Arab World's Response to Beheading!

[Larry]

Hi, Rahma.

Glad to see you back.

So, what is your own personal and heartfelt response to what was done to Berg?

 

[Starscream]

No, I think Muhammad's examples of torturing, mutilating and murdering his so-called enemies reflects on Islam as a whole. Its such incidents that inspire these terrorists.

Interesting. What about the attrocities to be found in the Holy Bible, by the hands of Biblical icons such as Moses and Noah and God himself?

Your brother, your mother' s son, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your friend who is as your own soul, might tempt you in secret. They might say, ' Let us go and worship other gods' (whom you and your fathers have not known. 7They might be gods of the nations who are around you, near you, or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other). 8Do not agree with him or listen to him. Do not look on him with pity. And do not show him loving-kindness or hide him. 9You must kill him. Your hand should be first against him to put him to death, and then the hand of all the people. 10Kill him with stones, because he has tried to turn you away from the Lord your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the land where you were servants.

Pretty nasty, huh?

I realize you have apologetics to deal with this, but then again, Muslims have apolgetics to deal with any criticism you throw their way as well, right?

You may choose to ignore this, but I often think people who so quickly criticize other religions would find their own faiths fail to stand up to the same litmus tests that they apply to others. I think the Golden Rule is a great tool for clearing this up.

 

[rahma]

From Islamonline.net. ....and the hadiths of Al-Bukhari.

Still think this is "my propoganda?"

Care to quote them? Islamic scholarship requires expertise in 40 area. Can you even name those 40 areas, let alone claim to be a master in them. Insta scholar syndrome. Bring the hadith, find someone who is knowledgable to interpret them and then we'll see. Islamonline.net is saudi funded and not accepted by most muslims.

He allowed lying in three cases, one of which was to appease one's wife (bet that was popular among the women), lying to make peace, and lying to your enemy.

Lying to your enemy to make peace.

Incorrecto. Take it up with the Islamic scholars who do endorse a 'no rules' war on Christians.

I have never heard anyone like that. You must dig up some pretty obscure people.

 

[rahma]

Hi, Rahma.

Glad to see you back.

So, what is your own personal and heartfelt response to what was done to Berg?

Made me sick, like lots of things recently. What did you expect? But then again, having someone personally blame me for that and shout nasty words at me today as I was walking home from a final made me sick too. I wish people would stop telling me to "go home." Central wisconsin isn't any fun.

 

[Starscream]

Made me sick, like lots of things recently. What did you expect? But then again, having someone personally blame me for that and shout nasty words at me today as I was walking home from a final made me sick too. I wish people would stop telling me to "go home." Central wisconsin isn't any fun.

Sorry to hear about that.

Unless the person who told you to "go home" was a Native American then I don't think they have much of a right to talk.

 

[jameseb]

Care to quote them? Islamic scholarship requires expertise in 40 area. Can you even name those 40 areas, let alone claim to be a master in them. Insta scholar syndrome. Bring the hadith, find someone who is knowledgable to interpret them and then we'll see. Islamonline.net is saudi funded and not accepted by most muslims.

First, there is no to get an attitude with me. I never claimed to be a master of it, as I'm sure you're not since you are not a Islamic scholar but a European American convert to Islam. You seem to imply that only a Muslim can comment on these issues, but regardless, I feel I am as able to speak on the subject as you have on Christianity.

Not "accepted by most Muslims?" Can you prove that? Do you have evidence of this? Are you an Islamic scholar?

I have never heard anyone like that. You must dig up some pretty obscure people.

Sorry, but Islamonline.net is not some obscure site.

 

[Larry]

Made me sick, like lots of things recently. What did you expect? But then again, having someone personally blame me for that and shout nasty words at me today as I was walking home from a final made me sick too. I wish people would stop telling me to "go home." Central wisconsin isn't any fun.

I understand.

In your opinion, are the men that did this in some kind of a cult? Does your religion ostracize such people? Are there any Islamic ramifications forthcoming? Just how do Muslims deal with people who commit such atrocities in the name of Allah?

 

[rahma]

First, there is no need for you to cop an attitude with me.

If someone slanders my prophet, I'll defend it. No attitudes being coped

I never claimed to be a master of it, as I'm sure you're not since you are not a Islamic scholar but a European American convert to Islam. You seem to imply that only a Muslim can comment on these issues, but sorry, I can and I will.

I'm implying you have a certain agenda behind your comments, and that you don't take time to look and examine the issues, only look to find what makes Islam seem bad.

I'm not a scholar, but I study with scholars, and will inshaAllah one day be a scholar. I can almost bet I know more on the subject then you, just as I am sure you know more about orthodox christianity then me.

Not "accepted by most Muslims?" Can you prove that? Do you have evidence of this? Are you an Islamic scholar?

The site is salafi and doesn't follow the 4 major sunni madhabs. The majority of muslims follow one of the 4 major madhabs and not the salafi school of thought. Thus, the rulings at islamonline are not accepted by most muslims.

LOL, Yes, Islamonline.net is a very obscure site... riiiight.

They have some pretty far out scholars who wouldn't get anywhere if they didn't have a computer and internet connections.

 

[rahma]

I understand.

In your opinion, are the men that did this in some kind of a cult? Does your religion ostracize such people? Are there any Islamic ramifications forthcoming? Just how do Muslims deal with people who commit such atrocities in the name of Allah?

I believe people who commit these acts do so when they fail to follow Islam completely and totally. It's the problem when someone picks and chooses rather then looks at something in it's entirety. When that happens, the evil part of human nature comes out and exploits parts of a religious tradition.

Islamically, if a person murders, he is put to death. Killing a captive is murder, plain and simple. Harming a person who is tied up or incapacitated is murder.

How do we deal with it? Well, prayer for one. Additionally, there is a hadith that says when we see a Muslim doing something wrong, we must do everything in our power to correct them.

 

[jameseb]

If someone slanders my prophet, I'll defend it. No attitudes being coped

Really?


"Islamic scholarship requires expertise in 40 area. Can you even name those 40 areas, let alone claim to be a master in them. Insta scholar syndrome."

Now if you feel its 'slander' for me to suggest Islam is a false teaching, you go right ahead. I don't agree with it, and I think Muhammad set a fine example of hate and murder that terrorists today use as an excuse for their heinous acts. I already pointed out to you before how Muhammad had people murdered once he conquered Mecca... remember the girl that made fun of him with verse?

I'm implying you have a certain agenda behind your comments, and that you don't take time to look and examine the issues, only look to find what makes Islam seem bad.

Agenda? I don't know... maybe its because I'm a Christian then. I did take the time, I did look at the issue and I made my comments based on just that.

I'm not a scholar, but I study with scholars, and will inshaAllah one day be a scholar. I can almost bet I know more on the subject then you, just as I am sure you know more about orthodox christianity then me.

Yes, Rahma, I'm sure you do know more than me on Islam. Regardless, you are not a scholar and there are those scholars that support what people like bin Laden did ~ And they base it on their expertise with Islam. All the same, the hadiths I mentioned existed and I gave you the source.... go find it.

The site is salafi and doesn't follow the 4 major sunni madhabs.

Yes, I'm sure we all understood that... er...

They have some pretty far out scholars who wouldn't get anywhere if they didn't have a computer and internet connections.

You've completely ignored me.... I asked for proof that "most Muslims" don't adhere to that site.... especially since that site even promotes peaceful Islam. They just don't dodge the facts...

 

[Larry]

I believe people who commit these acts do so when they fail to follow Islam completely and totally. It's the problem when someone picks and chooses rather then looks at something in it's entirety. When that happens, the evil part of human nature comes out and exploits parts of a religious tradition.

Islamically, if a person murders, he is put to death. Killing a captive is murder, plain and simple. Harming a person who is tied up or incapacitated is murder.

How do we deal with it? Well, prayer for one. Additionally, there is a hadith that says when we see a Muslim doing something wrong, we must do everything in our power to correct them.

So, now that the deed has been done, (murder), if you follow Islam completely and totally, your feeling is that these men should be put to death. Is this correct?

 

[rahma]

So, now that the deed has been done, (murder), if you follow Islam completely and totally, your feeling is that these men should be put to death. Is this correct?

Bingo. But first, we need to establish Islamic courts, in which the man can be tried Islamically

 

[jameseb]

Actually the word ‘Islam’ is derived from the same root as that of ‘salaam’, which means ‘peace’. The very name of the religion - Islam - means submission to God’s will. This is which is the way to peace in this world and the next.

The All Merciful God wants all humans to live in peace. Therefore, His laws taught to mankind through his prophets teach us justice, mercy and love. That is true Islam; the religion of peace.

Islam teaches that we should respect all prophets and all religions. Indeed, Islam considers all the prophets of God as its own prophets; including Abraham, Moses and Jesus. All of them taught the same religion of God; it was after their time that differences crept in through misunderstandings and misinterpretations.

So these are extremist ideas not adhered to by the majority of Muslims, Rahma?

 

[Larry]

Bingo. But first, we need to establish Islamic courts, in which the man can be tried Islamically

All the legalistic scenarios aside, at what point did you feel these men should be put to death?

 

[rahma]

So these are extremist ideas not adhered to by the majority of Muslims, Rahma?

James James James, since you are orthodox, are you going to follow a protestant scholar for every single religious question? Most likely not. The same holds true for different madhabs of Islam. I do not go to salafi scholars for my knoweldge, especially since I know they have sketchy scholarship. But that does not mean that everything they say is unislamic. Just the things that disagree with every other single madhab (like tortue and no rules of war).

 

[rahma]

All the legalistic scenarios aside, at what point did you feel these men should be put to death?

With this evidence, they are beyond a doubt guilty, so after a quick trial, it would be carried out quickly and in public.

 

[Larry]

With this evidence, they are beyond a doubt guilty, so after a quick trial, it would be carried out quickly and in public.

I was asking about your own personal and gut feelings on the issue of putting them to death.

 

[rahma]

I was asking about your own personal and gut feelings on the issue of putting them to death.

I have no problem with the death penalty, and believe that people who commit certain crimes (in Islam, murder and rape) should be put to death. That would include these people, as well as any US prison guards who killed or raped prisoners in their custody.

He who killed a human being without the latter being guilty of killing another or of spreading disorder in the land should be looked upon as if he killed all of mankind. (5:32)

I'll also add that the family of the victim has the final authority about the punishment. If the family so decides, the person can be spared death and be imprisoned instead. This forgiveness is sadaqa, charity.

 

[jameseb]

James James James, since you are orthodox, are you going to follow a protestant scholar for every single religious question? Most likely not. The same holds true for different madhabs of Islam. I do not go to salafi scholars for my knoweldge, especially since I know they have sketchy scholarship. But that does not mean that everything they say is unislamic. Just the things that disagree with every other single madhab (like tortue and no rules of war).

That was just one source, rahma. Just one. I assume then that you do not believe in the hadiths of Al-Bukhari then?

 

[rahma]

That was just one source, rahma. Just one. I assume then that you do not believe in the hadiths of Al-Bukhari then?

I accept most of them, but I know to fully understand hadith, one must consider many other things.