Apparently you need at least 100 posts to post on General Apologetics

[Turbulence]

God: OT: God of Wrath NT: God of Mercy

The seeming change in God is a little tougher. I do know what you mean by this, and this was one of the things that tripped me up too. However, I think if you go back to Genesis, you will see a Holy and Just God who was equally merciful. In the NT, if you go to the very end, you will see the Merciful God who will become equally Just and full of wrathful judgement. He is the same today, yesterday, and forever.

It seems when I was a Christian, that there was always this distinction made between the God of the OT and the God of the NT ... almost as if He had a personality change between the two. But, if He is the same forever, then that can't be. Why do you think the difference in what is taught about Him? I've read some people believe that grace didn't enter the world under Jesus ... that before then there was no "grace." But that doesn't seem consistent either ... again, why suddenly a personality change? There seems to be many examples of God's mercy and grace in the typicaly OT stories that are told at church ... the saving of Noah and his family from the flood; His allowing Abraham to bargain with Him over the fate of Sodom and Gommorah; delivering the Israelites from Egypt; even the Ninevites were spared by God-almighty and they were not God's chosen people... Then in the NT, I remember in the book of Acts the story of that husband and wife (can't remember exactly their names) that were smited instantly when they lied about their money (remember all the followers had sold all their possessions and contributed to the group and yet this couple withheld some and lied about it to Peter). They weren't shown mercy or grace even though their story comes after the death and resurrection of Jesus ... so I wonder why the inconsistencies in what is taught about God.



By the way, my name is Ian.

 

[Turbulence]

Let me tell you this. In the last 18 months, my husband has had two heart attacks, my beloved grandmother has been consumed with Alzheimers, my grandfather passed away, my husband was diagnosed with Bipolar disorder, and has lost two jobs due to his illnesses. Yet, I can say with all honesty, that I have had more peace and joy in the last 18 months than in my entire life. Without God, I would have been in a mental hospital by now because no human can endure what I have been through in recent months without the grace of God. He has been my comforter, my assurance, my hope and my joy. I feel as if all of these things have happened for a purpose and many of them, I know will benefit me in the long run. This is the short version, but I am trying to tell you that there is LIFE and hope beyond all human understanding in the Lord. When these kinds of things happen to you, and the presence of God is so near, you can go on, one foot in front of the other, knowing that God will not allow anything to happen that He cannot handle. These things have drawn me ever closer to God. I could shake my fist at Heaven and demand to know "Why!", and yet, the love of God envelops me and shelters me and I know that He is with me through it all.

I pray that you will find the same peace, joy, love and amazing grace that I have found in Christ Jesus.

Lisa

My heart and my prayers go out to you and your family. May your husband and your grandmother find complete healing, and may you continue to find comfort in your faith.

 

[Lisa0315]

From reading the OT (which can be heavy at times, to say the least), there seemed to be a great number of things that God considered abominations, including various sexual relationships, the eating of certain animals, the sacrifice of a blemished animal, among others. But what is confusing, in a way, is that when the person committed such sin (for instance, bringing a blemished animal to the Temple), and then atoned for such sin, the rule itself didn't go away. But from the Christian point of view, not only have we been forgiven of those sins and atonement made, but suddenly those rules don't apply to us, you know? It's like if you speed down the highway, you get caught, and you have to "atone" for your sin via traffic school or payment of the ticket. But, once you have made whatever atonement that's required, you are still bound by the rule. If you break it 15 times, you'll still have to make "atonement" for it. So, what is it about Jesus that suddenly we are no longer bound to these rules. Also, if sin is doing wrong in God's eyes, and Jesus told us to go sin no more (well, he told the woman caught in adultery, but we could extrapolate that to ourselves), how do we know what sin is so that we don't do it anymore? Wouldn't whatever is against God's rules still be considered sin (and whatever He used to consider an abomination STILL be considered an abomination)?

Well, first of all the law was given to the Jews, not Gentiles. It never applied to those that were not of the Jewish faith. Second, the law was given to show the need for Christ. No man except Christ could keep the law, and He kept it perfectly. Christ said that if you broke one law, you broke all of the laws. The law was a temporary bandaid fix if you will until the advent of the Messiah. When the Messiah came and accomplished the will of God, the penalty of sin was paid via His sacrifice on the cross. All sin paid in full. All we have to do is pick up our receipt, so to speak. In order to do this, you simply have to accept Christ. It really is that simple. Accepting Christ will effect a change in your life, and the result will be a "new creature". For example, before I became a Christian, I was a very angry person, and I lived to hurt people especially Christians. I was very sarcastic and mean in spirit. In a way this helped me cope with some of the things that I have mentioned to you, the bipolar disorder that was just diagnosed, but was there all along. Now, I deal with these things in a different way, the way Christ would have me deal with them. Does that make sense?

 

[Lisa0315]

My heart and my prayers go out to you and your family. May your husband and your grandmother find complete healing, and may you continue to find comfort in your faith.

Thank you. It is unlikely that my grandmother will be healed, but in a way, the Alzheimers has been a blessing. I am extremely close to my grandmother. This has made it easier to let her go if you can understand that. If the Alzheimers had not happened, and she had died suddenly, I would have been devastated. This disease in some ways helps us in that we can see that she will be whole again when she is finally with God.

My husband's diagnosis...Again, this is an answer to a prayer. I have been trying to get him to see someone for over ten years with no results. The stories I could tell you...but, God has intervened and my husband got help finally. I prayed for this and just a few days later, my husband got the help he needed. Many people do not believe in miracles or in prayer, but I do believe. Some might call it coincidence, but I do not.

 

[Lisa0315]

It seems when I was a Christian, that there was always this distinction made between the God of the OT and the God of the NT ... almost as if He had a personality change between the two. But, if He is the same forever, then that can't be. Why do you think the difference in what is taught about Him? I've read some people believe that grace didn't enter the world under Jesus ... that before then there was no "grace." But that doesn't seem consistent either ... again, why suddenly a personality change? There seems to be many examples of God's mercy and grace in the typicaly OT stories that are told at church ... the saving of Noah and his family from the flood; His allowing Abraham to bargain with Him over the fate of Sodom and Gommorah; delivering the Israelites from Egypt; even the Ninevites were spared by God-almighty and they were not God's chosen people... Then in the NT, I remember in the book of Acts the story of that husband and wife (can't remember exactly their names) that were smited instantly when they lied about their money (remember all the followers had sold all their possessions and contributed to the group and yet this couple withheld some and lied about it to Peter). They weren't shown mercy or grace even though their story comes after the death and resurrection of Jesus ... so I wonder why the inconsistencies in what is taught about God.



By the way, my name is Ian.

Hi Ian,

I just do not see the inconsistencies now. I did at one time, but it is like it all fits together now. I think that God is like us, or rather that we are like Him. We have different facets to our personality. I also like to look at it as a parent to a child. In some cases, when your child does something wrong, you have mercy because you know your child is truly sorry and has otherwise behaved responsibly. In other cases, you come down very hard, "tough love" if you will, because the child is still defiant, and you MUST get through to the child.

I believe that grace was always present. The reason I believe this is because of the sin of David and Bathsheba. Now, that was a truly horrible sin even from our perspective. He slept with a married woman, got her pregnant, then, had her husband killed to cover up his sin. God saw the sin. There was no covering the sin. Yet, David was repentent. Now, sin, even repented sin is far reaching, and so the infant died, and David lived with a sword in his house for the rest of his life. Yet, God extended mercy or grace by allowing David's son Solomon to inherit and build the temple. Solomon enjoyed a reign of mostly peace and great wealth, and this was mainly due to the faithfulness of his father. You see, even though David sinned, God did extend grace and forgiveness.

I think part of the problem is that we look at everything from a human perspective. It is hard for us to see things through the eyes of God. What seems inconsistent to us is most likely perfectly just if we could just see it from the eyes of God. For example, I have heard non-believers talk about how God commanded Israel to destroy the Moabites or whatever, down to the last man, woman, and even child. This seems inconsistent with the loving God we know from the NT. Yet, God may have done this because if the Moabites were not destroyed, perhaps, 2000 years later, they would have blown up the world. I mean, I am just saying that there are things that we do not know because we cannot see how events would have played out if God had not done what God did. Do you see what I am saying?

 

[Turbulence]

Well, first of all the law was given to the Jews, not Gentiles. It never applied to those that were not of the Jewish faith. Second, the law was given to show the need for Christ. No man except Christ could keep the law, and He kept it perfectly. Christ said that if you broke one law, you broke all of the laws. The law was a temporary bandaid fix if you will until the advent of the Messiah. When the Messiah came and accomplished the will of God, the penalty of sin was paid via His sacrifice on the cross. All sin paid in full. All we have to do is pick up our receipt, so to speak. In order to do this, you simply have to accept Christ. It really is that simple. Accepting Christ will effect a change in your life, and the result will be a "new creature". For example, before I became a Christian, I was a very angry person, and I lived to hurt people especially Christians. I was very sarcastic and mean in spirit. In a way this helped me cope with some of the things that I have mentioned to you, the bipolar disorder that was just diagnosed, but was there all along. Now, I deal with these things in a different way, the way Christ would have me deal with them. Does that make sense?

Jesus, according to the NT, is the awaited Jewish Messiah. Jesus supposedly lived all the OT law perfectly so that "we" did not have to? Yet you stated that the law was only intended for the Jews, and not the Gentiles. Is Christianity only intended for the Jews, but it also happens to benifit everyone else? Since Paul states: "...be an imitator of me, as I am of Christ," then are we all supposed to now follow the OT law perfectly if we truely follow Christ? In following Jesus, a devout Christian was to dedicate oneself to representing a Christ-like life. But following Christ means following the law of the OT...

 

[Turbulence]

Thank you. It is unlikely that my grandmother will be healed, but in a way, the Alzheimers has been a blessing. I am extremely close to my grandmother. This has made it easier to let her go if you can understand that. If the Alzheimers had not happened, and she had died suddenly, I would have been devastated. This disease in some ways helps us in that we can see that she will be whole again when she is finally with God.

My husband's diagnosis...Again, this is an answer to a prayer. I have been trying to get him to see someone for over ten years with no results. The stories I could tell you...but, God has intervened and my husband got help finally. I prayed for this and just a few days later, my husband got the help he needed. Many people do not believe in miracles or in prayer, but I do believe. Some might call it coincidence, but I do not.

I used to believe in coincidence before a believed in God. Too many small "miracles" and wonders have occured in my life also that it cannot be ignored. Prayer is still important to me and I still believe that you can have a relationship with God> I trying figure out where I fit in spiritually...

 

[ravenscape]

Hi Turbulence, I just wanted to drop in on your thread and say welcome to CF! I'll ditto what others have said and mention that I find the GA forum to be pretty rough at times. You might want to drop by the Liberal Theology forum too. There are probably more Christian members who participate on that forum than this one, both liberal and conservative. Nice people too . And there's no post count requirement to post there .

 

[Turbulence]

I just do not see the inconsistencies now. I did at one time, but it is like it all fits together now. I think that God is like us, or rather that we are like Him. We have different facets to our personality. I also like to look at it as a parent to a child. In some cases, when your child does something wrong, you have mercy because you know your child is truly sorry and has otherwise behaved responsibly. In other cases, you come down very hard, "tough love" if you will, because the child is still defiant, and you MUST get through to the child.

I like the anaylogy of the Parent-Child relationship. It works since I have young children (2 boys) and time-outs are our popular method for discipline. However, my wife and I have agreed that we are not to spank no matter how defiant either child may act. There are days where both children are so out of control with their behavior, and time-outs don't seem to be working, that both of us feel like spanking. For both of us, we belive spanking only demonstrates how to react out of anger, and not to show love or trust. On these days we maintain our consistency and stand together as a united front, but we still do not spank. Continued and longer time-outs, and perhaps some toys and other belonging going on time-outs will be the outcome until our kids understand that they cannot get away with acting that way.
Here is the point:
Just as my wife and I have house rules for our children and established consequences, so does God. God established His house rules through Moses to His children. My wife and I have an agreement that neither her nor I will break...we will not spank our children. If either her or I broke this covenant with each other, then we would have a hard time trusting each other. Suggesting that suddenly God changed all His rules with His people because they were not working is dangerous. If Jesus if truly God, then Jesus (AKA God) committed an act of distrust with His people. How do God's choosen people know that God doesn't change His mind anytime He feels it is necessary? How can one trust in God knowing that He doesn't hold true to His eternal Word?

Suppose Jesus (according to God) doesn't seem to work anymore ... should God change His mind again so that He can reach all the people? How will we know if He changed His mind today?

 

[Lisa0315]

Jesus, according to the NT, is the awaited Jewish Messiah. Jesus supposedly lived all the OT law perfectly so that "we" did not have to? Yet you stated that the law was only intended for the Jews, and not the Gentiles. Is Christianity only intended for the Jews, but it also happens to benifit everyone else? Since Paul states: "...be an imitator of me, as I am of Christ," then are we all supposed to now follow the OT law perfectly if we truely follow Christ? In following Jesus, a devout Christian was to dedicate oneself to representing a Christ-like life. But following Christ means following the law of the OT...

Hi Ian,

We are free from the law whether Jew or Gentile because the Messiah has fulfilled the requirement made by God to reconcile man to Him. This does not mean that the law is not a good thing. Even the dietary laws, if we were to follow them would be a very healthy lifestyle opposed to the Fast Food generation of today. However, we are not required to follow the law. We now live in a state of grace if we are believers on Christ. Now, when I say this, understand I am no scholar or apologest, but I believe that there is the Law of God and then, there is the Mosaic laws. The Law of God such as the Ten Commandments are eternal. The Mosaic law on the other hand was used to rule a nation, but are not necesarily the law of God. For example, Mosaic law allowed for divorce, but Jesus spoke against divorce except in the case of sexual sin. He said that Moses allowed divorce due to the hardness of the people's hearts, but God never intended divorce.

Following Christ then, consists of two things and in doing these two things you will keep the Law of God: 1) Love one another---Think on this in relationship to ten commandments and you will see that if you love yourself, your family, your friends, your neighbors and even your enemies, you will have a difficult time breaking one of the ten commandments. To love one another would require you to love God also. You would not be able to love this completely without loving God. So, you would also keep the "have no other gods before me" one as well. 2) We are to tell the world the gospel. Sharing the gospel is also an act of love towards others and towards God. Do you see how really easy this is? Further development of the love theme can be found in the epistles of Paul, John, and Peter. The sticking point is this: No human is capable of this kind of selfless love without Christ. It is Christ that enables us to love in this way.

Going back to an earlier statement: I said we lived in a state of grace if we are believers ON Christ. The difference between my profession of faith as a child and my profession now is this. When I was a child, I believed IN God, believed IN the Bible, but I never really acted upon this belief. The insight that I was given about 18 months caused me to believe ON Christ. This is not semantics. The Bible teaches us that even demons believe and tremble. It is not enough to simply believe that Jesus is who He said He was, but believing ON Christ is an action in which you turn your entire life over to His will. You purpose in your heart to follow Christ and you place your complete trust in Him even before you have all the answers, or even, ESPECIALLY before you have all the answers. This is faith.

Now, a true believer who has believed ON Christ lives in a state of grace meaning that while sin will still occur in the life of a believer, that sin has already been forgiven. Now, there are Christians who do not agree on this doctrine and that is okay. I am telling you what I believe and what rings true to me. This state of grace is not to be abused. We continue to strive for perfection, meaning, we fall, we repent, we try again, we fall, we repent, we try again. We practice our salvation, but my belief is that nothing and no one can remove this grace from us. Grace is a gift from God and He does not break His promises to us even if we break ours to Him. Again, this is my belief and I can support it with scripture, but there are other Christians who can equally support their position with other scripture.

One of the most confounding things about Christianity are all of the various doctrines that conflict with one another. The biggest conflict is the assurance of salvation. I believe that we have this assurance of salvation and that it cannot be taken from us. Others do not believe this, but do not let the disagreement of doctrine hold you back. This is the kind of thing that turned me off for a long time. So, I understand it, but I have since realized that much of our differences do not matter. It is the heart that God is concerned with, not the theology behind it.

I say all of this because different denominations place different emphasis on "works", in effect, "keeping the law". I believe that works are a result of faith. Others believe that faith is a result of works. Still others believe that it is a combination, and I have leanings towards the combo doctrine myself. The point is works alone will not get you to God. I believe that all of us agree on this. So, keeping the law will not get you to Heaven. There is some speculation among Christians that Jews may be an exception to this. I do not know and this is the reason why I do not argue or discuss this with Jews.

I am very much enjoying this conversation with you. It is in fact helping me to examine and understand why I believe what I believe.

Lisa

 

[Lisa0315]

I used to believe in coincidence before a believed in God. Too many small "miracles" and wonders have occured in my life also that it cannot be ignored. Prayer is still important to me and I still believe that you can have a relationship with God> I trying figure out where I fit in spiritually...

You are honestly seeking God and He will not disappoint you. I cannot promise you that all your answers will be answered, but I think that if you keep seeking Him, He will provide enough resolution to satisfy you. Honestly, if I could go back in time, I wish that I would have stopped asking questions a lot sooner, but that is how curious people are. God allows for that, I believe. He understands it because He gave us the minds that we have. I used to have conversations with God before I was a believer, and I would say something to the effect of "You gave me this mind. I cannot help that I have these questions" I was almost apolgetic as if I knew that God would prefer that I just accept Him, but at the same time I felt as if He understood. Then, one day, I knew that the time for questions and answers was over and it was time for me to make my decision. You will get there too. Once I did surrender, I realized that my questions were more about people than about God. There were Christians in my life who had disappointed me and hurt me, and those emotions developed into these huge questions about God. That may or may not be true for you too. That's how it was for me, but I didn't understand this until after I believed.

 

[Lisa0315]

I like the anaylogy of the Parent-Child relationship. It works since I have young children (2 boys) and time-outs are our popular method for discipline. However, my wife and I have agreed that we are not to spank no matter how defiant either child may act. There are days where both children are so out of control with their behavior, and time-outs don't seem to be working, that both of us feel like spanking. For both of us, we belive spanking only demonstrates how to react out of anger, and not to show love or trust. On these days we maintain our consistency and stand together as a united front, but we still do not spank. Continued and longer time-outs, and perhaps some toys and other belonging going on time-outs will be the outcome until our kids understand that they cannot get away with acting that way.
Here is the point:
Just as my wife and I have house rules for our children and established consequences, so does God. God established His house rules through Moses to His children. My wife and I have an agreement that neither her nor I will break...we will not spank our children. If either her or I broke this covenant with each other, then we would have a hard time trusting each other. Suggesting that suddenly God changed all His rules with His people because they were not working is dangerous. If Jesus if truly God, then Jesus (AKA God) committed an act of distrust with His people. How do God's choosen people know that God doesn't change His mind anytime He feels it is necessary? How can one trust in God knowing that He doesn't hold true to His eternal Word?

Suppose Jesus (according to God) doesn't seem to work anymore ... should God change His mind again so that He can reach all the people? How will we know if He changed His mind today?

hmm...I don't think that I suggested that God changed the rules with His people, but if I did I apologize. I was trying to show you from Genesis to the advent of Christ that the law, sacrificial system and the like were bandaid fixes until the coming of the Messiah. God promised the Messiah in the garden. Why, He couldn't send the Messiah until 4000 years later, I have no idea. But, for whatever purpose, this was God's plan. There is so much to learn from the OT, so many examples of faith, trials and victories. Hebrews 11 is what I call the "Faith Hall of Fame". It ties the OT to the NT quite well. To me, God has not changed. To me, I see different facets of the personality of God. Let me see if I can say this a new way.

When we think of Christ, we think of a humble, loving, compassionate man who endured suffering and shame, then died horribly on the cross. Yet, this same Jesus will come again, but the next time He comes, He will be wearing combat boots! I thought Mel Gibson's portrayal of Christ was very likely. You saw a perfect speciman of a strong muscular man who could be stern and strong and very masculine, yet, kind, loving, gentle, even playful with His mother. The very picture of the perfect man. At the very end of the movie, you see this powerful figure rising, standing tall, victorious, and it is THIS Jesus who will return. As a husband and father yourself, can you see the various aspects of your own unique personality in all ways "manly", yet this means different things at different times. Gentle with your children and wife, yet strong and commanding when needed. Correct? So is God. God is gentle and loving and compassionate, but strong, commanding, and JUST. God is well, Godly! Justice perfectly balanced with Mercy. The OT shows the Just God. The NT shows the Merciful God. No contradiction, no change, just different sides of the same God.

 

[AdamAnderson21]

Good. That'll keep all the non-Christian nutbags from posting in it.

 

[Lisa0315]

Good. That'll keep all the non-Christian nutbags from posting in it.

Whaaaattttt???? You are kidding, right?

 

[AdamAnderson21]

You apparently haven't read the leftist nutbag conspiracy theorists threads that populate this forum.

 

[MyLittleWonders]

hmm...I don't think that I suggested that God changed the rules with His people, but if I did I apologize. I was trying to show you from Genesis to the advent of Christ that the law, sacrificial system and the like were bandaid fixes until the coming of the Messiah. God promised the Messiah in the garden. Why, He couldn't send the Messiah until 4000 years later, I have no idea. But, for whatever purpose, this was God's plan. There is so much to learn from the OT, so many examples of faith, trials and victories. Hebrews 11 is what I call the "Faith Hall of Fame". It ties the OT to the NT quite well. To me, God has not changed. To me, I see different facets of the personality of God. Let me see if I can say this a new way.

When we think of Christ, we think of a humble, loving, compassionate man who endured suffering and shame, then died horribly on the cross. Yet, this same Jesus will come again, but the next time He comes, He will be wearing combat boots! I thought Mel Gibson's portrayal of Christ was very likely. You saw a perfect speciman of a strong muscular man who could be stern and strong and very masculine, yet, kind, loving, gentle, even playful with His mother. The very picture of the perfect man. At the very end of the movie, you see this powerful figure rising, standing tall, victorious, and it is THIS Jesus who will return. As a husband and father yourself, can you see the various aspects of your own unique personality in all ways "manly", yet this means different things at different times. Gentle with your children and wife, yet strong and commanding when needed. Correct? So is God. God is gentle and loving and compassionate, but strong, commanding, and JUST. God is well, Godly! Justice perfectly balanced with Mercy. The OT shows the Just God. The NT shows the Merciful God. No contradiction, no change, just different sides of the same God.

G-d never intended for the Torah to be a "bandaid" to fix man's problems. Unfortunately, that is a myth from the Christian church. G-d gave the Torah as a way to set-apart the Israelites - to make them a holy nation unto Him. Why in the world would He give people a set of guidelines by which to live, knowing full-well that they would fail miserably, and then for some strange reason pick approximately 3 BCE to send His "son" into the world to redeem it? Especially, why then since the Temple was still standing? Why not after the destruction of the first temple or following the destruction of the second temple?

I would recommend to anyone, especially Christians, to read through the Torah not with the Pauline mindset that the "law" is "bad" but rather as a love-letter from the Creator to His choosen people.

Exodus 19:3-6 -
"Moses ascended to God and HaShem called to him from the mountain, saying, 'So shall you say to the House of Jacob and relate to the children of Israel. "You have seen what I did to Egypt, and that I have borne you on the wings of eagles and brought you to Me. And now, if you hearken well to Me and observe My covenant, you shall be to Me the most beloved treasure of all people, for Mine is the entire world. You shall be to Me a kingdom of ministers and a holy nation." These are the words that you shall speak to the Children of Israel.'"

Does that really sound like G-d was setting His people up for failure, knowing that the "law" He was about to give them would only provide for a temporary fix?

David also saw the Torah as much more as a temporary fix-it:

Psalm 119:33-35 -
"Teach me, O HaShem, the way of Your statues, and I will cherish it to the utmost. Grant me understanding so that I may cherish Your Torah, and keep it with [my] whole heart. Lead me on the path of Your commandments, for that is my desire."

David speaks of the Torah as being something to cherish and cling to - not something that is causing him to stumble, something that only points out his sin and filthiness before G-d (basically Paul's view).

As well, I still stand by the fact that the OT does not show a merciful, grace-giving, gentle G-d. Even what I quoted above from Exodus speaks of a G-d that greatly loves the Israelites and wants to set them apart as holy.

 

[Lisa0315]

G-d never intended for the Torah to be a "bandaid" to fix man's problems. Unfortunately, that is a myth from the Christian church. G-d gave the Torah as a way to set-apart the Israelites - to make them a holy nation unto Him. Why in the world would He give people a set of guidelines by which to live, knowing full-well that they would fail miserably, and then for some strange reason pick approximately 3 BCE to send His "son" into the world to redeem it? Especially, why then since the Temple was still standing? Why not after the destruction of the first temple or following the destruction of the second temple?

I would recommend to anyone, especially Christians, to read through the Torah not with the Pauline mindset that the "law" is "bad" but rather as a love-letter from the Creator to His choosen people.

Exodus 19:3-6 -
"Moses ascended to God and HaShem called to him from the mountain, saying, 'So shall you say to the House of Jacob and relate to the children of Israel. "You have seen what I did to Egypt, and that I have borne you on the wings of eagles and brought you to Me. And now, if you hearken well to Me and observe My covenant, you shall be to Me the most beloved treasure of all people, for Mine is the entire world. You shall be to Me a kingdom of ministers and a holy nation." These are the words that you shall speak to the Children of Israel.'"

Does that really sound like G-d was setting His people up for failure, knowing that the "law" He was about to give them would only provide for a temporary fix?

David also saw the Torah as much more as a temporary fix-it:

Psalm 119:33-35 -
"Teach me, O HaShem, the way of Your statues, and I will cherish it to the utmost. Grant me understanding so that I may cherish Your Torah, and keep it with [my] whole heart. Lead me on the path of Your commandments, for that is my desire."

David speaks of the Torah as being something to cherish and cling to - not something that is causing him to stumble, something that only points out his sin and filthiness before G-d (basically Paul's view).

As well, I still stand by the fact that the OT does not show a merciful, grace-giving, gentle G-d. Even what I quoted above from Exodus speaks of a G-d that greatly loves the Israelites and wants to set them apart as holy.

No one except Jesus Christ has been able to keep the law. Even if you do not believe that Jesus is the Christ, you must see that the law was given to show the NEED for the Messiah. All have come short of the Glory of God. There is no one who can claim otherwise.

 

[Lucasinvictus]

leftist nutbag conspiracy theorists threads

hahahah.. thats like the pot callin the kettle black... no?

 

[AdamAnderson21]

No, it's really not.

 

[Lucasinvictus]

*no comment*