okay,I'll try to explain what I meant better,but it's okay that we disagree.I want you to know I respect your beliefs.I was just trying to share my opinion,not trying to argue with you in anyway and if I've offended you somehow,I'm really sorry,I didn't mean to.i'm sorry i'm not being clear enough.maybe someone else can answer your questions better,but I'll do the best I can to explain what I meant.
Don't worry, you haven't offended me in any way at all. This is the way I debate online. Point-by-point breakdown of the other person's argument.
If it helps, you can think of me sipping a cup of tea and playing classical music on my iPod speakers while I reply to you. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I am angry, it simply means that I want to see you defend your point. I've never seen a Christian adequately defend their faith.
what I was trying to get across with the bible verses is that not everyone who says they are a christian or identifies as being a christian in america(you say the numbers are 76%to 80%,and I believe you)
You really shouldn't believe me. After all, I'm arguing against you, and I'm making an assertion. It's good practice to check out that assertion instead of believing or disbelieving it. A simple Google search will turn up pretty much anything you want to know.
Also, if you can't understand anything I'm saying, perhaps a word or phrase you haven't heard before, Google it. I love Google, it's brilliant. Knowledge and statistics at my fingertips. And you can believe with certainty anything Wikipedia says, because they have high quality standards and require sources to be cited, which you can check out.
is really a christian.(again,this is my opinion)I think because our country was founded by a majority of people with christian beliefs,it's become just a label for some people,they were raised being told they were christian or going to church on sunday,but they don't actually believe in God or live for God and have a relationship with Him,people view Him like santa or the easter bunny almost in some places,and the world has become so corrupt.America isn't exempt from that just because the founding fathers and first people were christians.I like how another poster put it a few pages back:
"We tend to generalize when referring to christians. I've read a lot about the church and all the christians. It's hard not to turn atheist if you look at other christians. Too many "pretenders" have used the church and Jesus' name to manipulate. I can give a single example: the catholic church murdered off a lot of people from other faiths during medieval times. (Including Spain's inquisition)"
Hmm, so you're saying some people who claim they're Christian aren't really? Then why would they attack the real Christians for their faith? It makes no sense to me.
Also, about 40% of America are young Earth creationists. You have to believe firmly in God if you're willing to dismiss so much evidence on such a grand scale. I doubt any of these will persecute you for your faith.
I think the only way to identify a true christian is by how they live and if they strive to live like Jesus did,and if they believe in the bible and the Trinity and that Jesus died for our sins,not based on what they say.
Hmm, believe in the bible, you say? Do you partake in animal sacrifices? God demands them (and you also have to give the leftovers to the priests).
How about 1 Samuel 15:3, where God orders Saul to kill every Amalekite "man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."? Saul fails to kill everyone and everything, so God gives Saul's kingdom to David. Would you kill for God?
I would have "identified" myself as a christian and been part of that 80 percent when I was younger,but just because I said so didn't make it true,I didn't live for God and I hadn't accepted Christ into my heart. hence the bible verses about needing to have works and faith to truly be a christian,they go hand in hand.
Agreed. Just because someone makes an assertion doesn't make it true.
And you do need to have faith to be a Christian. Enough faith to deny the evidence and ignore the conspicuous lack of miracles nowadays from a God who was apparently performing them left, right and centre as little as 2,000 years ago.
I don't think that there has to be some outside force to have persecution occur,I think it can occur with people who claim to be "christian" but aren't,people from that 80%. In my opinion it's almost worse to have people who claim to be christians lead you astray than to have an obvious threat from an outside party because it's easier to be led astray by a source you think is trustworthy than one that obviously isn't,and I think it's worse to be mistreated by people from your own church family than by people who aren't.
Hold on. I think we're following different lines of thought. The way I understand it, persecution is a majority of people telling a minority of people with a common factor that they aren't equal and they're stupid etc. Racism is a form of persecution. This thread is about Christians being persecuted, for being Christian.
Maybe you think persecution involves them trying to persuade you to compromise your moral standards? Google "persecution definition".
I think it's starts when christians compromise our beliefs and go along with the world over the bible.
Uh, we go along with the real world because what we can see in the real world directly contradicts the bible. For example, the bible quotes insects as having four legs, even though anyone who can count can tell you they have six. Also, they class bats, which are mammals, as birds. These are just a few examples of where the bible is just plain wrong.
so slowly,people lose their morals and now we're in a mess and it makes it hard to live for God as a christian and follow the bible when some people who also claim to be christians don't follow it.
Wait, you think that people who follow the bible will lead brilliant lives, while disbelief in the bible leaves us in a mess? The bible advocates slavery. Do you have a slave? It also has loads of laws that are very unfair to women. For example, if a women is raped in a field and she cries out but isn't heard, the rapist has to pay her father 50 shekels of silver and marry her. Personally, I find that horrifying. It also tells you to kill your agnostic friend, cuz they don't believe in God. Having the bible as a moral code is a very bad idea.
It gives a bad example to people who aren't christians,they think we are all that way,that we are no different from anyone else.
But you are no different from anyone else. You're human, I'm human. Unless you think you hold a privileged position in God's eyes because you worship him. Please tell me that isn't the case.
I think that's why there is so much fighting amongst christians too,we are all very opinionated.
But this is what happened to me,I woke up one day and realized I was essentially a fraud-I wasn't living for God at all,and I didn't have any relationship with Him,even though I've called myself a christian my whole life.
Just out of interest, how does one have a relationship with God? When you talk, does he talk back? That's one of the fundamental building blocks of a relationship, two-way conversation. Does he perform miracles for you? Ask him to turn orange juice into Coke.
I also think it's harder to stand up for what you believe in to a friend than it is to a stranger,because we care what our friends and families think of us and we care if we lose them,or if they don't like us or mistreat us,I think it hurts more to have friend mistreat you or shun or judge you than a stranger.Basically,I think it depends on what your definition of persecution is.i guess my definition of persecution (in america,and everywhere else) is being mistreated in any way(not just physically)being mocked,or shunned,or even just losing people we love, because we stand up for the bible and don't just go along with the crowd that is going against God's word,which doesn't always have to be an an outside party,it can be your own family.
Ah, ok. Now I see your definition of persecution. Ignore what I wrote above (apart from my personal definition, that's important), I somehow missed this bit.
Your perception of persecution seems to be warped. It sounds like people around you are bashing the bible like I'm doing. There's nothing wrong with this. We all have the right to speak our minds, fortunately. They're not aiming anything at you (hopefully), they're just saying they think you're wrong. You can say you think they're wrong. If you lose an argument, don't feel discouraged. Don't try to play the martyr card and claim persecution, because that's just plain dishonest.
You should welcome these attacks on the bible. If your faith is the obvious truth you say it is, it should hold up pretty well to these attacks and any observer will see your faith has solid grounds. But if you get upset when people get their argumentative streak going, it seems like you know all is not right with your faith.
I think you have a lot of great questions,and are very intelligent,you remind of a good friend of mine who is agnostic actually,we've had a lot of debates like this.
Thank you. But my intelligence is partly natural, partly hard-earned. I've learned by examining many sources that conflict with each other, and trying to punch holes in them like I'm doing to your post. The ones that stand up to any criticism I can throw at them are the ones I accept as valid. I've found that scientific papers are particularly good at making sense, and they back up what they're saying with experiments (e.g. the photoelectric effect).
but would you consider going to a church and asking a pastor your questions? I think you would find much clearer answers there than on the website,or from me,even though I'm trying.
It's interesting how you refer me to a figure of authority. You obviously have good reasons for your beliefs, if you share those with me, won't I believe in Christianity as well? But you imply the pastor knows more than you. What is there to know, apart from memorising the bible? I'd argue that my understanding of the bible is better than a pastor's, and it's funny to watch them performing mental acrobatics in response to my questions.
But yeah, I've already gone to a pastor and talked to him. He didn't have much in the way of clear answers, but he did have
ad hominems (he attacked the fact I was 17), baseless assertions and just calling me a liar.
And how will I not find answers to my questions on this website? I'm asking them, aren't I? Surely people will respond with a carefully thought out, well-written answer?
I'm doing the best I can to answer you,but a pastor would probably have much clearer more thorough answers.
Trust me, you're doing a lot better than some of the creationists and pastors I've seen debate. No arguments from incredulity, no
ad hominems and no misrepresentation of science. You might have set the standard. But no, your answers aren't very clear. Try using bullet points. It's what I do to get full UMS in all my exams.
- What you are going to state
- What evidence supports your point
- Possibly some evidence or opinions that disagree
- If applicable, how the evidence led you to your belief
