likely to view his sins as the serious crimes they really are. If he believes he has a nature that makes holiness impossible, he is not likely to be concerned about sinning against God. If he believes that God is his Creator and that he has been created with a sinful nature, this must affect his attitude toward God and the justice of God's dealings with man.

    Some common objections to ponder in this discussion:

    But why is it always easier to sin than to do good? And why is it that all men do in fact sin? Doesn't this show that men are born with a sinful nature?

    But if men were not born sinners, it might be possible for someone to live their whole life absolutely free from sin, and they would not need to be saved by Christ, but could be saved by their works.

    But Paul taught that the flesh is sinful and that sin dwells in the flesh. He spoke of "sin that dwelleth in me" (Romans 7:17). He said, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing" (Romans 7:18). And he spoke of "sin which is in my members" (Romans 7:23).

    But God can condemn the whole human race for the sin of Adam if he wants to. God is sovereign and can do anything he wants.

    The doctrine of original sin has been believed by the Church for almost 2000 years. How could you and a few others be right, and everyone else be wrong?
     
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  2. Chili

    Chili Member

    163
    +0


    Definition of sin is important here because all is created in sin and since all of creation is good, sin is good. But I know what you mean. The law was given to Moses not to stop sin but to convict man of sin.



    That is not possible because the cross of eternal salvation is for sinners only. Rigtheousness cannot be earned because that would be transformed into vainglory and become visible as the smoke of burning sulpher.

    The sinful nature of man is real. It is the second nature wherein we are human and have a persona. Our persona is wherein we have an individuality which is a condition of being that belongs to the being (the -ity suffix denotes just that), and is an illusion but perhaps the only way we identify ourself and can identify with ourself.

    If our pesona is our second nature our fist nature is real but surpressed by our second nature and to redeem this first nature the concept sin has been conjectured (it was inspired) as a fishing tool to redeem this first nature. This makes sin an illusion with a purpose and the concept sin is written upon our hearts as if in stone to serve as an anvil whereupon our actions clash like blows of a hammer when we violate the virtues of our incarnate prior nature.

    So it does not matter much who is wrong and who is right as much as that our dual nature is a fact and that only in our prior nature we can be truly free.
     
  3. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +47
    Jehovahs Witness
    The evidence, points to a passing on of sin from Adam to succeeding generations as a result of the recognized law of heredity. This is evidently what the psalmist refers to in saying: “With error I was brought forth with birth pains, and in sin my mother conceived me.” (Ps 51:5)

    Sin, along with its consequences, entered and spread to the entire human race not merely because Adam was the family head of the race but because he, not Eve, was its progenitor, or human life source. From him, as well as from Eve, his offspring would inescapably inherit not merely physical characteristics but also personality traits, including the inclination toward sin. Compare 1Co 15:22, 48, 49.

    In other words, Adam was like a mold with a flaw in it, everything made from that mold had the same flaw. That flaw was Sin.
     
  4. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Hello there mr lightbearer, you make it sound like sin is some kind of a physical disease that people can catch just by standing next to someone who is a consistant sinner! You have just defined the fallicy of the myth of original sin by saying we inherited it from Adam?!?!  First of all, it is a physical impossibility to be born a sinner because of the nature of sin. Sin is not a substance. It has no physical properties and cannot possibly be passed on physically from one person to another. What is sin? The Scripture says, "Sin is the transgression of the law." (1John 3:4).

    I recently posted on this: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=288053#post288053


     
     
  5. psycmajor

    psycmajor self-Banned

    +9
    Of course men are born sinners! On the other hand, us women are born "perfect," and then you guys lead us astray! :D

    j/k:)
     
  6. psycmajor

    psycmajor self-Banned

    +9
    Job 5:7
    Yet man is born to trouble, As the sparks fly upward.

    Job 14:1
    "Man who is born of woman Is of few days and full of trouble.

    Romans 5:14
    Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

    1Corinthians 15:22
    For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

    1Corinthians 15:45
    And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
     
  7. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
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    Paul teaches that Adam's sin was not the sin of his descendants: "Them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression." This shows that Paul did not consider the sin of Adam to be their sin. Those who teach the doctrine of original sin mean that because Adam sinned, men are now born sinners; that is, they become sinners involuntarily (automatically) and necessarily by inheriting a sinful nature from Adam. To interpret the phrase, "made sinners" to mean that men are born sinners and become sinners involuntarily and necessarily by receiving a sinful nature from Adam, is a forced and inconsistent interpretation of this passage; for this passage not only says that all men are "made sinners" because of Adam's transgression, it also says that all men are "made righteous" by the obedience of Christ, and that the free gift of life "came upon all men" by Christ Jesus. So, for the advocates of the doctrine of original sin to arbitrarily give to the phrases "made sinners" and "came upon all men" the meaning of physical force and physical necessity when these phrases refer to Adam's sin, without giving the same meaning to them when they refer to Christ's righteousness, is once again an example of a forced and inconsistent interpretation dictated by a prepossessed belief in the doctrine of original sin.

     
     
  8. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
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    "Paul teaches that Adam's sin was not the sin of his descendants: "

    HUH?

    Yea he does..
    Romans 5:12 point blank

    " Therefore, just as sin entered the world through ONE MAN, and eath through sin, and in this way death came to ALL men, becuase all sinned."

    Look father down in verse 18 "consequenctly, just as the result of ONE TRESPASS {BY THAT ONE MAN ADAM AS EXPLAINED EARLIER IN THE PASSAGE} was copndemnation for all men.
     
  9. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    +412
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    franklin, I'm a little confused as to what this thread is trying to prove.  Are you saying that you believe that mankind did not inherit sin from Adam, but rather that we have a sinful nature as a result of our knowingly transgressing God's Law? :scratch: :confused:

    God bless.
     
  10. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    reframist, I am honored that you have dropped by to visit us here today, I was wondering when I was going to get your un-divided attention?!  ;)   I wish you would try to stay on the topic though!  :D   juuust kidding!!!   that's a joke, calm down!  Actually I was thinking about asking you the same question about some of your threads and what they are trying to prove?!?  ......    ;)   Did you review the questions I initially posted under common objections?  I would recommend you go back and look them over and then come back with your answers.  Go fur it pilgrim, I know you can do it!  I guess you can say this thread is out to prove the myth of original sin and the fact that the scripture doesn't teach that God created us with a sinful nature.  If you can prove otherwise, by all means prove it if you can from the scripture properly interpreted without relying on the private interpretations of men.  2Peter 1:20 . . . .
     
  11. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Well, :scratch: I read them, and then, at your bidding, I went back and read them again.  Before I respond could you maybe clarify where you stand on the issue.  At one point you seem to be saying the claim that man inherited a sinful nature through Adam is true and then you state:

    Who are you talking to here?  Those that don't believe what the Church has preached for 2000 years, that of original sin?  I thought that's what you were saying you didn't agree with. :scratch: :confused:

    God bless.
     
  12. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    reformer, those are the objections of those who agree with original sin or man was created with a sinful nature.  They are worded as if someone who believes in original sin is talking. I'll sum up what I have come to believe is the truth of scripture and that is that I don't believe that God created the human race with a sinful nature, the doctrine of original sin. Sin is the transgression of the law and I know you agree with that.  I hope I clarified this for you, if not give me a holler.....  
     
  13. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Hi there booth, Ok, Paul does not affirm an involuntary, necessary, or irresistible connection between either the sin of Adam and mankind, or the righteousness of Christ and mankind. Otherwise, verse 18 would teach the universal salvation of mankind: "The free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." We know that universal salvation is not taught in the Scripture. Men are not saved involuntarily, automatically, and necessarily because of the obedience of Christ. Nor are they "made sinners" involuntarily, automatically, and necessarily because of the transgression of Adam. But the context shows that men are "made sinners" in the same way that they are "made righteous," that is, voluntarily or willingly. Now Look at Romans 5:18,19 and 21 again carefully. In verse 18, Paul compares the judgment that came upon all men because of Adam with the free gift of life that came upon all men because of Christ, and says "as" the one, "even so" the other. In verse 19, he compares the way the many were "made sinners" with the way the many were "made righteous," and says "as" the one, "so" the other. And in verse 21, he compares the reign of sin through Adam's transgression with the reign of grace through Christ's righteousness, and says "as" the one, "even so" the other. The context and language of this passage require that we understand the connection between Adam's sin and the sins of the rest of mankind to be moral and voluntary instead of physical and involuntary.Paul did not teach that men are "made righteous" involuntarily through Christ, nor did he teach that men are "made sinners" involuntarily through Adam. He did not teach that sin is a substance that dwells in the flesh. He did not teach that sin is inherited from Adam through "natural generation."
     
  14. sola fide

    sola fide neo-Puritan

    323
    +6
    Calvinist
    It's right to say that God did not create man with a sinful nature. He created Adam as a perfect being, sinless and in His own image. But after the fall Sin became a hereditary trait to all man. As many have mentioned earlier, Romans deals with this.
    Sin is in effect like a disease. A child born of parents with AIDS will most likely be born with the disease. In a way, I believe the Bible teaches sin to be passed down in like manner. We are born with sin in our blood. Psalm 51:5- "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me".
    Being born with a sinful nature is not an excuse for us to sin, it is proof that we must battle against the nature which we were born in. Do children have to learn to lie? Do they have to learn to "misbehave"? No they don't, but they do have to be taught to act in a Godly manner. It is not natural to anyone. Even those who have never commited an outright act of sin are still sinners by nature. We are not sinners because we have sinned. We sin because we are sinners. To deny original sin is a slippery slope. It's obvious in scripture, and in life for that matter, that human's natural inclination is toward unrighteousness. That's not an excuse or a vice, but it's a fact that should be embraced if we are to understand the old nature that we are to put behind when Christ has regenerated us. My humble opinion.

    Soli Deo gloria!
     
  15. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +47
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    I cant see how you could come to that conclusion from what I said.  I'm not aware that you can catch for example "Hereditory Heart Disease" form standing next to someone.  But I am aware that you can pass it on in your Genes.

    With regards to your comment about sin being "Transgressing of the law" which means to "Overstep the Commanment" sin as described in scripture is more than that.  Example James 4: 17. "Therefore, if one knows how to do what is right and does not do it, it is a sin for him".  So, not just "Transgression" but "Ommision" too.

    And as for me saying that we inherited sin from Adam, you may want to take that up with the Apostle Paul who, under inspiration from God, made that clear to us. 
     
  16. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

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    Jehovahs Witness
    The apostle speaks of death as ruling as king “from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam.” (Ro 5:14) Adam’s sin is rightly called a “transgression” since it was an overstepping of a stated law, an express command of God to him. Also, when Adam sinned, it was of his own free choice, as a perfect human who was free from disabilities. Clearly, his offspring have never enjoyed that state of perfection. So our sin is not of the likeness of Adam because it is not commited from a state of perfection but from an state of imperfection and is unavoidable, unlike Adam.
     
  17. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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     Lightbearer, I've been over this more then once in my other posts so let me ask you some questions.  Why is it so easy for you believe that God created us with a sinful nature?  Did you ever wonder why Adam & Eve sinned even though they didn't have a sinful nature?  The answer shouldn't be hard to answer, all you have to do is apply a little common senceedand logic.  Did you ever wonder why it is easer to sin than to do good?  The most common answer among the doctrine of the inherited sin nature is that sin is universal. The scripture give another explanation for the universal existence of sin: universal temptation.  Adam and Eve did not have a sinful nature, but they sinned just as easily as any of their descendants. What was it that caused them to sin so easily? It was not a sinful nature, it was temptation. Adam and Eve were tempted and they sinned so easily, so naturally, so spontaneously that it would almost seem that they had a "sinful nature" before they sinned. Like I said in my previous posts, sin is not a disease like cancer or aids that it dwells in the human flesh so that it can be passed on to one person after another.  That thinking is not from the scripture its from the inventions and imaginations of man's private interpretations.  If that is what you want to believe, then by all means continue to believe the error of this doctrine that will cause you to believe other false doctrines as well.  However, I pray that you come to look deeper into the truths of God's word and to eventually forsake these false beliefs like I have as well as many others have done also.  Have a great day brother.
     
  18. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Otherwise, verse 18 would teach the universal salvation of mankind: "The free gift came upon all men unto justification of life"

    You'd be right BUT, you missed something. At the beginning of the passage he makes it clear that to get that justification of life you have to have faith ( 5:1 ) thus your object is quielled in the light of context :)

    "But the context shows that men are "made sinners" in the same way that they are "made righteous," t"

    No, that is not true and the book of romans shows that. God seeming reads your mind and put chapter 7 there. The bondage to sin is not willful, it is nature. Chapter 7 details the thoughs of a christian in his past life. He wants to do good but can't because its his nature to sin. Nonchristians sin, they can't help it, its their nature from birth.

    "Paul did not teach that men are "made righteous" involuntarily through Christ, nor did he teach that men are "made sinners" involuntarily through Adam. "

    Again, you're not looking at the context. At the beginning of the passage he clearly says that we are saved by faith. This passage is to talk about how sin was taken in and out of the world, not about the choice of salvation in accordance with the nonchoice of sinful nature.

    If you do some background reading in Jewish culture, we as a people (ie humanity) were present in adam and sinned through him. therefore the sin is passed down. this is the reason Jesus had to be born of a virgin.
     
  19. suzie

    suzie Senior Member

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    So Franklin, as I posted on another post dealing with sin. You are then saying we have the potential to live a sinless life. We are taught to sin, since it is not a natural occurance to us then right? Adam and Eve introduced sin, and because of their sin, we all die. We try to rule each other--we have a sin nature
     
  20. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +47
    Jehovahs Witness
    I did not say Adam was created sinnful.

    Adams was created perfect.  His sin was a deliberate choice on his part in the same way that the perfect creature now known as Satan and many perfect Angels choose to rebel against God and sinned. 
     
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