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Are Creationists Afraid of Debate?

Dannager

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I'm not ducking anything, Dannager. If you want to address anything I'm saying, go ahead, but I challenge you or anyone to take my challenge and then show how God created this universe any other way than perfecft.
Your challenge was solved in the first post. It was pointed out that the question you posed was loaded - it presumed that the perfect car could be wrecked. That's all there is to it.
 
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Dannager

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Okie - doke --- then I'm assuming you're "perfect car" is one that is omnipotent? I thought you just said above it wasn't?
AV1611VET, I know that you know what "omnipotent" means. I shouldn't need to define it for you. And I also know that you know that the inability to be wrecked doesn't qualify as omnipotence.

Or perhaps I'm mistaken. Maybe you don't know what "omnipotent" means. Do you, AV1611VET?
 
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AV1611VET

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Your challenge was solved in the first post. It was pointed out that the question you posed was loaded - it presumed that the perfect car could be wrecked. That's all there is to it.

Then I contend that God's perfect Creation can be (and was) wrecked as well; through no fault of His own.
 
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Dannager

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Then I contend that God's perfect Creation can be (and was) wrecked as well; through no fault of His own.
And we contend that you're wrong. You haven't defined perfect in any meaningful fashion, and in the opinion of many of us, if something is actually perfect it would not be able to be destroyed.
 
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Valkhorn

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I want this forum to be a Creation Science think tank without interruption from atheists and evolutionists. We can discuss with evolutionists all we want on the CvE forum. I want them out and I'm dead serious. Get a mod to fix this for us please.

From: http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=41828657&postcount=1

Then again, that's probably just a side-effect of wanted to be exposed to different beliefs and actively challenge ourselves.

It's posts like this that make me want this forum to be closed.

From: http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=41848794&postcount=9

Kind of an interest set of quotes there.
 
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AV1611VET

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And we contend that you're wrong. You haven't defined perfect in any meaningful fashion, and in the opinion of many of us, if something is actually perfect it would not be able to be destroyed.

Let me get this straight, Dannager. If we define "perfect" sans omnipotent, then the answer to my challenge is: it's my fault? But if we define "perfect" as including omnipotence, then the answer to my challenge is: it's your fault?

Are you trying to tell me that the fault lies with the definition of "perfect," and not with the one who actually wrecked the car???
 
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Dannager

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Let me get this straight, Dannager. If we define "perfect" sans omnipotent, then the answer to my challenge is: it's my fault?
Yes.
But if we define "perfect" as including omnipotence, then the answer to my challenge is: it's your fault?
Nope, it's still your fault.
Are you trying to tell me that the fault lies with the definition of "perfect," and not with the one who actually wrecked the car???
Nope, fault lies with the person who falsely advertised an imperfect car as perfect.
 
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AV1611VET

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Yes.

Nope, it's still your fault.

Nope, fault lies with the person who falsely advertised an imperfect car as perfect.

* sigh *

Okay --- thanks for wasting my time, Dannager.
 
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FishFace

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Wrong --- you're confusing perfection with omnipotence. Jesus was perfect, yet they beat Him to a pulp, driving thorns through His head, nails through his hands (or wrists) and feet, and a spear through His side.

But Jesus would have been a worse Jesus if he hadn't been damaged in that way, would he not? Surely he had to go through those things for your salvation. In which case, if he couldn't, he wouldn't be any good at saving humankind, which was his main purpose, so I gather.

A car's purpose is to get you from one place to another, and if you can wreck a car, it stops being able to accomplish that purpose.

Anyway, why don't you take my perfect car challenge. If I create a perfect car, and a perfect car driver (or car "steward" if you want to use the biblical term) and the driver/steward wrecks the car, would you blame me or the steward?
 
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UncleHermit

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Does it matter?

Yes! That's why so many people asked you what you meant by "perfect car" in the original thread.


Let's go with "without defect," and see where that takes us.

If it's just an ordinary car that's in pristine condition, I'd say the fault lies with whoever wrecked it.
 
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AV1611VET

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If it's just an ordinary car that's in pristine condition, I'd say the fault lies with whoever wrecked it.

Thank you! Now was that so hard?

(Man --- it's like pulling teeth around here!)
 
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TemperateSeaIsland

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Does it matter? Let's go with "without defect," and see where that takes us.

OK...

Well looking at the original challenge

My Perfect Car Challenge

If I build the perfect car and give it to you; and you wreck it; is it my fault?

There is no fault, You gave me the car I can do whatever I want with it without consequence.
 
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BrainHertz

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Could we please leave robots out of my challenge? The only two people mentioned in my challenge are you and me. Please don't add to it, then claim it's somehow "rather inappropriate," okay?

p.s. And I built the car --- not you.

Why leave the driver out of the analogy? The analogy is not apposite if you have only the car being created by one agent and not also the driver who subsequently wrecks it.

And I didn't claim my analogy was inappropriate - I said yours was because of what it leaves out.

PS My analogy, I can put in it whoever I please and have things made by whoever I please. You don't have exclusive rights to use analogies...
 
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Vene

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Thank you! Now was that so hard?

(Man --- it's like pulling teeth around here!)
It helps when you use words correctly. Perfect is a state that cannot be improved. If there is a 'perfect' car that can be wrecked it can be improved by making it impervious to damage. Therefore the 'perfect' car is not perfect. As for as a car without defect, that is nothing special. Unless you're admitting that our 'perfect' little world never was perfect. Doesn't your god proclaim that his work is "good" in genesis, not "perfect?" An omnipotent being could easily have built a perfect world, but nope, we got ripped off.
 
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