Archbishop Elpidophoros of America at Black Lives Matter Demonstration

[rusmeister]

Just to clarify: there are many people who don't agree that everyone's life matters. But I assume you meant in an Orthodox Christian context.

Yes, I do mean here in particular, though most people would affirm it if asked. I assume the best intentions from everyone here in TAW.

 

[Nick T]

I'm not sure I follow the logic that its wrong to march for Black Lives simply because of the questionable associations of some within the movement. The slogan "Black Lives Matter" is used far more broadly than the "official" organisation and the protests, the vast majority of whose participants are not in any way affiliated with any organised group, are centred solely on the question of racism and police brutality.

March for Life rubs shoulders with all sorts of religious and political groups, many antithetical to Christian teaching from Mormons to pro-war politicians, but since they're marching on one important issue it doesn't matter what they do the rest of the time. If protesters are marching for laudable things like opposing police brutality and racist discrimination why does it concern the Archbishop what they are doing elsewhere?

Wasn't MLK himself criticised for associations with communist and leftist groups in his lifetime? But that didn't make Archbishop Iakovos wrong to march with him.

 

[gzt]

I'm not sure I follow the logic that its wrong to march for Black Lives simply because of the questionable associations of some within the movement. The slogan "Black Lives Matter" is used far more broadly than the "official" organisation and the protests, the vast majority of whose participants are not in any way affiliated with any organised group, are centred solely on the question of racism and police brutality.

This is precisely correct. It is so trivially obvious it would make me question the good faith of those you argue against but ideology is a heck of a drug.

Wasn't MLK himself criticised for associations with communist and leftist groups in his lifetime? But that didn't make Archbishop Iakovos wrong to march with him.

The entire civil rights movement was accused of being a communist plot, yes. In fact, in some conspiratorial circles you sometimes run into among Orthodox, any talk of racism is still dismissed as Marxist nonsense.

 

[gzt]

that was my main issue with the movement. if they are really for saving black lives, why don't you ever see protests against abortion clinics (even with videos of Planned Parenthood taking money to abort minority babies to counter affirmative action), or protesting gang violence, or protesting when white thugs kill black cops?

Oh, so you don't know anything at all about them, cool cool cool. Keep talking, then. But, yes, you're right about one of those, they aren't typically associated with advocating against abortion. Silly whataboutism.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Oh, so you don't know anything at all about them, cool cool cool. Keep talking, then. But, yes, you're right about one of those, they aren't typically associated with advocating against abortion. Silly whataboutism.

if you have any images of mass BLM protests against gang violence or when black cops are killed by whites, I will happily rescind the comment.

and it's not that they advocate against abortion, they are for it. which is the number 1 killer of innocent African American life in this country.

 

[AMM]

March for Life rubs shoulders with all sorts of religious and political groups, many antithetical to Christian teaching from Mormons to pro-war politicians, but since they're marching on one important issue it doesn't matter what they do the rest of the time. If protesters are marching for laudable things like opposing police brutality and racist discrimination why does it concern the Archbishop what they are doing elsewhere?

yeah, I had this thought too. The March For Life has plenty of people from the LGBT movement there, plenty of people from different religious backgrounds (and not just denominations of Christianity, but atheists, agnostics, buddhists, muslims), different political views, different economic views, different views on war, different views on international intervention, etc.

We don't agree with everyone there, even on morality and ethics. Like I said, I've seen a number of people there who had signs like "LGBT for Life" "Queer for Life" "Feminists for Life" etc. But that doesn't mean we're endorsing their messages and beliefs, just that we are united around a common cause of abortion.

 

[ArmyMatt]

March for Life rubs shoulders with all sorts of religious and political groups, many antithetical to Christian teaching from Mormons to pro-war politicians, but since they're marching on one important issue it doesn't matter what they do the rest of the time. If protesters are marching for laudable things like opposing police brutality and racist discrimination why does it concern the Archbishop what they are doing elsewhere?

if, at the March for Life, Metropolitan Tikhon held up an NRA poster, then I would equally cringe. the issue is not who a cleric is marching with, but rather by holding up a BLM sign, it can appear as an endorsement of something we shouldn't be endorsing.

 

[gzt]

Police death of this kind is kind of rare so bringing it up is a bit of a canard, but people involved with BLM or who care about the BLM are in my experience highly likely to be involved in anti-gang-violence initiatives. The converse is even more true. However, protests aren't really the kind of thing for that because those tend to be directed at state power - when they are, they are directed at reforming police responses and tie in directly with BLM.

 

[AMM]

if, at the March for Life, Metropolitan Tikhon held up an NRA poster, then I would equally cringe. the issue is not who a cleric is marching with, but rather by holding up a BLM sign, it can appear as an endorsement of something we shouldn't be endorsing.

so if he hadn't held a sign from the BLM organization, it would have been fine? Or if he just held a sign that said "black lives matter" but wasn't an "official" BLM Organization sign?

 

[AMM]

Police death of this kind is kind of rare so bringing it up is a bit of a canard, but people involved with BLM or who care about the BLM are in my experience highly likely to be involved in anti-gang-violence initiatives. The converse is even more true. However, protests aren't really the kind of thing for that because those tend to be directed at state power - when they are, they are directed at reforming police responses and tie in directly with BLM.

true, the point of a protest is always directed at the state power. Otherwise, you're just talking to your friends (or non-friends, as the case may be).

 

[ArmyMatt]

so if he hadn't held a sign from the BLM organization, it would have been fine? Or if he just held a sign that said "black lives matter" but wasn't an "official" BLM Organization sign?

for me personally, yes. if he was marching against racial injustice, and he marches next to an imam, Senator Sanders, and Ted Nugent, whatever. more power to them all.

but to appear to endorse a movement which is openly anti-Christian, that's an issue.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Police death of this kind is kind of rare so bringing it up is a bit of a canard, but people involved with BLM or who care about the BLM are in my experience highly likely to be involved in anti-gang-violence initiatives. The converse is even more true. However, protests aren't really the kind of thing for that because those tend to be directed at state power - when they are, they are directed at reforming police responses and tie in directly with BLM.

except I didn't ask about what individuals do personally, but what the organization does. abortion exists because of state power, why endorse abortion which is the number 1 killer of African Americans in this country?

 

[gzt]

except I didn't ask about what individuals do personally, but what the organization does. abortion exists because of state power, why endorse abortion which is the number 1 killer of African Americans in this country?

There is a BLM organization but "BLM" is a general movement and a broad slogan people organize under - a confusion which has already been discussed on this thread.

 

[Platina]

It would be super hard to organize under a different slogan in order to not be associated with the organization. It would be reeeeally super hard.

 

[gzt]

I wouldn't underestimate your ability to refuse to get it even then.

 

[Platina]

Of course, what hapepned to Breonna Taylor and George Floyd is terribe and inexcusable. Their memories deserve better.

 

[rakovsky]

Police abuse and discrimination against Black Americans are real problems in America. It is good that people are exercising their right to assemble to oppose the problems.

The closure of churches is also a problem. This is because at first the virus sounded very deadly, since there were rumors of millions of casualties in China. But the virus turned out to be comparable to the other outbreaks since WW1 that did not require such harsh measures. Second, church sacraments are a source of healing. Third, they could have kept church services going within a good safety regiment, like meeting outside or keeping people standing apart, instead of closing services altogether.

And fourth, all the Orthodox churches within 2 1/2 hours' drive from me are either still closed or allow only a limited, preregistered attendance that amount to about half or less of their regular attendance.

In the photo, Abp. Elpidophoros, probably the hierarch in the US most directly responsible for closing the services is standing right next to people in a crowd. It's pretty hard to justify this contradiction. If you want to make the argument that going to church is not as important as going to marches against police brutality right now because right now we have to deal with some high profile brutality cases, your response would be reasonable depending on who you are. If you are the head of GOARCH, this response does not seem very reasonable because your most direct responsibility is organizing church services and church life. It's very upsetting. People need to go to church to deal with problems in their lives, including police brutality and suffering from discrimination and abuse in society. How can you shut down or severely restrictive church services when you go and make a show against police abuse by doing the very thing that you ban for your parishioners - standing next to other people in crowds?

A more extreme example happened in Greece, when the same time that Greek officials were closing church services they were also attending concerts with crowds of people. At least in the case of Abp. Elpidophoros, he can make the argument that he was breaking the anti-virus rules in order to protest brutality, not just listen to concert music.

 

[ArmyMatt]

There is a BLM organization but "BLM" is a general movement and a broad slogan people organize under - a confusion which has already been discussed on this thread.

that's just an assertion. again, if you can actually show any evidence that shows the BLM movement and organization are distinct things, I would love to see it.

 

[AMM]

for me personally, yes. if he was marching against racial injustice, and he marches next to an imam, Senator Sanders, and Ted Nugent, whatever. more power to them all.

but to appear to endorse a movement which is openly anti-Christian, that's an issue.

gotcha, that makes sense. I do think that the movement and the organization are distinct, but I can understand how it would be an issue if he said, "I support the group and all that they stand for" since their "what we believe" page is very clear that they are also pro-LGBT. (I don't see anything on that page about abortion)

 

[Lukaris]

I hate to say it but I think when all is said and done, the only legacy after all of this violence will be more socially & economically shattered communities. We need our economic manufacturing base revived to some degree because it is on that basis communities have social stability. When that is lost, the result is places like Gary, Indiana.