Approaches to Eschatology

BABerean2 · Jan 8, 2019

Dr. D Bunker said:
This is clearly a millennial passage because at no time in history has the whole earth been at rest.

Matthew 25:1-13, and Matthew 25:31-46, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1, and "the time of the judgment of the dead"(Described in John 5:27-30) in Revelation 11:18, kill the Premill doctrine, because they leave no mortals alive on the planet after the Second Coming of Christ.

,

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 8, 2019

Dr. D Bunker said:
The Assyrian is destroyed in Israel!

Isaiah 10:24-27 And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.

Yoke......neck............

"neck and yoke" (NKJV)

Deu 28:48
“therefore you shall serve your enemies, whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in need of everything;
and He will put a yoke of iron on your neck until He has destroyed you.

used together in 1 verse in the NT

Act 15:10
“Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke/zugon <2218> on the neck of the disciples
which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

I do have a question.
Why isn't this greek word #2218 rendered as "yoke" in Reve 6:5 as it is in the rest of the NT?

Reve 6
5 And when it up-opens the third seal , I hear of the third living one saying: "Be coming"!
And I see and Behold! A black horse!
and the one-sitting-down upon it having a Yoke/zugon <2218> in the hand of him.
6 And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of grain/wheat a denari and three choinex of barleys a denari,
and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring"."

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword
and they shall be being led captive into all the nations............

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the Saints.

According to Jospephus, a lot of the Jews that were taken captive were sent to Egypt to be employed as slaves, fulfilling Deuteronomy 28

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover................

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, .................
Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.

........the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome.
After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves,
or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ;
whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.[Deuteronomy 28:68]

Deuteronomy 28:
15 If, however, you do not obey Yahweh thy Elohiym by carefully following all His commandments and statutes I am giving you today,
all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:
48
“therefore you shall serve your enemies, whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in need of everything;
and He will put a yoke of iron on your neck until He has destroyed you.
67
In the morning you will say, ‘If only it were evening!’ and in the evening you will say, ‘If only it were morning!’—because of the dread in your hearts of the terrifying sights you will see.
68
“And Yahweh will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, ‘You shall never see it again.'
And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.”

,

Marilyn C · Jan 8, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Matthew 25:1-13, and Matthew 25:31-46, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1, and "the time of the judgment of the dead"(Described in John 5:27-30) in Revelation 11:18, kill the Premill doctrine, because they leave no mortals alive on the planet after the Second Coming of Christ.

Hi BABerean,

God`s word tells us that at the Great White Throne judgment, after the thousand years, that the dead will be judged according to their works. (Rev. 20: 11 - 15)

This is NOT so for those in the Body of Christ as they will not be judged. The Lord has taken that judgment upon Himself at the cross. The believers will be rewarded however at the Bema seat of Christ for what they have done under the enabling of the Holy Spirit.

We mustn`t belittle the Lord`s great work of salvation by saying that we shall be judged. We are changed into His likeness and caught up to be with Him forever.

Notice in John 5: 27 - 30 it is referring to those in the graves, (as Rev. 20) and their judgment concerns who have `done good.` The Body of Christ`s salvation is based on the Lord`s atoning work and our confession of Him. Big difference there!

Marilyn.

Dr. D Bunker · Jan 8, 2019

Dr. D Bunker · Jan 8, 2019

Dr. D Bunker · Jan 8, 2019

Radagast · Jan 8, 2019

Biblewriter said:
There are a number of approaches to the study of eschatology. But all of them can be boiled down to two choices. Do we believe that God actually meant what He said, or do we not believe that?

Not really. They disagree on what God actually said.

Biblewriter said:
The only "ism" that assumes that the entire Bible actually means everything it says is Dispensationalism.

I would disagree. So would all Christians before John Darby, who invented what is now called Dispensationalism.

Douggg · Jan 8, 2019

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 8, 2019

Dr. D Bunker said:
No hermeneutic equals a perversion of truth.

I had one guy tell me that the earthquakes Jesus mentions in Mathew 24 were "the ground shaking events" that occurred in 70 A.D.! I know what level of Editdeception I'm up against.

Ground shaking events in the 1st century. ..................

Ezekiel 38:19
"And in MY jealously, in fire of rage<5678> of ME I speak, if not in that day, shall become a great earthquake<7494> on ground<127> of Israel"
[Revelation 16:18]

Jesus had a whole City "quaking" when He entered Jerusalem"

Matthew 21
10 And He having entered into Jerusalem, all the City was shaken<4579>, saying, `Who is this?'

Luke 21 mentions "great earthquakes":

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
"great earthquakes"

Luke 21:11
There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

Some of that was fulfilled in these verses:

Which veil of Sanctuary rent in two

Matthew 27:
51 and behold! the veil of the Sanctuary<3485> was rent in two from top unto bottom.
And the land did quake, and the rocks were rent.
54 And the centurion, and those with him watching Jesus, having seen the earthquake, and the things that were done, were exceedingly afraid, saying,
`Truly this One was the Son of God.'

There was a great earthquake at the tomb of Jesus:

Matthew 28:2
And behold, there was a great earthquake;
for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door,[fn] and sat on it.

There was a great earthquake at the prison where Paul and Silas were locked up:

Act 16:
25 But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them.
26 Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken;
and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone's chains were loose

Revelation 2:10: thrown in prison, tribulation 10 days

Revelation 2:
10 ‘Be not afraid of the things that thou art about to suffer, behold!
the Devil is about to cast of you to prison<5438>, that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation ten days;
become thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of the life.
John 8:44 "Ye out of a father, the devil are,
and the desires of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing".

to be continued..................

.

BABerean2 · Jan 8, 2019

Dr. D Bunker said:
First of all not everyone who's plucked out is wicked leaving behind a certain company of blessed mortals who will enter the kingdom. The judgment of sheep and goats is what determines who enters.

Can you show how mortals are going to survive the "flaming fire" found in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?

.

Radagast · Jan 8, 2019

Dr. D Bunker said:
No hermeneutic equals a perversion of truth.

Colossians 1:23 is another KJV mistranslation. The word WAS was added!

Not a mistranslation, and nothing was added. The Greek κηρυχθέντος uses a past (aorist) tense, and that is rendered by an English past tense. But "proclaimed" might be a better word than "preached."

Colossians 1:23: "if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation {or: to every creature} under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister." (ESV)

This verse may be referring to the event of the Resurrection, or it may refer to the gospel being preached everywhere.

Dr. D Bunker said:
You quoted Colossians 1:6

6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
No hermeneutic, NO TRUTH!

AS it HAS in all the world is not correct!

Again, you are incorrect (καθὼς καὶ ἐν παντὶ τῷ κόσμῳ does mean "as also in all the world"), but there is a question about where the commas go. A better translation is:

Colossians 1:6: "which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and increasing—as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth" (ESV)

Dr. D Bunker said:
This is Colossians 1:6 in the Textus Receptus. (received text)

(Gospel) the one being present into you and being into you according-as in every the system and is being fruit charged according-as and in you from which day ye hear and on-knew the grace of God in truth.

That's not what the Textus Receptus says, and it's a nonsense translation. The only difference in the actual Greek Textus Receptus is that the words "and increasing" are missing.

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 8, 2019

Dr. D Bunker said: ↑
This is Colossians 1:6 in the Textus Receptus. (received text)

(Gospel) the one being present into you and being into you according-as in every the system and is being fruit charged according-as and in you from which day ye hear and on-knew the grace of God in truth.

Radagast said:
Not a mistranslation, and nothing was added. The Greek κηρυχθέντος uses a past (aorist) tense, and that is rendered by an English past tense. But "proclaimed" might be a better word than "preached."

Colossians 1:23: "if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation {or: to every creature} under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister." (ESV)

This verse may be referring to the event of the Resurrection, or it may refer to the gospel being preached everywhere.

Again, you are incorrect (καθὼς καὶ ἐν παντὶ τῷ κόσμῳ does mean "as also in all the world"), but there is a question about where the commas go. A better translation is:

Colossians 1:6: "which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and increasing—as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth" (ESV)

That's not what the Textus Receptus says, and it's a nonsense translation. The only difference in the actual Greek Textus Receptus is that the words "and increasing" are missing.

I don't think many futurists bother studying the Greek and Hebrew texts....or else more of them would be preterists.......
I always go to the greek texts for verses, especially for more controversial ones.
There are about 4 major Greek texts that different Bible versions use for their translations.

Nifty greek/hebrew interlinear:

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

This is one of my favorite koine greek/hebrew sites. You can mouse over each word and it will give info on it:

Greek and Hebrew Reader Online

1 Ἀποκάλυψις1 Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ θεός, δεῖξαι τοῖς δούλοις αὐτοῦ ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει2, καὶ ἐσήμανεν3 ἀποστείλας διὰ τοῦ ἀγγέλου αὐτοῦ τῷ δούλῳ αὐτοῦ Ἰωάννῃ,

- ἀποκάλυψις, noun, revelation, be revealed, to lighten , manifestation, coming, appearing (18-0)
- τάχος, noun, shortly , quickly , speedily (7-0)
- σημαίνω, verb, signify (6-0)

This shows 5 of the greek texts along with some various Bible versions [I like YLT and Rotherham's for more literal word for word and more accuracy, imho]

Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt

Revelation 1:1
Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
apokaluyiV ihsou cristou hn edwken autw o qeoV deixai toiV douloiV autou a dei genesqai en tacei kai eshmanen aposteilaV dia tou aggelou autou tw doulw autou iwannh
Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
apokaluyiV ihsou cristou hn edwken autw o qeoV deixai toiV douloiV autou a dei genesqai en tacei kai eshmanen aposteilaV dia tou aggelou autou tw doulw autou iwannh
Byzantine Majority
apokaluyiV ihsou cristou hn edwken autw o qeoV deixai toiV douloiV autou a dei genesqai en tacei kai eshmanen aposteilaV dia tou aggelou autou tw doulw autou iwannh
Alexandrian
apokaluyiV ihsou cristou hn edwken autw o qeoV deixai toiV douloiV autou a dei genesqai en tacei kai eshmanen aposteilaV dia tou aggelou autou tw doulw autou iwannh
Hort and Westcott
apokaluyiV ihsou cristou hn edwken autw o qeoV deixai toiV douloiV autou a dei genesqai en tacei kai eshmanen aposteilaV dia tou aggelou autou tw doulw autou iwannh

Latin Vulgate
1:1 apocalypsis Iesu Christi quam dedit illi Deus palam facere servis suis quae oportet fieri cito et significavit mittens per angelum suum servo suo Iohanni
King James Version
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:
American Standard Version
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;
Bible in Basic English
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave him so that his servants might have knowledge of the things which will quickly take place: and he sent and made it clear by his angel to his servant John;
Darby's English Translation
1:1 Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to shew to his bondmen what must shortly take place; and he signified it, sending by his angel, to his bondman John,
Douay Rheims
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to make known to his servants the things which must shortly come to pass: and signified, sending by his angel to his servant John,
Noah Webster Bible
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show to his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel to his servant John:
Weymouth New Testament
1:1 The revelation given by Jesus Christ, which God granted Him, that He might make known to His servants certain events which must shortly come to pass: and He sent His angel and communicated it to His servant John.
World English Bible
1:1 This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things which must happen soon, which he sent and made known by his angel to his servant, John,
Young's Literal Translation
1:1 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify it, having sent through his messenger to his servant John,

.

Radagast · Jan 8, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
This is one of my favorite koine greek/hebrew sites. You can mouse over each word and it will give info on it:

Greek and Hebrew Reader Online

Yes, I use that a lot.

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 8, 2019

Radagast said:
Yes, I use that a lot.

I have been using this lexicon/concordance for almost a decade and it wasn't till recently I found out it had a koine greek concordance.

Key G3709 and at the top it will show where the exact form of a greek word is used along with info

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

Root Word (Etymology)
From ὀρέγω (G3713)
Greek Inflections of ὀργή
mGNT — 36x in 6 unique form(s) TR — 36x in 6 unique form(s)
ὀργὴ — 9x
ὀργή — 1x
ὀργῇ — 3x
ὀργὴν — 6x
ὀργήν — 3x
ὀργῆς — 14x

G3709 ὀργή ὀργὴ — 9x
See mGNT Occurrences

Speech: Noun Parsing: Nominative Feminine Singular

Luk 21:23 -
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

Col 3:6
Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,

1Th 2:16
forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins;
but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

.

Radagast · Jan 8, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
I have been using this lexicon/concordance for almost a decade and it wasn't till recently I found out it had a koine greek concordance.

Key G3709 and at the top it will show where the exact form of a greek word is used along with info

There are much better tools out there.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 8, 2019

parousia70 said:
..James, writing under the infallible inspiration of the Holy spirit in the late 50s AD recognized Jesus coming was, at that time, "near, and at the door". James 5:8-9
...

This is STILL TRUTH. God's Word Never Changed. JESUS IS "near , and at the door".

Also, when He returns, EVERYONE will see, just as lightning is from east to west is clearly seen, EVERYONE will see and know ....

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 9, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
This is STILL TRUTH. God's Word Never Changed. JESUS IS "near , and at the door".

Also, when He returns, EVERYONE will see, just as lightning is from east to west is clearly seen, EVERYONE will see and know ....

This was said BEFORE the "parousia" of the Roman army in 70ad:

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Luke uses "Kingdom of God" instead of "nigh at the doors".

Matthew 24:33
so also ye, whenever ye may being seeing all these,
be ye knowing! that nigh is being— upon doors.

Mark 13:29
thus also ye, whenever ye may be seeing these becoming,
be ye knowing! that nigh, it is being upon doors.

Luke 21:31
Thus also ye, whenever ye may be seeing these becoming,
ye are knowing that nigh is being the Kingdom of the God;

1 Peter 4:7
And of all things the end hath come nigh<1448>;
be sober-minded, then, and watch unto the praNoneyers,

James 5:8
be patient!, also establish your hearts,
because the parousia of the Lord hath drawn nigh<1448>;

Revelation 22:10
And he saith to me, 'Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll,
because the time is nigh<1451>;

.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 9, 2019

All Scripture is truth. When Jesus returns, all will see it happen. All will know it.

keras · Jan 9, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Can you show how mortals are going to survive the "flaming fire" found in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10? .

Yes, the Lord promises protection to all who trust His in faith and who call upon His Name on that terrible Day. Isaiah 43:2, Isaiah 41:13, and even 1 Thess 1:7 says the Lord will give us relief and rescue. 2 Peter 2:9
Why must I constantly point this out to you?

Biblewriter · Jan 9, 2019

Radagast said:
Not really. They disagree on what God actually said.

I would disagree. So would all Christians before John Darby, who invented what is now called Dispensationalism.

The claim that John Darby "invented" Dispensationalism is indeed widespread. But it has been thoroughly debunked. The two most significant publications debunking this are:

"Dispensationalism Before Darby," by William C. Watson, published in 2015.
ISBN#978-1-942614-03-6

and:

"Ancient Dispensational Truth," by James C. Morris (me), published in 2018.
ISBN # 978-1-945774-29-4

Watson's book quotes many examples of dispensational doctrine published during the 1600s and 1700s, with a few examples from the 1500s.

My book quotes many examples of dispensational doctrine to be found in the very oldest surviving Christian commentaries on eschatology, and which continued to be taught at least up to the fifth century.

It is indeed true that these things eventually ceased to be taught, as was almost every other fundamental Christian doctrine. And they were not revived on any significant scale until the publication of the King James Version made Bibles widely available at a price common people could afford. But in the mid seventeenth century many writers began to revive these ancient doctrines.

John Darby indeed was the first person to make these doctrines popular, but he was far from the first to teach them.

Approaches to Eschatology

Newbie

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Pre-tribulation.

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

comes and goes

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Newbie

comes and goes

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

comes and goes

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

comes and goes

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Senior Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency