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[MyLittleWonders]

No one except Jesus Christ has been able to keep the law. Even if you do not believe that Jesus is the Christ, you must see that the law was given to show the NEED for the Messiah. All have come short of the Glory of God. There is no one who can claim otherwise.

Actually, no, I do not see the law as given to show the need for the Messiah. First of all, I don't believe you have an understanding of the Jewish Moshiach, who he is to be and what he is to do. His purpose will be to regather the Jewish people to Israel, rebuild the Temple, and turn every heart back to G-d and His Torah ... not make the Torah null and void. (Read, for instance, Ezekiel 37:21-28 or so.)

As well, aside from the Christian scriptures, you have no proof that anyone kept the whole law. And to quote King Solomon, "When they [the people of Israel] sin against You - for there is no man who never sins ... ." (1 Kings 8:46)

The law, from the Jewish perspective, and in my opinion the only valid perspective seeing as it's THEIR law, was never meant as a bandaid nor to show the Israelites how horrible they are without a saviour. That is a Christian myth of the law, made up only to support the Christian belief that a saviour is needed in the first place, because according to Jewish Scripture, there isn't the need ... we are not dead in our trespasses nor condemned to eternal damnation.

 

[Lisa0315]

Actually, no, I do not see the law as given to show the need for the Messiah. First of all, I don't believe you have an understanding of the Jewish Moshiach, who he is to be and what he is to do. His purpose will be to regather the Jewish people to Israel, rebuild the Temple, and turn every heart back to G-d and His Torah ... not make the Torah null and void. (Read, for instance, Ezekiel 37:21-28 or so.)

As well, aside from the Christian scriptures, you have no proof that anyone kept the whole law. And to quote King Solomon, "When they [the people of Israel] sin against You - for there is no man who never sins ... ." (1 Kings 8:46)

The law, from the Jewish perspective, and in my opinion the only valid perspective seeing as it's THEIR law, was never meant as a bandaid nor to show the Israelites how horrible they are without a saviour. That is a Christian myth of the law, made up only to support the Christian belief that a saviour is needed in the first place, because according to Jewish Scripture, there isn't the need ... we are not dead in our trespasses nor condemned to eternal damnation.

Sadly, even Christ's disciples believed that the Messiah was a man of great political power who would set up an earthly kingdom. They did not get it until the Holy Spirit came and filled them. No matter how many times Christ tried to tell them, they kept thinking all they way up to the day of Pentecost that the Messiah would overthrow Rome and set up the Messanic kingdom.

In saying all of this, there is nothing that I can say to you that will convince you that Jesus is the Christ. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal this to you.

Peace,

Lisa

 

[MyLittleWonders]

Sadly, even Christ's disciples believed that the Messiah was a man of great political power who would set up an earthly kingdom. They did not get it until the Holy Spirit came and filled them. No matter how many times Christ tried to tell them, they kept thinking all they way up to the day of Pentecost that the Messiah would overthrow Rome and set up the Messanic kingdom.

In saying all of this, there is nothing that I can say to you that will convince you that Jesus is the Christ. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal this to you.

Peace,

Lisa

The point is, is that is what G-d says in His Scriptures ... read Ezekiel 37, starting at about verse 21 ... G-d says what the Moshiach will do. Somehow in Christian theology, that got turned into the antichrist ... The Moshiach WILL BE a man of great EARTHLY political power, establish peace, regather the dispersed to Israel, rebuild the Temple, and return people to G-d and His Torah. This isn't a myth ... it's spelled out rather clearly in G-d's Word.

And believe me, I was a Christian for 13 years ... I understood the "party line" all too well, and only when I went searching for myself rather than just believing what the church has taught for the better part of 2000 years that I realized what the Christian church teaches doesn't line up at all with the supposed Scriptures it was built upon (the Tanakh).

 

[Turbulence]

Sorry I have been gone sooo long... I wanted to continue our conversation, but I work 2 jobs during the week and even my weekends are busy.

 

[Turbulence]

Hi Ian,

We are free from the law whether Jew or Gentile because the Messiah has fulfilled the requirement made by God to reconcile man to Him.

Where in Messianic prophesy does it say (scripturally speaking of course) that the Messiah will free us from the bonds of the law?

 

[Turbulence]

Now, when I say this, understand I am no scholar or apologest, but I believe that there is the Law of God and then, there is the Mosaic laws. The Law of God such as the Ten Commandments are eternal. The Mosaic law on the other hand was used to rule a nation, but are not necesarily the law of God. For example, Mosaic law allowed for divorce, but Jesus spoke against divorce except in the case of sexual sin. He said that Moses allowed divorce due to the hardness of the people's hearts, but God never intended divorce.

Correct me if I am mistaken, but wasn't the Ten Commandments given to the Israelites after the exodus from Egypt? ...the same time that Moses was leading the people and received the "law" from God on Mount Sinai - also known as the Mosiac law? I thought the Ten Commandments were God's Laws just as much as the Mosaic laws were also from God. I guess I do not see the distinction that you are trying to make between these 2 types of law.

It seems to me that any law from God is eternal... such as keeping the festivals of the Lord. I know that in Exodus 12:14 it states that Passover shall be observed as an eternal decree. It also states in Zechariah 14:16 that the Festival of Tabernacles will be observed by all nations for all time.

Suppose that the Ten Commandments were eternal and apply to all. Then why don't people observe the Sabbath anymore? Why do people own carved images of people and animals? Why do people continue in idol worship?

 

[Turbulence]

Following Christ then, consists of two things and in doing these two things you will keep the Law of God: 1) Love one another---Think on this in relationship to ten commandments and you will see that if you love yourself, your family, your friends, your neighbors and even your enemies, you will have a difficult time breaking one of the ten commandments.

I guess I still have the same question as the previous post regarding having a difficult time breaking one of the commandments.

To love one another would require you to love God also. You would not be able to love this completely without loving God. So, you would also keep the "have no other gods before me" one as well.

Also, taking the stand that God is one, and at the same time that Jesus also being God is two (and don't forget the third being the "Spirit") would be a contradiction. If someone did not believe that Jesus was God, then they would be breaking the first of the Ten Commmandments. I think Jesus showed his followers how to worship God [the Father] (ie. how to pray to God, how to be a servant to God, etc.), but bowed out of asking his followers to worship him. I do not think Jesus desired the direct , but rather demonstrated how to live a life pleasing to God.

 

[Turbulence]

One of the most confounding things about Christianity are all of the various doctrines that conflict with one another. The biggest conflict is the assurance of salvation. I believe that we have this assurance of salvation and that it cannot be taken from us. Others do not believe this, but do not let the disagreement of doctrine hold you back. This is the kind of thing that turned me off for a long time. So, I understand it, but I have since realized that much of our differences do not matter. It is the heart that God is concerned with, not the theology behind it.

I too believe that God knows each of our hearts. It is very important to live a life that demonstrates His love and perpetuates morality and humanity. I do believe that charity and service is a necessary element to life as well. I have a very BIG and HYPOTHETICAL question to ask!!

WHAT IF no one needed salvation and there was no existance of a "hell?" Would there be any need to spread the "gospel" or try to evangelize the world? I understand the very nature of this question counters the NT scriptures...but just play along so I am able to understand better. Here is what I am thinking: Christianity is one of the only religions that needs to go out and convert the world to its belief. If the "hell" thing did not exist, then perhaps every type of religion could be a path to following God.

 

[Turbulence]

As well, aside from the Christian scriptures, you have no proof that anyone kept the whole law. And to quote King Solomon, "When they [the people of Israel] sin against You - for there is no man who never sins ... ." (1 Kings 8:46)

Are you suggesting that since Jesus was as much "man" as the Christians say that he was also "God," then either King Soloman was mistaken or Jesus must have sinned sometime during his life?

 

[MyLittleWonders]

Are you suggesting that since Jesus was as much "man" as the Christians say that he was also "God," then either King Soloman was mistaken or Jesus must have sinned sometime during his life?

Personally, I do not believe the god-man status of Jesus. Historically speaking, Jesus was a man, plain and simple. There is nothing in Scripture (Tanakh) that indicates the messiah will be divine or even semi-divine, nor is there any support for G-d becoming man. And think about this: if G-d is all-knowing, as the Christian church teaches (and I'm not arguing that He isn't ), then WHY would He need to come to earth as a man so that He can better understand us? That is something I always heard from the church - He needed to live as one of us to understand us better and identify with us. WHAT IN THE WORLD?! He created us; we carry characteristics of Him according to Genesis (we are made in His image). If He created us, we are made in His image, AND He is ALL-KNOWING, there is absolutely NO need for Him to come to earth as a lowly baby to better identify with us. It makes no logical sense, and frankly makes G-d out to be incompetent and not all-knowing.

ETA: So, yes, if Jesus actually lived, he would have sinned just like you or I. I'm thinking I'll go with King Solomon on this one.

 

[Lisa0315]

Where in Messianic prophesy does it say (scripturally speaking of course) that the Messiah will free us from the bonds of the law?

I don't know the answer to this question. I will see if I can find out.

 

[Lisa0315]

Correct me if I am mistaken, but wasn't the Ten Commandments given to the Israelites after the exodus from Egypt? ...the same time that Moses was leading the people and received the "law" from God on Mount Sinai - also known as the Mosiac law? I thought the Ten Commandments were God's Laws just as much as the Mosaic laws were also from God. I guess I do not see the distinction that you are trying to make between these 2 types of law.

It seems to me that any law from God is eternal... such as keeping the festivals of the Lord. I know that in Exodus 12:14 it states that Passover shall be observed as an eternal decree. It also states in Zechariah 14:16 that the Festival of Tabernacles will be observed by all nations for all time.

Suppose that the Ten Commandments were eternal and apply to all. Then why don't people observe the Sabbath anymore? Why do people own carved images of people and animals? Why do people continue in idol worship?

Again, I can only tell you what I believe. As a Gentile/Non-Jew, I was never bound by the ceremonial and feast laws. As a Christian, I believe that I do not need the sacrificial offerings as Jesus was the final sacrifice to save men from all sins for all time. The rending of the veil in the temple at the death of Christ represented the end of the separation between God and Man. This means to me that all prior things required to unite man to God were ended at the completion of the saving work of Christ.

The Zechariah verses, I believe are referring the 1000 year reign of Christ. Temple worship and Feasts are to resume during that time, but there will be no sacrifices required as the Lamb of God has already been slain.

Passover to be observed eternally, fair enough. Communion will be done eternally as well. Remember, "Do this in remembrance of me". Passover is all a reminder of the deliverance of the Children of Israel. I also believe that Communion replaces Passover for Christians, but I could be mistaken about that.

Your questions are getting harder and harder. I am having a hard time keeping up. I sure wish a scholarly variety of Christian would join this discussion.

I think all in all the questions you are asking are related to OT vs NT, and I am having a hard time giving you the answers. To me it is black and white, Old Covanent vs New Covanent, Jewish requirements vs Christian requirements. I wish that I could do a better job in giving you the answers you are seeking. Are you up to 100 posts yet? I think your questions would be great if they were asked in GA, and I think you would get a better response than the ones that I am trying to give.

Anyway, I have enjoyed our discussion even though I feel my attempts at answers have not been what you really need. I know there are people here who can give you better answers. You have come to the right place, but, perhaps, not the right person.

 

[Lisa0315]

I guess I still have the same question as the previous post regarding having a difficult time breaking one of the commandments.

Also, taking the stand that God is one, and at the same time that Jesus also being God is two (and don't forget the third being the "Spirit") would be a contradiction. If someone did not believe that Jesus was God, then they would be breaking the first of the Ten Commmandments. I think Jesus showed his followers how to worship God [the Father] (ie. how to pray to God, how to be a servant to God, etc.), but bowed out of asking his followers to worship him. I do not think Jesus desired the direct , but rather demonstrated how to live a life pleasing to God.

Jesus did demonstrate how to live a life pleasing to God. People did worship Christ many times in Scripture and He did not correct them for it. Here are some examples:

Jesus heals the Leper: Matthew 8:1-4 Verse 2 tells of the Leper worshipping Christ, and then, verse 3, Christ heals the leper

The disciples worship Christ after He calms the storm: Matthew 14:22-36 In verse 33, they that were with Christ on the ship worship Him and acknowledge his deity.

The non-Jewish woman's daughter is healed: Matthew 15:21-28 She worships Christ in verse 25

There are many more, these are but a few. So, Christ was certainly worshipped in Scripture.

 

[Lisa0315]

I too believe that God knows each of our hearts. It is very important to live a life that demonstrates His love and perpetuates morality and humanity. I do believe that charity and service is a necessary element to life as well. I have a very BIG and HYPOTHETICAL question to ask!!

WHAT IF no one needed salvation and there was no existance of a "hell?" Would there be any need to spread the "gospel" or try to evangelize the world? I understand the very nature of this question counters the NT scriptures...but just play along so I am able to understand better. Here is what I am thinking: Christianity is one of the only religions that needs to go out and convert the world to its belief. If the "hell" thing did not exist, then perhaps every type of religion could be a path to following God.

If no one needed salvation, then, there would not be all the various religions or even the various flavors of Christianity. If salvation were not needed, then, man would still be sinless, and would have perfect communion with God. God would litterally come down and walk with us just as He did in the garden in the cool of the day.

There would be no need of Hell either unless it was reserved for the fallen angels.

 

[Turbulence]

I don't know the answer to this question. I will see if I can find out.

Thanks!

 

[Turbulence]

Your questions are getting harder and harder. I am having a hard time keeping up. I sure wish a scholarly variety of Christian would join this discussion.

I think all in all the questions you are asking are related to OT vs NT, and I am having a hard time giving you the answers. To me it is black and white, Old Covanent vs New Covanent, Jewish requirements vs Christian requirements. I wish that I could do a better job in giving you the answers you are seeking. Are you up to 100 posts yet? I think your questions would be great if they were asked in GA, and I think you would get a better response than the ones that I am trying to give.

Anyway, I have enjoyed our discussion even though I feel my attempts at answers have not been what you really need. I know there are people here who can give you better answers. You have come to the right place, but, perhaps, not the right person.

I am sorry that I am asking questions that are bordering on the scope of your Christian knowledge. I really want you to know that I truly appreciate your ideas and input. I don't want you to feel overwhelmed by the thousands of questions and intricate details regarding all the inconsistencies that I have been discovering between the OT and NT. Here... this is for you!

Again, I appreciate everything...

 

[Turbulence]

Again, I can only tell you what I believe. As a Gentile/Non-Jew, I was never bound by the ceremonial and feast laws. As a Christian, I believe that I do not need the sacrificial offerings as Jesus was the final sacrifice to save men from all sins for all time. The rending of the veil in the temple at the death of Christ represented the end of the separation between God and Man. This means to me that all prior things required to unite man to God were ended at the completion of the saving work of Christ.

Do you hold to the belief that man and God were separated before Jesus? I am curious how you feel about God appearing before the nation of Israel during the wondering in the desert for 40 years (as He appeared before His people in a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day). Also how God's Spirit rested between the cherubim above the Ark of the Covenant in the Temple before its original destruction.

 

[Turbulence]

Jesus did demonstrate how to live a life pleasing to God. People did worship Christ many times in Scripture and He did not correct them for it. Here are some examples:

Jesus heals the Leper: Matthew 8:1-4 Verse 2 tells of the Leper worshipping Christ, and then, verse 3, Christ heals the leper

The disciples worship Christ after He calms the storm: Matthew 14:22-36 In verse 33, they that were with Christ on the ship worship Him and acknowledge his deity.

The non-Jewish woman's daughter is healed: Matthew 15:21-28 She worships Christ in verse 25

There are many more, these are but a few. So, Christ was certainly worshipped in Scripture.

According to the NT, Jesus was a miracle-worker. Perhaps he used the Spirit of God do accomplish the impossible. Since Jesus performed such wonderous signs, maybe he felt that he was the long-awaited Messiah for the Jewish people who was to usher in peace and show the way to God. Perhaps Jesus thought that the worship directed towards himself was a part of the Messiah role. Maybe the worship recorded in the NT was no different than the "worship" paid to kings such as David or Solomon.

 

[Turbulence]

Passover to be observed eternally, fair enough. Communion will be done eternally as well. Remember, "Do this in remembrance of me". Passover is all a reminder of the deliverance of the Children of Israel. I also believe that Communion replaces Passover for Christians, but I could be mistaken about that.

Curious Question: How could Jesus be the Passover Lamb, yet the Passover Lamb never served as a sin offering for the people of Israel. Of course, this question implies that Jesus was the ultimate "sin offering."

 

[sc4s2cg]

According to the NT, Jesus was a miracle-worker. Perhaps he used the Spirit of God do accomplish the impossible. Since Jesus performed such wonderous signs, maybe he felt that he was the long-awaited Messiah for the Jewish people who was to usher in peace and show the way to God. Perhaps Jesus thought that the worship directed towards himself was a part of the Messiah role. Maybe the worship recorded in the NT was no different than the "worship" paid to kings such as David or Solomon.

I don't think G-d would let someone claim to be Him in the flesh if its not true..Jesus' "powers" would have been taken away I think...

Curious Question: How could Jesus be the Passover Lamb, yet the Passover Lamb never served as a sin offering for the people of Israel. Of course, this question implies that Jesus was the ultimate "sin offering."

http://www.annieshomepage.com/passover.html
I think that website could answer your question.

G-d bless,
sc