• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

"appointed to die once" and "the second death"

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Ripheus27, Mar 6, 2015.

  1. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

    +6,727
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Others
    First chance means first opportunity for salvation. There's no lottery. :D
     
  2. brixken7

    brixken7 Newbie

    300
    +39
    Christian
    Married
    US-Constitution
    "Jesus will be the Judge sitting in the Great White throne to determine who from the second resurrection obeyed Him and His Laws during the judgment period and they will be tried according to their works-Rev 20:12,13."
    ...
    True, Christ will judge the world, but also...
    "The saints shall judge the world" (I Corinthians 6:2).
    And just as we cannot earn our salvation by our good works, they will not either.
    ____________________________

    "Why have a great white throne judgment if there is nothing that the rest of the dead (unbelievers) have to do?
    ...
    The Bible gives at least 2 reasons for this judgment of the world:
    1)
    that "...the inhabitants of the world wll learn righteousness" (Isaiah 26:9).

    2) "...that all men should honor the Son" (John 5:22-23).
    _______________________

    "We are being judged in a similar way today to qualify to be in the first resurrection (those in Christ)."
    ...
    True, but it's God who causes His saints to "qualify," since it is God Who provides us all the essentials of salvation, i.e., it's really God that saves us -- NOT OURSELVES -- lest any man should boast.


    :clap:
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  3. jacobs well

    jacobs well Newbie

    543
    +42
    Christian
    Married
    " The saints shall judge the world "
    This generally refers to the Millennial rule of Jesus, the 1,000 year period where those who have been transformed to spiritual beings assist Christ in reigning over the nations-Rev 2:26.
    They will be judges and priests overseeing the administration of cities- Luke 19:16-19
    Jesus Christ will be the only one who Judges the fate of human beings in the Great White Throne Judgment time
     
  4. parsley

    parsley .

    +291
    Protestant
    Private
    If our souls are sleeping, we probably won't know the difference between "Today in paradise" or 100 years. Some believe Sheol was pre-resurrection, as people were seen to have risen from graves in Jerusalem.

    Jesus said, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand" .. which I usually consider a gesture of offering us access and authority. But could possibly mean heavenly afterlife now accessible (or both... like a plane of reality was now closer).

    The second death verses seem clear about no second chance. First the body dies as we know it does, then the soul dies, possibly in a similar way.

    These verses also show a finality, that lead away from the theory of eternal pain. The declaration is shown as final and eternal, but the incident seems short. That is slightly different from the Hell and Sheol verses, but they could all work together with some thought.

    Weeping and gnashing teeth in regret (not explained as screaming out in pain).
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  5. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    +28,280
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    The 2nd death from a Preterist view...............

    What is the Second Death in the Lake of Fire? - United Preterist Church

    [Rev 19:20... 20:10-14...21:8]

    "The second death" is just it says...a death second and different from the first death. The first death was a human were the person was either "sleeping" and awaiting the resurrection to Life or Destruction...or as the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.(Luke 16:19-31)..in Abraham's bosom or in torments. In either case...that first death had the expectation or a resurrection and judgement. The "second death" is different in time and condition. It is also called the Lake of Fire. This second death is the final death...meaning no more resurrection... and final judgement has occurred. The question then is...

    Is this "Fire" used for annihilation or eternal or temporary torture? The Greek word used for "tormented" here is basanos ...a touchstone (a dark stone used in testing metals)*. The Devil,The Beast , False Prophet , people not in the Book of Life...are all thrown into the LOF and are all persons that could be tortured. However "Death" and "Hades" are also thrown there...they cannot be tortured...but can be annihilated...as they are concepts or unseen worlds. The "death" here must be the one that use to "sleep" awaiting the resurrection. Hades is that world of all the sleeping dead before the resurrection. At the Resurrection...neither of these two concepts are needed and are thus annihilated. Therefore everything and everyone that experiences the second death of the Lake of Fire...are annihilated.
    ===========================
    Which Death Was Destroyed in AD 70

    Introduction
    The recent attack upon full Preterism, alleging that it logically leads to Universalism, has made it clear that the question which death was destroyed in A.D. 70 figures prominently in the discussion. In this article we answer this question and trace some of the ideological antecedents leading to Universalism within the Preterist camp. We will conclude that it is soteriology, not eschatology that has led some into Universalism, and this, based upon erroneous assumptions concerning imputed Adamic sin and the Mosaic law.
    We say formally became Universalist, because it is clear that Townley held opinions that were Universalistic when he wrote his book, even though he did not recognize that fact, and actually appended an article to his book against Universalism.[1] Thus, it was not Preterism that caused Townley to become Universalist, or vice versa. Even so, the historical connection remains a fact. Dr. David Thom, the Minister who ordained Townley into Universalism, stated "By some, the (Apocalypse) is considered to have received its accomplishment in the fact, and at the period of Jerusalem's destruction. Among the America Universalists this view is very prevalent." Universalists have traditionally used Preterism, or, at least, partial Preterism, to prop up their position, by arguing all judgment was exhausted in AD 70. This was the position of Universalist, Erasmus Manford in an oral debate transcribed and preserved in book form with Benjamin Franklin (churchman, not colonial statesmen).

    Conclusion

    Preterism is a system of interpreting eschatology, not soteriology, and therefore has no logical connection to Universalism. Preterism’s problem with Universalism rises out of some individuals’ erroneous assumptions concerning the corporate nature of sin and salvation as these in turn are applied to fulfilled eschatology, but have nothing to do with fulfilled eschatology itself. It is not Preterism that should be abandoned, but King’s covenant eschatology and the notion of imputed Adamic guilt.
    =======================
    The Total Victory of Christ

    Universal Salvation Explained
    Many are surprised to learn that the same church fathers who gave us our critical church doctines, including the Trinity doctrine, believed in the Universal Salvation of all people through Jesus Christ. Not to be confused with with religious universalism, here we are presenting Universal Salvation as a non-critical doctrine that Christians may freely accept or reject. Like Calvinism and Arminianism, the doctrine of Universal Salvation violates no critical church doctrines and is safely in the realm of minor doctrine.

    The five points of Universal Salvation:

    1.) God is love. His goodness is free, immutable, eternal, infinite, and impartial.
    2.) Kingdom government by the faithful. To be a child of God is to be an heir of the kingdom and therefore carries royal authority but is not exclusive salvation.
    3.) Death will be abolished by Christ. All of mankind is rescued from death by Christ, even non-believers, at the resurrection of the dead on the last day.
    4.) The judgment seat of Christ. God’s punishments are always corrective and measured, rooted in his nature of love and goodness, and never infinite.
    5.) Followers of Christ alone pass directly through death and into life before the resurrection of the dead on the last day.


    ..................................
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  6. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,476
    United States
    Baptist
    Married

    Points 2-5 are suppositions not directly supported by scripture. Although the Greek word "basanaos" once meant a touchstone for testing metal, that is not what it means in the NT.
    Here is the definition from BDAG one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available.

    βάσανος, ου, ἡ (Theognis, Pind.+, orig[inally]. ‘touchstone, test’, then of procedures or ‘torment’ used to extract a confession; ins, pap, LXX, En; TestSol 1:3; Philo; Jos., Ant. 12, 255; 13, 241; Just.)
    severe pain occasioned by punitive torture, torture, torment (Herodas 2, 88 and Diod. S, 15, 58, 2 of torture ordered by a court to extort a confession; SIG 780, 12; PLille 29 I, 22; LXX, esp. oft. 4 Macc; Philo, De Jos. 86; Jos., Bell. 1, 635; Ant. 16, 245) MPol 2:3, 4; Ox 840, 7. Of the tortures in the nether world (cp. Wsd 3:1; 4 Macc 13:15) and as synon. of ‘unquenchable fire’ 2 Cl 17:7b; ὑπάρχειν ἐν β. be in torment Lk 16:23. Descriptive of place in the nether world τόπος τῆς β. place of torment vs. 28. Cp. 2 Cl 10:4.—Of persecutions of Christians 1 Cl 6:1; 2 Cl 17:7a.—Cp. Hv 3, 7, 6; Hs 6, 3, 4; 6, 4, 3f; 6, 5, 1; 3; 7.
    ② gener. severe pain caused by someth. oppressive, severe pain, torment (w. νόσοι; cp. Sext. Emp., Eth. 153 [Adv. Math. 11, 153]; 1 Macc 9:56; Philo, Abr. 96) Mt 4:24.—Papias (3:3).—PduBois, Torture and Truth 1991. B. 1115. DELG. M-M. TW.
    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 168). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
    Sources highlighted in blue.
     
  7. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,942
    Anabaptist
    Who ever said it was the same kind of thing as the first ?
     
  8. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    +28,280
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    Great post.............

    This one commentator appears to agree with you in this Covenantle parable in Luke 16:

    Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary


    Luke 16:
    23 And in the hades, lifting up His eyes, existing in torments/basanoiV <931>, he is seeing Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in the Bosom of him.


    What did Yeshua mean by saying here that the rich man was in "torments in Hades"? The key to discovering the symbolic meaning of this verse is the Greek noun basanois, translated "torments" above.
    According to Friberg's Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, basanois, which is a form of the noun basanos, means "strictly, a touchstone for testing the genuineness of metals by rubbing against it . . ."

    The etymology of basanos found in Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament is very helpful in correctly understanding this verse:

    In non-biblical Gk. [basanos] is a commercial expression, or is used in relation to government. It then acquires the meaning of the checking of calculations, which develops naturally out of the basic sense of [basanos, basanizein] . . . In the spiritual sphere it has the figur[ative] sense, which is closely related to the original concrete meaning, of a means of testing . . .

    The word then undergoes a change in meaning. The original sense fades into the background. [Basanos] now comes to denote "torture" or "the rack," espec[ially] used with slaves . . . [Basanos] occurs in the sense of "torment" . . .

    The change in meaning is best explained if we begin with the object of treatment.

    In this verse, basanois simply conveys a sense of testing and proving through punishment. When this understanding is combined with a proper discernment of the symbolism of Hades, we can begin to see the point Yeshua is making. As a whole, the House of Judah would to be cut off and replaced during this current age by those from the nations who in faith would accept the sacrifice of the Messiah.

    If the Pharisees and scribes understood Yeshua's prophetic parable, it must have astonished and infuriated them. How could the Jews become alienated from God while the elect Gentiles became the "seed of Abraham"? The implication that the House of Judah and those called from the Gentile nations were to change places would have been almost impossible for the Pharisees and scribes to believe.

    28 "For I am having five Brothers that he may be testifying to them, that no also they may be coming into the place, this, of the torment/basanou <931>".

    Yielding himself to his destiny, the rich man asks one more thing of his forefather Abraham. He pleads with him to send someone to warn his brothers, so that they may escape "this place of torment" (basanou), the testing and punishment that he was undergoing.

    While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!

     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,476
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    While reading through you post I suddenly had a flash of clarity. What better evidence is there in the Bible that universalism is not scriptural than the words of Jesus Himself?
    Luke 16:23-26
    (23) In Hades, where he [the rich man] was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
    (24) So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
    (25) "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
    (26) And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'​
    "Nor can anyone cross over from there, tormented in flames in Hades, to us."

     
  10. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    +28,280
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    That Covenantle parable in Luke 16 is my largest study of the NT [I have about a half dozen threads on it] It mentions Abraham, Moses and Lazarus.......

    Luke 16:26
    And upon all of these between us[NC Life] and ye[OC Death/Hades] a great chasm[The Cross?] hath been established so that those willing to cross-over/diabhnai <1224> (5629) hence toward ye no may be able,

    neither thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276> (5725)

    My latest one is ongoing...................

    Luke 16 "Rich Man/Poor Man" parable.....The most misunderstood/misinterpreted Parable in the NT?


     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,476
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    I clicked on the link and listened to the speaker for a minute or 2.
    He claimed that the word translated "tormented" should be translated "anguish."
    Once again a quote from BDAG. The definition of odunao.

    ὀδυνάω (ὀδύνη) pass. fut. 3 sg. ὀδυνηθήσεται LXX; aor. 3 sg. ὠδυνήθη 4 Macc 18:9 ‘cause pain’, in our lit. only pass. ὀδυνάομαι 2 pers. ὀδυνᾶσαι (B-D-F §87; W-S. §13, 17; Mlt-H. 198; Helbing p. 61) ‘feel pain’ (Trag. et al.; Democr. 159; Pla.; Vett. Val. ind.; LXX; TestJob 24:4; TestIss 7:5; ParJer 7:31).
    to undergo physical torment, suffer pain (Aelian, NA 11, 32 p. 286, 28) περί τινος suffer pain for the sake of someone 1 Cl 16:4 (Is 53:4). Esp. of the tortures in Hades ὀδ. ἐν τῇ φλογί suffer torment in the flames Lk 16:24; cp. vs. 25.
    ② to experience mental and spiritual pain, be pained/ distressed (Dio Chrys. 66 [16], 1; Alciphron 3, 14, 2; Philo, De Jos. 94 ὀδυνώμενος; Jos., Bell. 6, 183 ὀδυνώμενον) ὀδυνώμενοι ζητοῦμέν σε we have been anxiously looking for you Lk 2:48 (two persons of different sex are referred to with a masc. modifier, as Epici p. 20, 3 K. [p. 42, 60 B.] Achilles and Helen with αὐτούς) ὀδυνώμενοι μάλιστα ἐπὶ τῷ λόγῳ they were especially pained at his saying Ac 20:38 (ὀδυνᾶσθαι ἐπί τινι as Philo, Conf. Lingu. 92).—DELG s.v. ὀδύνη. M-M s.v. ὀδυνάομαι. TW.
    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 692). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  12. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    +28,280
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    Yes you are correct.
    I haven't yet gotten to that verse in the thread [tho I have it in my study folder]

    Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

    STRONGS NT 3600: ὀδυνάω
    ὀδυνάω, ὀδύνω: present indicative passive ὀδυνῶμαι; present indicative middle 2 person singular ὀδυνᾶσαι (see κατακαυχάομαι), participle ὀδυνωμενος; (ὀδύνη); to cause intense pain; passive to be in anguish, be tormented: Luke 16:24f; middle to torment or distress oneself (A. V. to sorrow), Luke 2:48; ἐπί τίνι, Acts 20:38. (Aristophanes, Sophocles, Euripides, Plato, others; the Sept..)

    G3600
    ὀδυνάω (odynaō), occurs 4 times in 4 verses

    Luke 16:
    23 And in the hades, lifting up His eyes, existing in torments/basanoiV <931>, he is seeing Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in the Bosom of him.
    24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be you merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being anguisted/distressed/odunwmai <3600> (5743) in the flame, this."
    28 "For I am having five Brothers that he may be testifying to them, that no also they may be coming into the place, this, of the torment/basanou <931>".

    ===============================
    YLT

    Luk 2:48
    And, having seen him, they were amazed, and his mother said unto him, 'Child, why didst thou thus to us? lo, thy father and I, sorrowing, were seeking thee.'

    Luk 16:24
    and having cried, he said, Father Abraham, deal kindly with me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and may cool my tongue, because I am distressed in this flame.
    Luk 16:25
    'And Abraham said, Child, remember that thou did receive -- thou -- thy good things in thy life, and Lazarus in like manner the evil things, and now he is comforted, and thou art distressed;

    Act 20:38
    sorrowing most of all for the word that he had said -- that they are about no more to see his face; and they were accompanying him to the ship.
     
Loading...