Are Men Born Sinners? The myth of original sin

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franklin

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Originally posted by LightBearer
I did not say Adam was created sinnful.

I never implied that you said Adam & Eve was created with a sinful nature either!  Below is the quesiton I asked along with others and maybe you need to go back and reread my post Lightbearer.  I was trying to point out the absurdity of God creating us with a sinful nature by asking this quesiton about Adam and Eve.  Get the picture now?  And I gave you the answer as to why they sinned!

Did you ever wonder why Adam & Eve sinned even though they didn't have a sinful nature?  Well, if they were created perfect, then how was it possible for them to sin? The fact is they did sin as if they had a sinful nature.  Once again, sin is not a substance that infects our physical flesh like some physical disease that can be passed on from person to person. That is a doctrine born and bred from the imaginations of men. Not the scripture!

 
 
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franklin

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I appreciate all the replies and comments to this thread and I have decided to answer some of the common objections starting with the first one:

But why is it always easier to sin than to do good? And why is it that all men do in fact sin? Doesn't this show that men are born with a sinful nature?

This objection assumes that since it is so easy to sin, and since sin is universal, this has to be explained by an inherited sin nature. But the Scripture gives another explanation for the universal existence of sin: universal temptation.
But why is it so much easier to sin than to do good? It has always been easier to sin than to do good. Adam and Eve did not have a sinful nature, but they sinned just as easily as any of their descendants. What was it that caused them to sin so easily? It was not a sinful nature, it was temptation. Adam and Eve were tempted and they sinned so easily, so naturally, so spontaneously that it would almost seem that they had a "sinful nature" before they sinned.
It has always been easier to sin than to resist temptation. James 1:12 says, "Blessed is he that endureth temptation."
Sin is universal, not because of an inherited sin nature, but because temptation is universal, and, because when men are tempted, they choose to indulge their own desires, rather than obey the law of God written in their hearts.
 
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pax

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Adam and Eve sinned because of free will. They were tempted, they had a free choice and picked the wrong one. They knew what was right and knew it was forbidden, but the serpent talked them into eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Just because you are not born with original sin does not mean you can not fall to sin. I don't like to think of original sin of something, but rather as nothing where something should be. Adam and Eve were born with sanctifying grace in their souls, but lost it because they fell to sin and were thrown from the Garden of Eden. Baptism removes original sin by allowing sanctifying grace to flow freely through our souls again.
 
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sola fide

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Something else I think that needs to be addressed is that as the last post mentioned...Adam and Eve had a perfect and free will. But since the fall man's will is in bondage to sin. Ephesians 2 addresses this. We are born dead to the things of God, in bondage to the prince of the power of the air. But we are made alive through Christ. If we are in fact born dead in sin, that would make us sinners by nature, not just by practice.

Soli Deo gloria!
 
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franklin

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Hi y'all, There are many reasons why the doctine of original sin is false, however, I will start by stating only one for now. It makes sin a misfortune and a calamity rather than a crime.
In fact, if the doctrine of original sin were true, sin would be a calamity rather than a crime. Could a sinful nature be the crime of him upon whom it is entailed without his knowledge or consent? If this doctrine were true, the sinner would be the most unfortunate creature in the universe. To blame him or call him criminal for his sins would be absurd, and to punish him for his sins would be a cruel injustice. He would not deserve punishment for his sins, but would rather deserve pity and compassion for the misfortune he had suffered by being born into this world with a sinful nature. And, of course, under these circumstances the Scripture would have to be rewritten. For it never speaks of the sinner as unfortunate. It speaks of the sinner's guilt and ill-desert. In the Scripture, sin is represented as a crime that deserves the everlasting punishment.  
 
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LouisBooth

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"To blame him or call him criminal for his sins would be absurd"

No it wouldn't. Why do you say this? Again, I say according to jewish culture we were present with adam and sinned along with him. We sin and have a sin nature because of the one trespass.

"He would not deserve punishment for his sins, but would rather deserve pity and compassion for the misfortune he had suffered by being born into this world with a sinful nature."

Please read some on jewish culture so you can understand this is as far from the truth as possible. We are at fault because we sin. We are seperated from God because of the sin we are born into. Did you read my other post at all?
 
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LightBearer

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Originally posted by franklin
 

Adam and Eve did not have a sinful nature, but they sinned just as easily as any of their descendants. What was it that caused them to sin so easily? It was not a sinful nature, it was temptation. Adam and Eve were tempted and they sinned so easily, so naturally, so spontaneously that it would almost seem that they had a "sinful nature" before they sinned.

 

What caused then to "sin so easily" was there a flaw in God's creation? 

What caused then to be so easily and quickly tempted?
 
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franklin

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   Originally posted by suzie
Franklin-Jesus is God --fully human and fully divine. If we are sinless and fall to temptation, what about those who resist temptation and remain sinless throughout their life?  


They wouldnt be in need of a savior would they?
 

This objection reveals the sinister and ungodly nature of the original sin dogma. What does this objection imply? It implies that it would be criminal, wicked, and sinful for anyone to live a life without sin. It implies that men ought to be born with a sinful nature, lest it be possible for someone to live a life without sin! It implies that God wants men to be depraved sinners, that he wants them to be born with a sinful nature so that he can have the honor and glory of saving them. It implies that it would be impudence, arrogant pride, and high treason against God to live a life in humble obedience to God and never rebel against him. It implies that God would be insulted and dishonored if someone obeyed God all his life and never sinned against him. It implies that to please and glorify God we must be forced to displease and dishonor him. In a word, it implies that it would be sinful to be free to obey God. And why? Because if we were free to obey God, someone might do it and would not need to be saved. What logic! But this is an example of the type of reasoning that must be resorted to in order to defend the dogma of original sin.

Dear suszie, I hope you and all the other doctrine of original sin defenders are beginning to see the absurdity in this teaching that God purposely created all human beings from birth with a depraved, sinful nature. 
 
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:) Let me add a little light on this subject, If you would read Romans 5:12-14 we learn that the (only sin) that was passed from Adam is DEATH.

Verse 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so DEATH passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law,
14 Nevertheless Death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that HAD NOT sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression who is the figure of him that was to come.

If we say that men are born sinners, then we must say that Jesus was born a sinner too. And you know that's not true.

Sin is a transgression of God's law, and no baby can transgress any laws, becuase the have no knowledge of what law is.

Sin is understanding good and evil, and then choosing evil becuase of lust.

Read through verse 17. :)
 
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LouisBooth

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"It implies that God wants men to be depraved sinners"

Noo...aww..he left..okay, well for the record this is not so. We choose to sin, we where with Adam and sinned also. REad soem jewish culture, its much easier then having me explain it!! LOL
 
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LightBearer

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From the Bible we learn that the first man Adam, through disobedience, lost perfect human life for all his offspring. We read: “Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” (Rom. 5:12)

Adam actually sold the entire human race into slavery to sin and death. That is why the apostle Paul wrote: “I am fleshly, sold under sin.” (Ro 7:14) The strictness of God’s justice made it impossible for mankind itself to provide its own redeemer. (Ps 49:6-9) This was because all of Adams offspring were tainted with sin. A ransom price was therefore needed to effect a release for Adam’s offspring. According to God’s standard of perfect justice as revealed in the Mosaic law, that price had to correspond exactly to what had been forfeited. The Mosaic law stated: “You must give soul for soul.” (Ex. 21:23) That is why Jesus was conceived by holy spirit without the aid of an imperfect human father, he had precisely what Adam forfeited—human life totally free from all taint of sin, weaknesses and imperfections. That is why Jesus could give himself “a corresponding ransom for all.” 1 Tim. 2:6.
 
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Desolate Owl

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This objection reveals the sinister and ungodly nature of the original sin dogma. What does this objection imply? It implies that it would be criminal, wicked, and sinful for anyone to live a life without sin. It implies that men ought to be born with a sinful nature, lest it be possible for someone to live a life without sin! It implies that God wants men to be depraved sinners, that he wants them to be born with a sinful nature so that he can have the honor and glory of saving them. It implies that it would be impudence, arrogant pride, and high treason against God to live a life in humble obedience to God and never rebel against him. It implies that God would be insulted and dishonored if someone obeyed God all his life and never sinned against him. It implies that to please and glorify God we must be forced to displease and dishonor him. In a word, it implies that it would be sinful to be free to obey God. And why? Because if we were free to obey God, someone might do it and would not need to be saved. What logic! But this is an example of the type of reasoning that must be resorted to in order to defend the dogma of original sin.

Dear suszie, I hope you and all the other doctrine of original sin defenders are beginning to see the absurdity in this teaching that God purposely created all human beings from birth with a depraved, sinful nature. 

franklin, have you been acknowledging the material you've been quoting? I haven't seen any acknowledgements so far, unless I've missed them.

For those who are interested, http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs05.htm is the site which the quoted post has come from.

"To blame him or call him criminal for his sins would be absurd"

No it wouldn't. Why do you say this? Again, I say according to jewish culture we were present with adam and sinned along with him. We sin and have a sin nature because of the one trespass.

How do you resolve this with Romans 5:14?

"Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come."

You are saying that we sinned with Adam, yet this verse seems to suggest that those who came after him did not sin with him.

You are right that Jewish culture was very different to ours and definitely wasn't as individualistic as we are. But are you sure that Jewish thinking reflects God's thinking?

For example, if you read through Ezekiel 18, the Jews thought that children should be punished for the sins of their fathers. Yet God tells them that this is unjust. What are your thoughts on this chapter?
 
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Kyranjaxipun

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This thread was an excellent experience. An atheist introduced a debatable topic on sin nature, politely requested sound argumentation against his opinion, and courageously disassembled fallacious reasoning. He worked hard to demonstrate logic for children and adults, and as a reward he got kicked out of the Christians Only section.

I've never been to a church or a house that was Christians Only.

It's like seeing a black person kicked off a white bus.

Reformationist, I'm talking to you. You have an attitude problem, and it shows. On page 2 you acted like you had never seen a logical debate before. You were asking dumb questions and making a bunch of smilies, but there's just one problem: you're 33 with a 12k post count. No one believes you're a stranger to argumentation.

You can fool kids who don't know any better, but not me. I can just imagine children thinking your behavior is acceptable, so I'm calling you out. Do you think you're funny? Cuz I'm laughing.

Kids,

Questions like Franklin's can be answered with reason. In apologetics, we use reason to tear up preconceived notions about God's nature and message. We refute (soundly argue against) biased statements like "Only an unjust God would flood the world."

And as Christians, we must always use reason like a careful scientist to refine our judgment and understanding of God and the Bible. If we do not strongly consider our doctrine for consistency, soundness, and validation in scripture, then we let our impressions shape our beliefs.

Calvinist "human depravity" is the theological term for the idea that people are born condemned to the lake of fire. I've never been fond of the idea that God condemns babies because that's a major insult to God's enormous character. Jesus Himself blows that possibility away in John 9:3 when He declares a blind man to have not sinned. Notice the Calvinists of Jesus's day asking the same dumb question to blame the poor blind man for his blindness, "Who sinned, the blind man or his parents?"

In the book of Jonah, God considers the children in the city He wants to destroy, so He sends Jonah to preach in that city. Does that sound like an all-condemning God to you, kids?

And if you don't understand why God flooded the world, read me loud and clear: the world was filled with violence. There were no kids. There were no schools. There were no video games or Disneylands. There was one big fight, and God saved the innocent before the storm...because He is a good God.

Jesus didn't come to save you from an enemy God out to destroy you. God is your friend. Jesus came healing and preaching God's word to convince stubborn people to change. He used the carrot-and-stick approach: the bad get punished; the good get rewarded.

And they murdered Him.

But before they murdered Him, Jesus cursed those hypocrites by letting everyone believe He intended to be their sacrifice. How'd Jesus do that? First Jesus understood the culture: violent, stupid people. Next Jesus understood the verbal limitations of violent, stupid people: they can't smell what the Rock is cooking. They were so dumb that they would've believed the Rock was cooking them dinner. Then Jesus spoke in a way that the sensitive hypocrites would interpret as vulgar in John 6; Jesus told everyone to eat His flesh and drink His blood, but in John 6:63 He made it clear: "...the words I speak to you..."

He meant that everyone would be saved if they followed his instruction to love good and hate evil. Just read John 18:37. Jesus didn't tell Pontius Pilate that He came to die; He said He came to preach the truth. Isn't that consistent with what God sent other prophets to do? And they didn't even have the power to heal people. Jesus confronted evil and rewarded good everywhere He went until the police nabbed Him.

And Jesus knew it was going to happen because stupid, violent people are very predictable. He knew His message would earn Him an execution, and He spread the word anyway.

And when the loonies interrogated Jesus, "Are you the Son of God mister smarty pants," Jesus sang a line from Enimem, "I am whatever you say I am. If I wasn't, then why would I say I am?"

The curse remains today because people continue to accept Jesus as their scapegoat instead of their leader. Why? Because when you have no responsibility, you have no reason to do good; you can sin all you want. That's what evil people want: no rules, no responsibility, equal wages, and no punishment.

And if you've read this far, then you probably understand that this is nothing like what you're taught about Jesus in church. Well guess what? Real life isn't like anything you're taught in school either.

Prepare for college, get your degree, get your presentation skills, don't be outspoken unless you're anonymous, and get to safety.

I'm done.
 
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PastorJim

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Jesus didn't come to save you from an enemy God out to destroy you. God is your friend. Jesus came healing and preaching God's word to convince stubborn people to change. He used the carrot-and-stick approach: the bad get punished; the good get rewarded.

I disagree.

Simply "changing" isn't the issue. If you never sinned again, then there would still be the matter of the sin on your record.

Jesus came as a sacrifice so that your sin could be forgiven, not simply to "change" us. It's true that we do change, but that's as a result of being born again and being regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Please see Romans 5.

The Bible also says that God is not the friend of sinners, but the enemy of sinners.
And they murdered Him.

He meant that everyone would be saved if they followed his instruction to love good and hate evil.

But that isn't how the Bible tells us that we're saved. It tells us that we're saved through repentence and faith.

Jesus confronted evil and rewarded good everywhere He went until the police nabbed Him.

There is none good but God alone.

And if you've read this far, then you probably understand that this is nothing like what you're taught about Jesus in church.

Or in the Bible.

After reading your posts, somehow I don't think that Reformationist is the problem.
 
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