Are Christian seminaries necessary?

[dcyates]

I believe my teacher is well aware of what you are saying. Now I am also sure he takes everything into consideration when he shares with me.

Well, wasn't your teacher sharing with you when I asked you what the biblical text in Hebrew meant?

By the way when did the church start sending people to the seminary to become ministers?

The Church started sending their leaders for formal training almost as soon as the Christian Church was legalized by Emperors Constantine and Licinius in AD 313. Our seminaries and divinity schools are derived from the universities, which were themselves derived from the cathedral schools, which were themselves derived from the bishops' schools, which were formed very early and especially sprouted after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire during the reign of Emperor Theodosius (AD 381 - 395).

On top of that, most of the early Church fathers and apologists were among the most educated men of their times.

What do you think happened all the years before that? Also from what I read about St. Francis of Assisi, he was very apposed to men being sent to seminaries.

Okay. I honestly don't intend for this to seem rude but, so what?

 

[Assisi]

The Church started sending their leaders for formal training almost as soon as the Christian Church was legalized by Emperors Constantine and Licinius in AD 313. Our seminaries and divinity schools are derived from the universities, which were themselves derived from the cathedral schools, which were themselves derived from the bishops' schools, which were formed very early and especially sprouted after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire during the reign of Emperor Theodosius (AD 381 - 395).

Weren't the very early fathers taught by the Apostles themselves?? Isn't that the same as seminary?
edit: I'm not disagreeing with you

 

[Fireinfolding]

But at the same time, Fireinfolding, I doubt there's a medical school in existence that hasn't produced a bad doctor at one time or another, yet I'd be willing to wager you would still want the physician you were seeing to have graduated from medical school. Right?

Missed you back there.

Nah, those who know me well know I'm not into physicians They cost too much and yeild bad results (in my experience anyways).

Not sure if these graduated or not but they sure cost her everything she had lol

I relate to this woman...


Mark 5:25 And had suffered many things of many physicians, andhad spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,


You should know THE STORY



I think she had a JOB MOMENT

Job 13:4 But ye are forgers of lies, ye are all physicians of no value.



I LOVE THIS PART!!

Luke 8:44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.


It is HIM who is THE GREAT PHYSICIAN

He GRADUATED with a DEGREE of PERFECT

He's got great rates too


Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Fireinfolding]

It is so sad that one can’t see the difference between learning physical and spiritual knowledge. (1 Corinthians 2:13-14) “Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. An unspiritual person is one who does not accept anything of the Spirit of God he sees it all as nonsense; it is beyond his understanding because it can only be understood by means of the Spirit.”

Amen Giver

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[ParsonJefferson]

I personally think that; not only are seminaries not necessary, but are in most cases dangerous to a person’s spiritual health.

I'd have to say that YES, seminaries ARE helpful, beneficial and good!

Does this mean that you can only preach, teach and/or minister AFTER you've gone to Seminary? No.

But chances are, you'll have a MUCH better grasp of Scripture, and will be more able to "rightly divide the Word of Truth" if you've studied it meticulously.


In addition, there are so many various demands placed on pastors any more - everything from marriage counseling to teaching children - that specialized training and education is probably more necessary than ever!


This is NOT to say anything derogatory about non-seminary-educated preachers and teachers. It's just a recognition of the fact that Seminaries are (or at least can be) very, very helpful to the Kingdom of God!

 

[Giver]

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Well, wasn't your teacher sharing with you when I asked you what the biblical text in Hebrew meant?
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Believe me if my teacher wanted me to know I would know. He must think it is unnecessary for me to have that knowledge.

The Church started sending their leaders for formal training almost as soon as the Christian Church was legalized by Emperors Constantine and Licinius in AD 313. Our seminaries and divinity schools are derived from the universities, which were themselves derived from the cathedral schools, which were themselves derived from the bishops' schools, which were formed very early and especially sprouted after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire during the reign of Emperor Theodosius (AD 381 - 395).In my opinion most of what is wrong in the church today is because of Constantine, so yes what he started would also be wrong, in my opinion.

On top of that, most of the early Church fathers and apologists were among the most educated men of their times.
Well, I believe that most of the first Apostles were not educated men, and I don’t think a person needs to go to a seminary to be educated.

Okay. I honestly don't intend for this to seem rude but, so what?

I brought up St Francis Just to give some Catholics something to think about.

 

[TamiinKS]

Ah who needs schoolin'?

Let's get rid of all of 'em! We jus need the Holy Spirit. We don't need no readin' and ritin' and cypherin' an stuff!

 

[Markea]

I personally think that; not only are seminaries not necessary, but are in most cases dangerous to a person’s spiritual health.

After a person has been brought to accept Jesus as their Lord and savior, by the Christians preachers, teachers, pastors, and have been given the Holy Spirit it is no longer necessary to be taught by man, right?

Did Paul go to a seminary? Did man teach Paul? Doesn’t every Christian have the same Holy Spirit given to them as Paul had given to him?

(John 10:16) “And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, and one shepherd.” (John 10:27) “The sheep that belong to me listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me.”

(John 16:13) “But when the Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth, since he will not be speaking as from himself but will say only what he has learnt; and he will tell you of the things to come.”

(1 Corinthians 1:19-21) “As scripture says: I shall destroy the wisdom of the wise and bring to nothing all the learning of the learned. Where are the philosophers now? Where are the scribes? Where are any of our thinkers today? Do you see now how God has shown up the foolishness of human wisdom? If it was God’s wisdom that human wisdom should not know God, it was because God wanted to save those who have faith through the foolishness of the message that we preach.”

(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ Who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But we are those who have the mind of Christ.”

I'll add a few cents worth..

The body of Christ is said to edify itself, in love.. and it is by the effectual measure which works in every part..

Not in some parts.. but in every part..

I personally believe that the 'one pastor' system (or clergy/laity system) is absolutely contrary to this scriptural principle of edification in love.

The scriptures declare that God has made us (those who are born again by His Spirit) able ministers of the new covenant.. and that there is an effective measure of His Spirit working in these parts..

To have one man or pastor lead an assembly is unbiblical in my estimation.. as we all have a part in the body.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

I brought up St Francis Just to give some Catholics something to think about.

Naughty, naughty!

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Ah who needs schoolin'?

Let's get rid of all of 'em! We jus need the Holy Spirit. We don't need no readin' and ritin' and cypherin' an stuff!

Cypherin? Is that some sort of pain reliever?

 

[icxn]

Hm....

We dont need no education.
We dont need no thought control.
No dark sarcasm in the classroom.
Teacher, leave those kids alone.
Hey, teacher, leave those kids alone!
All in all its just another brick in the wall.
All in all youre just another brick in the wall.
​

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Hm....

We dont need no education.
We dont need no thought control.
No dark sarcasm in the classroom.
Teacher, leave those kids alone.
Hey, teacher, leave those kids alone!
All in all its just another brick in the wall.
All in all youre just another brick in the wall.
​

Hey now - this is a "PINK FLOYD FREE FORUM"!

 

[sunlover1]

Hm....

We dont need no education.​

We dont need no thought control.​

No dark sarcasm in the classroom.​

Teacher, leave those kids alone.​

Hey, teacher, leave those kids alone!​

All in all its just another brick in the wall.​

All in all youre just another brick in the wall.​

​

Hey now - this is a "PINK FLOYD FREE FORUM"!

rofl.

How bout this one ICXN

We don't need no steenkeeng education.

 

[dimwhitt]

the problem is not the value of a good education - that is undeniable

the problem is the value of the education we get - that is often inadequate

but there are some great seminaries in the country
persoanlly i would be afraid to be a church member under a pastor with no education

the issues of the scripture are ancient and complex (simple enough to comprehend, but difficult enough to allude the wise)
they are not to be handled lightly

 

[Fireinfolding]

rofl.

How bout this one ICXN

We don't need no steenkeeng education.

Its called HOMESCHOOL

Theres a LACK of quality education

Peace

Firecritter

 

[Fireinfolding]

Cypherin? Is that some sort of pain reliever?

Hey Parsons What Chu doing round these parts?

Good to see yu

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[dcyates]

Hi dcyates

Hello Carlos.

May I suggest that rather than all those who are serious about relationship to God having to go to seminary to learn about things that are needful to know, that what the Church needs is men and women who will preach discipleship as Jesus preached it? And just as importantly live it.

This is done in seminaries. I've attended two different Bible colleges and three different seminaries and in each one there was always a strong emphasis on the vital importance of maintaining one's spiritual health and how all that we were learning was not to be simply head-knowledge but rather was to serve toward a stronger, more intimate relationship with God.

I can't say this with any appreciable degree of authority, of course, but to any of you who have stated on this thread that you don't think it's of any significance--or that it is even harmful--to go to seminary, I think it's pretty safe to say that this is only because you've never actually been to one.

The problem is not in the overall lack of knowledge but rather the overall lack of willingness to follow the Lord whatever the cost.

All due respect, Carlos, but how do you know that this is a prevalent problem among seminarians? I can honestly say that I don't know of a single one of my fellow students over the years who is lacking in their willingness to follow Christ, no matter the cost.

In point of fact, just by determining to go to seminary is a distinct act of faith and sacrifice. Most seminaries are private schools and are therefore far more expensive to attend--without the promise of a great paycheque waiting for you at the other end, I might add. I had to save, beg and borrow thousands and thousands of dollars in order to go to seminary. And I'm frankly offended by so many of you proclaiming that not only was it not worth that type of sacrifice, but that it was actually detrimental to the cause of the Christian faith. Not to put too fine a point on it, but you folks are speaking out of pure ignorance.

The churches are absolutely full of intellectual "Christians".

They are?!? If this is indeed the case then why would one of the most enduring bestsellers among Christian books be Mark Noll's "The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind"? (The scandal being that, by-and-large, evangelicals don't use much of their minds.) Why would widely-respected British evangelical John Stott have just published a book entitled "Your Mind Matters: The Place of the Mind in the Christian Life"? In it he urges Christians to start using their intellectual muscles more than they have as of late. Why would J.P. Moreland have written a book called "Love Your God with All Your Mind: The Role of Reason in the Life of the Soul"? In it he explains how the mind plays an important role in Christianity, and that unfortunately, many of us leave our minds behind when it comes to our faith. He presents a logical case for the role of the mind in spiritual growth, development, and transformation. He challenges us to develop our minds and to use our intellect to further God's kingdom through evangelism, apologetics, worship, and vocation.

As I mentioned in my previous post, all the early Church fathers were not only spiritually devout and dedicated to Christ to the point of arrest, imprisonment and martyrdom, but were also among the most highly educated and gifted intellects of their respective times. And it was in no small part due to the intellectual force of their writings that the Christian movement, although frequently persecuted, eventually carried the day and conquered an empire.

That is, people who give lip service to Jesus Christ but whose faith is little more than an intellectual acknowledgement of certain things as being true. Few follow Christ. Most follow the particular church they are attending.

Again, no disrespect Carlos, but how do you know these things? Are you able to see into hearts and souls and so authoritatively make these judgments concerning the genuineness and sincerity of the spirituality of others? My brother, the Bible strenuously warns us against making such pronouncements.

If the teaching that should be happening is not happening we must ask ourselves why not? And having prayerfully and with willing hearts sought the Lord for an answer we must set out to fix what is wrong in the church rather than continue to rely on a para-church institution like a seminary to make up for any lack in the church.

I'm sorry, my friend, but this is simply unrealistic. Should we honestly expect each believer to learn ancient Hebrew, Chaldean and Koine Greek, so as to translate the Scriptures from their original languages? Should we actually expect all Church members to study the socio-cultural milieu of the eastern Mediterranean world, spanning roughly from 2000 BC to AD 100, in order to better interpret and understand the Bible? Do we really require each and every Christian to study the issues and difficulties of communicating the Bible's message in inter-cultural contexts the way missionaries need to at seminary?

The best teaching that I can think of is that which happens when the teacher is connected to the learner (disciple) by an intimate and daily relationship which models what is taught. Just as Jesus did with his disciples.

Not everybody is called to be a doctor, which requires special training. Not everybody is called to be an schoolteacher, which requires special training. Not everybody is called to be an electrical engineer, which calls for special training. Not everybody is called to be a pastor, which requires special training. Not everybody is called to be a missionary, which requires special training. And not everybody is called to be a Bible scholar, which also requires special training.

To be a doctor, you need to go to medical school. To be a schoolteacher, you need to go to university. To be an electrical engineer, you need to go to a technical school. Whereas to be a pastor or missionary, you need to go to a Bible college. And in order to be a biblical scholar, you need to go to seminary.

We need to get back to this model of teaching and get away from that which we tend to have today where those doing the teaching have almost no relationship, if any at all, with those being taught.

I naturally can't tell you what to do, Carlos, but if you've found this to be the case, maybe you're going to the wrong church and need to find a new one. Because I, quite honestly, have not found this to be so. I'm sure this does happen--I'm not saying it doesn't--but I certainly haven't found it to be the norm.

Today we do not teach character. We teach head knowledge. Head knowledge by itself means absolutely nothing in the Kingdom of God if it does not result in the one having that head knowledge becoming more godly in character. More benevolent toward his fellow man. More reliant through that knowledge on the God of all wisdom. And more able through that knowledge to more appropriately love and serve others as God would do in our place.

Yes, it's true that "head knowledge" concerning the Bible and biblical theology should result in better character. But in the end, all any school can do is strongly encourage this within its students. After that, it's up to the students. If what the school has taught does not result in better character, it's not really the fault of the school.

Carlos

Thank you, Carlos.

 

[dcyates]

Weren't the very early fathers taught by the Apostles themselves?? Isn't that the same as seminary?

The earliest Christians and Christian missionaries would have been taught by the apostles themselves. Early Church fathers like Clement of Rome (possibly mentioned in Philippians 4.3) may very well have had direct contact with the original apostles, or Papias who was thought to have been an actual acquaintance of the apostle John, and Polycarp who was himself a disciple of John. But the early Church fathers who I'm referring to--like Ignatius of Antioch, Quadratus of Athens, Justin Martyr, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, Melito of Sardis, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian or Origen--would have been taught by the original apostles, but were thought to have been highly educated and so were accorded a certain degree of respect.

edit: I'm not disagreeing with you

I appreciate that. Thanks, Assisi.

PS: "Assisi. Not a sissy." Hilarious.

 

[TamiinKS]

dycates, I simply can't agree enough with your last two posts and multiple smilies seem a bit juvenile.

Amen, amen and AMEN!

 

[dcyates]

Missed you back there.

LOL. No problem. Only God knows just how much I miss on a daily basis.

Nah, those who know me well know I'm not into physicians. They cost too much and yeild bad results (in my experience anyways).

Well, luckily I've had good physicians. I'm not trying to garner sympathy or anything like that, but I suffer from a chronic headache that I've had non-stop for over 11 and a half years now. I rely on medical doctors.

But at the same time, if I undestand you correctly, I also know the benefits to be had from alternative therapies, too.

Not sure if these graduated or not but they sure cost her everything she had lol

I relate to this woman...
Mark 5:25 And had suffered many things of many physicians, andhad spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,

You should know THE STORY.
I think she had a JOB MOMENT.
Job 13:4 But ye are forgers of lies, ye are all physicians of no value.

I LOVE THIS PART!!
Luke 8:44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.

It is HIM who is THE GREAT PHYSICIAN

He GRADUATED with a DEGREE of PERFECT

He's got great rates too

Yeah. Thankfully she had access to the Lord himself.
And thankfully for me, medical science has advanced considerably since the 1st-century--where in the situation of a chronic headache, they probably would have employed the practice of trepanning; that is, drilling holes in my head. Goodness knows I've been sorely tempted on occasion to do exactly that to myself.

Peace
Fireinfolding

And peace to you, too, Fireinfolding.