Approaches to Eschatology

[BABerean2]

Why must I constantly point this out to you?

Maybe it is because what you say does not always match up with what God says.

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

.

 

[BABerean2]

The claim that John Darby "invented" Dispensationalism is indeed widespread. But it has been thoroughly debunked. The two most significant publications debunking this are:

"Dispensationalism Before Darby," by William C. Watson, published in 2015.
ISBN#978-1-942614-03-6

and:

"Ancient Dispensational Truth," by James C. Morris (me), published in 2018.
ISBN # 978-1-945774-29-4

Watson's book quotes many examples of dispensational doctrine published during the 1600s and 1700s, with a few examples from the 1500s.

My book quotes many examples of dispensational doctrine to be found in the very oldest surviving Christian commentaries on eschatology, and which continued to be taught at least up to the fifth century.

Both of these books were written in a desperate attempt to hide the true source of the doctrine, which is found below.

How many of the earlier sources provided in these books claimed that modern Jews would come to salvation outside of the Church, which is one of the greatest errors of modern Dispensational Theology?


Genesis of Dispensational Theology

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf


Watnson's book claims that the Church being "caught up" before a "conflagration" is a Dispensational teaching.
However, I believe the same thing and am by no means a "Dispensationalist".

.

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[Biblewriter]

Both of these books were written in a desperate attempt to hide the true source of the doctrine, which is found below.

How many of the earlier sources provided in these books claimed that modern Jews would come to salvation outside of the Church, which is one of the greatest errors of modern Dispensational Theology?


Genesis of Dispensational Theology

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf


Watnson's book claims that the Church being "caught up" before a "conflagration" is a Dispensational teaching.
However, I believe the same thing and am by no means a "Dispensationalist".

.

What EACH of these books actually does, is to CONCLUSIVELY prove the utter falsehood of your claim about the origins of Dispensationalism. And the fact (if it is indeed a fact) that you found an error or two does not even approximate a rebuttal of the 500 PAGES of HARD EVIDENCE these two books together present.

 

[claninja]

All you're doing is spinning this around. The Assyrian, the MAN is said to be punished by God, it doesn't say his army is destroyed by God. He's said to be punished in Israel, Sennacherib wasn't punished in Israel, he was murdered by his two sons. Stop the spin, it's a waste of time.

I'm not spinning, I'm trying to understand your train of thought. You appear to believe that the Assyrian is 1 man. When God punished Assyria, he is punishing this 1 man. So is it 1 man that is plundering treasure, removing boundaries, and subduing rulers (Isaiah 10:12-13)? Or does he use an army?

Notice, in 2 kings 19, Isaiah prophesies specifically against Sennacherib, the king of Assyria. When happens after that? God sends and angel to destroy his army in the land of Judah. How is that not punishment on Sennacherib?

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[claninja]

You sure know how to post useless rhetoric.

The Lord said to John in Revelation 1:19, "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter."

The interlinear words Revelation 1:1 like this...

The unveiling of Jesus the anointed which God gives to him to show His slaves what is binding to be occurring in swiftness....

Shortly coming to pass is a big blunder that has misled you. It indicates that when it happens it happens suddenly.

That isn't always the case with the translation, though. Notice, Paul uses the same greek words to describe his coming to those he is writing. This would be more correctly translated as Paul hopes to come to them soon and not when Paul comes he will come in quickness.

1 Timothy 3:14 Although I hope to come to you soon (en tachei), I am writing you these things

Most, but not all of the book of Revelation is prophetic. The past, present, and future are mentioned. The ‘things which thou hast seen’ are found in chapter one. The ‘things which are’ are found in chapters 2 and 3. The ‘things which shall be hereafter’ are found in chapters 4-21.

“Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.”

The time is at hand means, "the era is near."

Don't let it fool you. But then again, Preterists fool themselves.

Again not necessarily the case with the translation. The same greek words in revelation 1:3 are use by Jesus in matthew 26.

Matthew 26:18 He said, “Go into the city to a certain man and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, My time is at hand. I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.’”


Daniel was told to seal up the vision, for it referred to "many days from now". There are, in general, 2 interpretations for Daniel 8:

1.) it's about Antiochus Epiphanes
or
2.) it's about the end times antichrist.

If it is about interpretation 1, then the many days is around 350-400 years. If it is about interpretation 2, then the many days refers to around 2,500 + years.



Daniel 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now.”

Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near

John, on the other hand, was told NOT to seal up the vision for the time was near. If interpretation 1 of Daniel 8 is correct, then "the time is near" in revelation 22 should be less than 350-400 years. If interpretation 2 of Daniel 8 is correct, then it doesn't make any sense for John NOT to seal up the vision "for the time is near", because there's not much of a difference between 2,500+ years and 2000 + years in terms of nearness

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

That isn't always the case with the translation, though. Notice, Paul uses the same greek words to describe his coming to those he is writing. This would be more correctly translated as Paul hopes to come to them soon and not when Paul comes he will come in quickness.

1 Timothy 3:14 Although I hope to come to you soon (en tachei), I am writing you these things



Again not necessarily the case with the translation. The same greek words in revelation 1:3 are use by Jesus in matthew 26.

Matthew 26:18 He said, “Go into the city to a certain man and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, My time is at hand. I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.’”


Daniel was told to seal up the vision, for it referred to "many days from now". There are, in general, 2 interpretations for Daniel 8:

1.) it's about Antiochus Epiphanes
or
2.) it's about the end times antichrist.

If it is about interpretation 1, then the many days is around 350-400 years. If it is about interpretation 2, then the many days refers to around 2,500 + years.



Daniel 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now.”

Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near

John, on the other hand, was told NOT to seal up the vision for the time was near. If interpretation 1 of Daniel 8 is correct, then "the time is near" in revelation 22 should be less than 350-400 years. If interpretation 2 of Daniel 8 is correct, then it doesn't make any sense for John NOT to seal up the vision "for the time is near", because there's not much of a difference between 2,500+ years and 2000 + years in terms of nearness

One difference is in Mathew 26:18 the word IS is (is G2076) used but in Revelation 1:3 it's NOT and actually worded, "for the time/era at hand."

And in Revelation 1:3 time looks like this,
kairos G2540 n_ Nom Sg m SEASON era

TIME in the interlinear in Mathew 26:18....
kairos G2540 n_ Nom Sg m SEASON appointed-time

See the difference?
It hardly matters because the word time is a measure. Jesus was saying his "appointed time" is coming soon.

 

[claninja]

One difference is in Mathew 26:18 the word IS is (is G2076) used but in Revelation 1:3 it's NOT and actually worded, "for the time/era at hand."

And in Revelation 1:3 time looks like this,
kairos G2540 n_ Nom Sg m SEASON era

TIME in the interlinear in Mathew 26:18....
kairos G2540 n_ Nom Sg m SEASON appointed-time

See the difference?
It hardly matters because the word time is a measure.

I agree the "is" hardly matters. Additionally the definition of Kairos G2540 doesn't really matter in this discussion. What does matter is the definition of at hand/near. Whether the time, era, or season is near makes little difference. What does make a difference is the definition of near.

eggus 1451: near (in place or time).

Is the era, time, or season near? or is it not?

This does nothing to address Daniel sealing up the vision for the time was for many days versus John not sealing up the vision for the time was near.

 

[Biblewriter]

I'm not spinning, I'm trying to understand your train of thought. You appear to believe that the Assyrian is 1 man. When God punished Assyria, he is punishing this 1 man. So is it 1 man that is plundering treasure, removing boundaries, and subduing rulers (Isaiah 10:12-13)? Or does he use an army?

Notice, in 2 kings 19, Isaiah prophesies specifically against Sennacherib, the king of Assyria. When happens after that? God sends and angel to destroy his army in the land of Judah. How is that not punishment on Sennacherib?

The fact that 2 Kings 19 is a prophecy about Sennacherib does not even imply that Isaiah 10 was about Sennacherib.

Both Dr. D Bunker and myself have produced a significant number of details in Isaiah 10 that were unquestionably not fulfilled by Sennacherib.

 

[claninja]

The wording is clear and specific. God punishes the Assyrian. He is destroyed by the breath of the Lord in Israel.

The Assyrian is broken in Israel, his yoke removed and the burden departs from Israel.

Daniel says that the little horn (anti-Christ) will not be destroyed by human hands, and that's in accord with Isaiah 14:25 about the Assyrian!

Isaiah 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot:

Sure, let's get clear and specific on the wording. It does not say "the Assyrian". It simply states "Assyria". It is not uncommon for God to refer to nations in a singular humanized sense: (e.g. Jeremiah 3:7-8). So just because God states "on my mountains trample HIM underfoot" doesn't necessarily mean that it is a singular person.

Isaiah 14:25-26 that I will break Assyria in my land, and on my mountains trample him underfoot; and his yoke shall depart from them, and his burden from their shoulder.”

We see in Isaiah 10:24-25, which parallels Isaiah 14:25 That God again refers to Assyria, not "the Assyrian". Singular pronouns are applied to Assyria's actions: "he strikes with a rod". But notice the at the end "their destruction". It's a feminine singular construct used in a masculine PLURAL sense.

Isaiah 10:24-25 Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “O my people, who dwell in Zion, be not afraid of Assyria when he strikes with the rod and lifts up his staff against you as the Egyptians did. For in a very little while my fury will come to an end, and my anger will be directed to their destruction.

 

[claninja]

The fact that 2 Kings 19 is a prophecy about Sennacherib does not even imply that Isaiah 10 was about Sennacherib.

Wasn't using 2 kings 19 to prove Sennacherib's existence in Isaiah 10.

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

Sure, let's get clear and specific on the wording. It does not say "the Assyrian". It simply states "Assyria". It is not uncommon for God to refer to nations in a singular humanized sense: (e.g. Jeremiah 3:7-8). So just because God states "on my mountains trample HIM underfoot" doesn't necessarily mean that it is a singular person.

Isaiah 14:25-26 that I will break Assyria in my land, and on my mountains trample him underfoot; and his yoke shall depart from them, and his burden from their shoulder.”

We see in Isaiah 10:24-25, which parallels Isaiah 14:25 That God again refers to Assyria, not "the Assyrian". Singular pronouns are applied to Assyria's actions: "he strikes with a rod". But notice the at the end "their destruction". It's a feminine singular construct used in a masculine PLURAL sense.

Isaiah 10:24-25 Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “O my people, who dwell in Zion, be not afraid of Assyria when he strikes with the rod and lifts up his staff against you as the Egyptians did. For in a very little while my fury will come to an end, and my anger will be directed to their destruction.

ַIsaiah 10:24 Interlinear....he-is-smiting·you and·rod-of·him.

In Isaiah 14:25 the personal pronoun is used 6 times to label the Assyrian.

"That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders."

ְI-shall-trample·him and·he-withdraws from·on·them yoke-of·him and·burden-of·him from·on shoulder-blade-of·him he-shall-withdraw

 

[claninja]

ַIsaiah 10:24 Interlinear....he-is-smiting·you and·rod-of·him.

In Isaiah 14:25 the personal pronoun is used 6 times to label the Assyrian.

"That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders."

ְI-shall-trample·him and·he-withdraws from·on·them yoke-of·him and·burden-of·him from·on shoulder-blade-of·him he-shall-withdraw

Right, I stated that in the post #393, not sure why you are repeating it. This does nothing to support you opinion.

However, you will find no Hebrew word for "THE Assyrian" in Isaiah 14:25 or Isaiah 10:24-25. You will only find the Hebrew word for simply "Assyria".

As we can see from scripture God has used personal pronouns to describe nations:

In Jeremiah 3:7-8, a personal pronoun is used 6 times to describe Israel.
Jeremiah 3:7-8 I thought that after she had done all these things, she would return to Me. But she did not return, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. Because faithless Israel had committed adultery, I gave her a certificate of divorce and sent her away.

Unless you believe God was talking about a single person in Israel?


Notice at the end "their destruction". It's a feminine singular construct used in a masculine PLURAL sense for Assyria

Isaiah 10:24-25 Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “O my people, who dwell in Zion, be not afraid of Assyria when he strikes with the rod and lifts up his staff against you as the Egyptians did. For in a very little while my fury will come to an end, and my anger will be directed to their destruction.

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

Right, I stated that in the post #393, not sure why you are repeating it. This does nothing to support you opinion.

However, you will find no Hebrew word for "THE Assyrian" in Isaiah 14:25 or Isaiah 10:24-25. You will only find the Hebrew word for simply "Assyria".

As we can see from scripture God has used personal pronouns to describe nations:

In Jeremiah 3:7-8, a personal pronoun is used 6 times to describe Israel.
Jeremiah 3:7-8 I thought that after she had done all these things, she would return to Me. But she did not return, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. Because faithless Israel had committed adultery, I gave her a certificate of divorce and sent her away.

Unless you believe God was talking about a single person in Israel?


Notice at the end "their destruction". It's a feminine singular construct used in a masculine PLURAL sense for Assyria

Isaiah 10:24-25 Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “O my people, who dwell in Zion, be not afraid of Assyria when he strikes with the rod and lifts up his staff against you as the Egyptians did. For in a very little while my fury will come to an end, and my anger will be directed to their destruction.

That's correct there is no Hebrew word for Assyrian. The personal pronouns used in the text determine it's a person. Especially when they're used 6 times in one verse! Sometime a proper is noun is used like 2 Kings and Chronicles does over 2 dozen times where it says, "king of Assyria."

Keep trying.

You can't figure it out???

Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “O my people, who dwell in Zion, be not afraid of Assyria when he strikes with the rod and lifts up his staff against you as the Egyptians did. For in a very little while my fury will come to an end, and my anger will be directed to their destruction.

 

[claninja]

That's correct there is no Hebrew word for Assyrian. The personal pronouns used in the text determine it's a person. Especially when they're used 6 times in one verse! Sometime a proper is noun is used like 2 Kings and Chronicles does over 2 dozen times where it says, "king of Assyria."

Keep trying.

You can't figure it out???

Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “O my people, who dwell in Zion, be not afraid of Assyria when he strikes with the rod and lifts up his staff against you as the Egyptians did. For in a very little while my fury will come to an end, and my anger will be directed to their destruction.

I honestly don't think your even reading my posts.

"Their destruction" is a feminine singular construct used in a masculine PLURAL sense for Assyria

God has used singular personal pronouns through scripture to describe nations ( see Jeremiah 3:7-8). So your argument that because a singular personal pronoun is used for Assyria in Isaiah 10:25-24 means that it is 1 person, fails.

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

I honestly don't think your even reading my posts.

"Their destruction" is a feminine singular construct used in a masculine PLURAL sense for Assyria

God has used singular personal pronouns through scripture to describe nations ( see Jeremiah 3:7-8). So your argument that because a singular personal pronoun is used for Assyria in Isaiah 10:25-24 means that it is 1 person, fails.

I saw that but you're just having trouble figuring it out. Verse 24 isn't talking about the Assyrian's destruction. Verse 24 is saying the Assyrian will smite Israel with HIS rod and HIS staff. Then verse 25 is saying that when he does it, Gods anger results in the destruction of the Assyrians. It's not that difficult to figure out.

For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction.

Look at Isaiah 10:12, 11:11, 11:16, 19:23,

19:23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
19:24, 25, 27:13, JER. 2:18, 2:36, Hos. 7:11, 8:9, 9:3.
NOT once do any of those passages associate Assyria with the use personal pronouns.

 

[jgr]

ַIsaiah 10:24 Interlinear....he-is-smiting·you and·rod-of·him.

In Isaiah 14:25 the personal pronoun is used 6 times to label the Assyrian.

"That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders."

ְI-shall-trample·him and·he-withdraws from·on·them yoke-of·him and·burden-of·him from·on shoulder-blade-of·him he-shall-withdraw

Isaiah 14:25 NASB
...to break Assyria in My land, and I will trample him on My mountains.

Isaiah 14:25 YLT
...To break Asshur in My land, And on My mountains I tread him down

The grammatical antecedent of “him” is the country/city of “Assyria/Asshur”.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi BABerean,

God`s word tells us that at the Great White Throne judgment, after the thousand years, that the dead will be judged according to their works. (Rev. 20: 11 - 15)

This is NOT so for those in the Body of Christ as they will not be judged. The Lord has taken that judgment upon Himself at the cross. The believers will be rewarded however at the Bema seat of Christ for what they have done under the enabling of the Holy Spirit.

We mustn`t belittle the Lord`s great work of salvation by saying that we shall be judged. We are changed into His likeness and caught up to be with Him forever.

Notice in John 5: 27 - 30 it is referring to those in the graves, (as Rev. 20) and their judgment concerns who have `done good.` The Body of Christ`s salvation is based on the Lord`s atoning work and our confession of Him. Big difference there!

Marilyn.

Hi BABerean, thought you may have missed my comments.