Are Christians the new chosen people?

[OldWiseGuy]

Not Jewish.

So are eleven of the twelve tribes.

 

[brinny]

So are eleven of the twelve tribes.

LOL!

I'm not Jewish. I have therefore been grafted into the righteous root by my faith in the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

Are Christians the new chosen people? Or the the new Israel?

Yes, Christians are Jews after the circumcision of the Heart/Spirit(Romans 2:28-29; Acts 15:7-9; Romans 10:8; Colossians 2:11-13; Philippians 3:3) under the new covenant, we are the Chosen people of YHWH. The Kingdom was taken from the OT Jews and given us(Matt 21:43; Romans 10:19,20; Acts 28:25-28) those in Israel today are not Jews but are of the Synagogue of Satan(Revelation 2:9, Revelation 3:9).

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Are Christians the new chosen people? Or the the new Israel?

No, there is a new covenant now, the old having been ended, and the believers are now grafted into the vine, Jesus, where there is no longer Jew nor Gentile but one people.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God made certain unconditional promises. He has kept them even when we don't deserve them.

The unconditional are few. The earth will never be destroyed by a flood and the Messiah will come (for us came) and will come again. That’s pretty much it.

 

[berachah]

Are there any natural Hebrews left? Genetically, NO. The current state of Israel is an ungodly regime that persecutes Orthodox Jews. Perhaps they could be considered the Jews, but certainly not Zionist Israelis. The natural Jews came into their covenant by faith, much as Christians do, but the Old has passed away and any restoration of the Torah Jews to God will be through the Body of Christ and not through the natural land which is under bondage

 

[Dave L]

In the New Testament, Jesus IS Israel along with those united to him by faith.

“And [Joseph, Mary and Jesus] was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)

“When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

Plus, circumcision made one a physical Jew [not blood] and a member if Israel in the OT. Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross making physical membership in Israel (now believers only) forever impossible.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

LOL!

I'm not Jewish. I have therefore been grafted into the righteous root by my faith in the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The unconditional are few. The earth will never be destroyed by a flood and the Messiah will come (for us came) and will come again. That’s pretty much it.

The Messiah coming is called the "scepter" promise. There is also the "birthright" promise. Both are unconditional.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

God's chosen people are all those who are in Jesus Christ. The bible says if any man be in Christ, he is Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

People focus on Israel being God's chosen people and forget the reason why they are chosen. The reason why they were chosen was to fulfill the gospel commission in Matthew 28:19 and 20. God wanted to reach the entire world and needed a people to do so. They were chosen for that purpose. God told Abraham that through him ALL NATIONS of the earth would be blessed. Whoever has come to Christ, is called to fulfil the purpose originally given to the physical nation of israel.

Put the two relevant verses in Galatians 3 together and a different picture emerges.

:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This comports with Jesus' commission to go only to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

 

[Copperhead]

So are eleven of the twelve tribes.

well Ezra and Nehemiah seemed to think that all of them collectively were both Jews and Israel when they brought their remnant groups back from the Babylonian Exile. Ezra called his group Jews 9 times and Israel 40 times. Nehemiah called his group Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times. In the NT, there are at least 4 tribes mentioned with specific individuals associated with them. And all were considered of Israel. The term "Jew" and "Israel" had become interchangeable in meaning. Only those with an agenda fail to see that.

Paul says that the promises, the adoption, the glory, the covenants (plural), giving of the law, service to God still pertain (present tense) to his physical brethren of the flesh, Israel. Romans 9:3-5.

The OT is comprised of many covenants. Some were made in a unilateral fashion by God and could not be broken by anyone if they wanted to. The Noahic Covenant, the Abrahamic Covenant, the Davidic Covenant for instance. Jeremiah specifically says the New Covenant would abrogate the Mosaic/Sinai covenant that God made with the Hebrews when He brought them out of Egypt. Jeremiah 31:31-32. The other covenants are still in effect. If, for instance, the Noahic covenant is not in effect, folks all over the world better start taking swimming lessons and pile up on some flood insurance, even if they have a cabin on Mt. Everest. If, for instance, the Davidic Covenant is no longer valid, then Yeshua has no authority anymore to be King in the line of David. But Gabriel confirmed this covenant with Mary when he visited her to tell her she would be the mother of the Messiah.

But that doesn't mean Israel is the Ekklesia (Church), which is a unique identity in the Messiah. That is made up of both Hebrew and Gentile believers. Those who have placed their trust in Yeshua feed off the root of Israel, the faith of the patriarchs, but that doesn't make the Church physical, earthly Israel.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

well Ezra and Nehemiah seemed to think that all of them collectively were both Jews and Israel when they brought their remnant groups back from the Babylonian Exile. Ezra called his group Jews 9 times and Israel 40 times. Nehemiah called his group Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times. In the NT, there are at least 4 tribes mentioned with specific individuals associated with them. And all were considered of Israel. The term "Jew" and "Israel" had become interchangeable in meaning. Only those with an agenda fail to see that.

Paul says that the promises, the adoption, the glory, the covenants (plural), giving of the law, service to God still pertain (present tense) to his physical brethren of the flesh, Israel. Romans 9:3-5.

The OT is comprised of many covenants. Some were made in a unilateral fashion by God and could not be broken by anyone if they wanted to. The Noahic Covenant, the Abrahamic Covenant, the Davidic Covenant for instance. Jeremiah specifically says the New Covenant would abrogate the Mosaic/Sinai covenant that God made with the Hebrews when He brought them out of Egypt. Jeremiah 31:31-32. The other covenants are still in effect. If, for instance, the Noahic covenant is not in effect, folks all over the world better start taking swimming lessons and pile up on some flood insurance, even if they have a cabin on Mt. Everest. If, for instance, the Davidic Covenant is no longer valid, then Yeshua has no authority anymore to be King in the line of David. But Gabriel confirmed this covenant with Mary when he visited her to tell her she would be the mother of the Messiah.

But that doesn't mean Israel is the Ekklesia (Church), which is a unique identity in the Messiah. That is made up of both Hebrew and Gentile believers. Those who have placed their trust in Yeshua feed off the root of Israel, the faith of the patriarchs, but that doesn't make the Church physical, earthly Israel.

Ezra and Nehemiah referred to the collective people that returned to Jerusalem Israel, as they were the only representatives of Israel at that time. They also called the Jews and Levites by their tribal names as well. It is interesting that sacrifices were made on behalf of the tribes that had gone into Assyrian captivity; the 'lost' tribes, as if they were present.

Today many true gentiles have been called. My point is that the early true church consisted of Israelites, those scattered remnants still in the region that Jesus, and the disciples, "was sent only to". Later those that had migrated into Europe and England were evangelized by the apostles.

You cannot separate Israel and the church. They are inseparable.

 

[Copperhead]

Well, no, I can't separate the Church from Israel. I don't need to. It is already done. And it still remains.....

Israel is the focus of the GT period. Hosea (Hosea 5:15 - Hosea 6-2) said that Yeshua would return to His place until BOTH Judah and Israel collectively realized their offense of rejecting Yeshua and called for His return. Yeshua Himself affirmed that in Matthew 23:39. And this would be during Israel/Judah's affliction which I believe is a reference to what Jeremiah 30:7 is talking about. Jeremiah uses the name Jacob from which all the tribes descended from. The Church has nothing to do with it. By definition the Church did not commit an offense that caused Yeshua to return to His place. The Church had not begun yet the Yeshua went away. But corporate Israel and Judah did commit the offense. So there has to be a physical Hebrew people to bring forth the Messiah.

And Paul is quite clear that the promises, the covenants, the service to God, etc, etc still belong to his brethren in the flesh, physical Jacob/Israel.

So the Church and Israel/Judah are two distinct and separate identities.

 

[bbbbbbb]

So the Church and Israel/Judah are two distinct and separate identities.

Absolutely.

 

[KingdomLeast]

There is Fleshly Israel (Jews) and there is Spiritual Israel (Christians). God deals with both differently.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

There is Fleshly Israel (Jews) and there is Spiritual Israel (Christians). God deals with both differently.

The question remains. Did Jesus and the disciples actually do what they were sent to do: minister to the 'lost' peoples of the Northern Kingdom? If so then most of the church is comprised of latter day Israelites (except the Jews of course).

 

[Copperhead]

The question remains. Did Jesus and the disciples actually do what they were sent to do: minister to the 'lost' peoples of the Northern Kingdom? If so then most of the church is comprised of latter day Israelites (except the Jews of course).

I am not convinced it was that narrow of focus.... the northern kingdom. Israel is the name given to Jacob by the Lord. Jacob encompasses the entire 12 tribes. While it might be assumed that "to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" meant the northern tribes specifically, there is nothing in the context to support that narrow of an assumption. All the sheep of all the tribes, without the Messiah, were and are lost spiritually, and likewise, they are all technically "Israel", being descended from Jacob (Israel). It could very well mean the whole package of all the tribes that Yeshua was referring to.

Especially in light of the fact that many of the northern tribes had migrated south and joined with the southern tribes prior to the Babylonian exile (see 2 Chronicles). The northern tribes were never "lost". Commingled with the southern tribes, yes. And Ezra and Nehemiah both used Judah and Israel interchangeably when referring to the returning remnant that each of them led back to the land from Babylon.

Regarding who Yeshua was referring to when He stated "to the lost sheep of the house of Israel", as meaning only the northern tribes...a thought from my science days in college comes to mind...."Best not to make vast assumptions on half vast data". Don't say that out loud too quickly.

Now, of those of all the tribes that remained in Babylon, that could very well be the source of European Jewry. After all, the primary Talmud in use by European Jews was and is the Babylonian Talmud, not the Jerusalem Talmud. So again, it is a stretch to assume that the Jews who migrated to Europe were from the Northern Kingdom specifically. Archeology records show that Sargon of Assyria only relocated about 26,000 of the Northern Kingdom out of the estimated 400,000 Hebrews there.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I am not convinced it was that narrow of focus.... the northern kingdom. Israel is the name given to Jacob by the Lord. Jacob encompasses the entire 12 tribes. While it might be assumed that "to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" meant the northern tribes specifically, there is nothing in the context to support that narrow of an assumption. All the sheep of all the tribes, without the Messiah, were and are lost spiritually, and likewise, they are all technically "Israel", being descended from Jacob (Israel). It could very well mean the whole package of all the tribes that Yeshua was referring to.

The "house of Israel" means the tribes of the northern kingdom specifically whenever used. James addressed them in his epistle.

Archeology records show that Sargon of Assyria only relocated about 26,000 of the Northern Kingdom out of the estimated 400,000 Hebrews there.

This makes the point. The poor of the land were usually left on the land. It was the leaders and notables that were taken prisoner after the military had been defeated. It is these 'poor' that are referred to in Isaiah 9:1 (read full context) and Matthew 4:14-16.

 

[Dave L]

The "house of Israel" means the northern kingdom specifically whenever used.



This makes the point. The poor of the land were usually left on the land. It was the leaders and notables that were taken prisoner after the military had been defeated. It is these 'poor' that are referred to in Isaiah 9:1 (read full context) and Matthew 4:14-16.

We must remember that God broke off the unbelievers from Israel under the New Covenant. So all of the promises and prophecies find fulfillment in Christ (Israel). Either now on earth and in heaven. Or after Israel's restoration on the last day in the resurrection. And then in the new Heavens and Earth.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

We must remember that God broke off the unbelievers from Israel under the New Covenant. So all of the promises and prophecies find fulfillment in Christ (Israel). Either now on earth and in heaven. Or after Israel's restoration on the last day in the resurrection. And then in the new Heavens and Earth.

True, but it is the Jews that were "broken off", Christ then turning his attention to the other tribes, termed "gentiles" throughout the new testament.