Are creationists dwindling in number?

Northwest Savant

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You don't seem to understand how science is done.

Yes, dates have changed, but they tend to get more and more accurate. I would love to see that source of your date. Creationists often pick dates on the fringe and falsely claim "this was the date"...
But we have learned more since the time when you first saw your date. Scientists used t think that the expansion of the Big Bang was a one shot deal, but in the last 20 years they found, again with better and more accurate telescopes, that it is still expanding today and that changed the date a bit. It may change a bit more in the future.

I don't know why you asked your question. Surely you know that the dates of YEC's are totally wrong.

Or at the very least I hope that you do.

The point is, that you have made an argument that science does not know how old the universe is. So why do you believe that the universe is 13.8 billion years old if you know that science is going to move the "decimal point"? When will you take a stand and make a commitment to state the universe is 13.8 billion years old as a fact of science, and when you have grand children 35 years from now, convince them that the fact is still true. I'm just telling you. 35 years from now what you are typing on this forum (and quite possibly in October of 2018) will not be a scientific fact anymore. Yet the Bible has never changed the date God created the universe.
 
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Subduction Zone

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The point is, that you have made an argument that science does not know how old the universe is. So why do you believe that the universe is 13.8 billion years old if you know that science is going to move the "decimal point"? When will you take a stand and make a commitment to state the universe is 13.8 billion years old as a fact of science, and when you have grand children 35 years from now, convince them that the fact is still true. I'm just telling you. 35 years from now what you are typing on this forum (and quite possibly in October of 2018) will not be a scientific fact anymore. Yet the Bible has never changed the date God created the universe.

I did no such thing. That is our best estimate of the age of the universe with our present knowledge.

We know that the Biblical narrative is ridiculously wrong.

And science is not about to "move the decimal point". Unless we find out what, if anything, happened before the Big Bang.


Yes, the value that science gives us may change a bit now and then. But that is infinitely better than a source that is completely wrong.

The Bible was shown to be wrong over 200 years ago when scientists realized that there was no global flood. It has only gotten worse for it since. You are desperately denying reality.
 
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Northwest Savant

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I did no such thing. That is our best estimate of the age of the universe with our present knowledge.

Yes, you did make the argument that science does not know how old the universe is. There is a difference between scientific fact and scientific theory. You believe in a scientific theory as your factual evidence to the age of the universe. But a scientific theory does not become fact until it is proven. Your reference to the internet as your source of education, and in particular to a wikipedia article as your source to come up with the answer to my question for you:

"What does education state is the actual age of the universe?"

and your answer:

"A rather poorly worded question, but the universe as we know it is about 13.8 billion years old: Big Bang - Wikipedia"

seems to me to make clear that you believe as fact that the universe as we know it is about 13.8 billion years old. However, you then go on to state that the dates change and that theories are adjusted. Well, in the case of the big bang theory, there really can not be an "adjustment". There can only be an error that was either not considered previously or that science did not have the means to evaluate. As far as the theory being proven true, well, this has not happened since it was first proposed in the 1920's. You made an argument that science does not know how old the universe is. That is a fact.
 
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Seejer

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Yet the Bible has never changed the date God created the universe.

The Koran has never changed the claim Muhammad flew to the moon with winged horse.

Does this somehow make it feasible to expect airlines to replace airplanes with busses attached to winged horses ?
 
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Subduction Zone

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Yes, you did make the argument that science does not know how old the universe is. There is a difference between scientific fact and scientific theory. You believe in a scientific theory as your factual evidence to the age of the universe. But a scientific theory does not become fact until it is proven. Your reference to the internet as your source of education, and in particular to a wikipedia article as your source to come up with the answer to my question for you:

"What does education state is the actual age of the universe?"

and your answer:

"A rather poorly worded question, but the universe as we know it is about 13.8 billion years old: Big Bang - Wikipedia"

seems to me to make clear that you believe as fact that the universe as we know it is about 13.8 billion years old. However, you then go on to state that the dates change and that theories are adjusted. Well, in the case of the big bang theory, there really can not be an "adjustment". There can only be an error that was either not considered previously or that science did not have the means to evaluate. As far as the theory being proven true, well, this has not happened since it was first proposed in the 1920's. You made an argument that science does not know how old the universe is. That is a fact.
If you can't be honest there is no point in having a discussion with you.

The sciences do not claim to be perfect. The problem is that you follow a book that has been shown to be grossly wrong. A book that has no means of corrections.

We know that the sciences are self correcting. How would you correct the errors in the Bible?
 
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Northwest Savant

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The Koran has never changed the claim Muhammad flew to the moon with winged horse.

Does this somehow make it feasible to expect airlines to replace airplanes with busses attached to winged horses ?

Well, actually, this thread is about creationism. Does the Koran have something to state about creationism and its statistical decline in belief in the United States according to those who receive their education on the internet?
 
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Northwest Savant

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If you can't be honest there is no point in having a discussion with you.

The sciences do not claim to be perfect. The problem is that you follow a book that has been shown to be grossly wrong. A book that has no means of corrections.

We know that the sciences are self correcting. How would you correct the errors in the Bible?

All I can tell you is that I stated the same things 35 years ago that you are stating today. But I was enrolled at the University of Texas, not wikipedia, and thought we were at the brink of finally putting to an end the long debate of how the universe was created and when it occurred. I have not found any errors in the Bible, but that is a different subject that perhaps would be better started on a new forum thread. If you do start that thread, I will keep you as person I follow and will look for your post. I didn't mean to upset you. I just do not want another person to make the same mistake I did. You seem to be a person that can understand philosophical logic, and I hope that you do not fall into the trap of believing premises based on circular thinking that many scientific theories, or even polls rely upon to seemingly produce facts. Have faith!
 
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lesliedellow

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Traditional American creationist beliefs have always been in the 40-50% range. I decided to look up some Gallup polls to see where things stand and per their most recent poll on the subject, it looks like creationist beliefs are falling:

If they are, it is not before time. It is not difficult to think of people professionally involved with religion, who were YECs, but are so no longer. John Walton and Bruce Waltke come to mind.
 
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Subduction Zone

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All I can tell you is that I stated the same things 35 years ago that you are stating today. But I was enrolled at the University of Texas, not wikipedia, and thought we were at the brink of finally putting to an end the long debate of how the
universe was created and when it occurred. I have not found any errors in the Bible, but that is a different subject that perhaps would be better started on a new forum thread. If you do start that thread, I will keep you as person I follow and will look for your post. I didn't mean to upset you. I just do not want another person to make the same mistake I did. You seem to be a person that can understand philosophical logic, and I hope that you do not fall into the trap of believing premises based on circular thinking that many scientific theories, or even polls rely upon to seemingly produce facts. Have faith!

I already explained to you why your example was poor.

And you could not have studied the Bible at all if you did not find any errors in it. It has hundreds of self contradictions alone. The entire book of Genesis and probably Exodus as well are mythical. It has bad science and bad morals.

Now I am not a physicist. So I am not going to give an explanation to the age of the universe justice. But I can explain to you how we know the age of the Earth. I can even expalin to an honest creationist how we know that there never was a worldwide flood. The problem is in finding a truly honest creationist.
 
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Nithavela

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The tares are outgrowing the wheat -- just as predicted.

Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

We need to wake up and smell the tares.
stock-photo-beautiful-happy-farmer-woman-worker-in-wheat-field-enjoying-sunset-and-smell-of-grain-391556146.jpg
 
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dmmesdale

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First of all, this has nothing to do with atheism.
If they reject the supernatural from the get go then that is atheism. Even if a person claims to be agnostic about God they are atheists by choice or conviction. Quote


Ernst Mayr has explained: “The real core of Darwinism, however,
is the theory of natural selection. This theory is so important for the Dar-
winian because it permits the explanation of adaptation, the ‘design’ of the
natural theologian, by natural means, instead of by divine intervention.”
12
Or as Mayr put it recently:
First, Darwinism rejects all supernatural phenomena and causations. (That is atheism) The theory of evolution by natural selection explains the adaptedness and diversity of the world solely materialistically. It no longer requires God as creator or designer (although one is certainly free to believe in God even if one accepts evolution). Darwin pointed out that creation, as described in the Bible and the origin accounts of other cultures, was contradicted by almost any aspect of the natural world. Every aspect of the “wonderful design” so admired by natural theologians could be explained by natural selection.
Science is agnostic when it comes to the supernatural by its very nature;
Does not distinguish with scientists. Science here is addressed as an entity when it is not. It is an abstract field of study, wrong most of the time. If viewed from a historical perspective. The cholera example was provided earlier. To add to that, the cures of those in consensus actually poisoned their patients by making them puke and defecate all the more. Also bloodletting, absent from the bible, was practiced for centuries. Totally useless. Their incompetence bordered on the criminal.
science cannot make any claims one way or another about the supernatural.
Fishbowl logic.
Ultimately, that's up to personal belief.
Not to be voiced in the classroom. Bloodletting was group belief and was useless and so is atheistic evolution. Atheistic evolution is taught as science in classrooms where dissent is not allowed or considered injecting religion into the classrooms. They will not allow their pet theories to be challenged. They want an unchallenged monopoly, and that is what they have. Any dissent is to question science itself. That is how they marginalize dissenters. It is manipulation bordering on the abuse. ''I am going to teach you the science'' means we are going to ram blind watchmaker evolution down your throat and any dissent or questioning will not be allowed. The results of polls like this will change dramatically if they understand they are endorsing atheistic blind watchmaker evolution as science when it is nothing more than materialistic historical myth under the guise of science.
Second, I've always found it amusing this attempts at "compartmentalizing" science into what creationists find acceptable and unacceptable.
That is not a rational argument.
Especially since such compartmentalization doesn't exist in practice.
It does in practice. They teach exclusive blind watchmaker evolution in public education classrooms. They hit on it in two grades. Lucky for us, they do not cover it extensively.
Regardless, part of what is an applied science includes phylogenetic applications involving common descent relationships that creationists tend to reject. And naturally this includes humans sharing evolutionary relationships with other primates; exactly what was applied in one of the papers I linked (on phylogenetic shadowing).
None of it validates blind watchmaker evolution. You arguments fail as explained earlier.
 
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AV1611VET

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No, just the most elementary maths it is possible to imagine, short of 2+2=4.
If 1 is increased by a magnitude of 9, does the decimal point move?

If 8 is increased by a magnitude of .25, does the decimal point move?

So whether it is 9, or whether it is .25, does the decimal point move?

If 9 becomes 13.8, does the decimal point move?
 
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lesliedellow

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If 1 is increased by a magnitude of 9, does the decimal point move?

If 8 is increased by a magnitude of .25, does the decimal point move?

So whether it is 9, or whether it is .25, does the decimal point move?

If 9 becomes 13.8, does the decimal point move?

No, 9 is just a short hand way of writing 9.0 recurring.

An operation on two two elements of a set requires that they belong to the same set. The integer 9 belongs to the set of all integers, whereas 13.8 belongs to the set of all real numbers. However, the real numbers 9.0 and 13.8 do belong to the same set, so you can add them.
 
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AV1611VET

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No, 9 is just a short hand way of writing 9.0 recurring.

An operation on two two elements of a set requires that they belong to the same set. The integer 9 belongs to the set of all integers, whereas 13.8 belongs to the set of all real numbers. However, the real numbers 9.0 and 13.8 do belong to the same set.
LOL -- fantastic.

This is solid aurum.
 
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AV1611VET

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Everything I write is pure gold.
The thing is though, kids see this kinda stuff, and when adults talk like this, it's no wonder their grades suffer.

One theologian once pointed out that our schools used to teach reading, 'riting, and 'rithmetic.

Now it's question, question, question.

If a child can justify why he said 9 + 1 = 14, he gets credit for it.

Not to mention a trophy for participation.

 
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jimmyjimmy

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Traditional American creationist beliefs have always been in the 40-50% range. I decided to look up some Gallup polls to see where things stand and per their most recent poll on the subject, it looks like creationist beliefs are falling:

- In US, Belief in Creationist View of Humans at New Low

This particular poll didn't include any demographics based on ages. Age-based demographics are always interesting since it can predict how things will likely trend in the future.

A prior 2014 Gallup poll did include age-based demographics (In U.S., 42% Believe Creationist View of Human Origins). The breakdown of strict YECist beliefs (that God made humans < 10,000 years ago) were as follows:
  • Age 18-29 - 28%
  • Age 30-49 - 46%
  • Age 50-64 - 44%
  • Age 65+ - 50%
For ages 30+ creationist beliefs remained in that 44-50% range, but there was sharp drop off for younger folk between 18 to 29. And given that the oldest demographic, 65+, has the higher % of that belief, this suggests that as the generations shift (i.e. the older people die), the trend will be to a lower overall belief in creationism.

edited to add:

Here is another article on the subject referencing a Pew Research Center poll that points to a similar trend:


Evolution Is Finally Winning Out Over Creationism, Especially Among the Young

Argumentum ad populum.
 
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