Apparent Contradiction

[Par5]

Can you please state what you believe is a contradiction? Ask a question that can be answered? Because I read these 4 verses and don't see what you see. Thanks.

You can find plenty of verses in the bible that contradict the idea that "god is love."
If you actually believe some of the atrocities recorded in the bible that are attributed to the biblical god, then "jealous" is a rather generous description of this being.

 

[Par5]

I under where you are coming from people ask this a lot about the Bible which was written over thousands of years .In the Old Testament seems harsh to modern people today.But those people where at a much lower state of mind .When a parent yells at a child do not touch that hot stove ! its because a child doesn't have the mentality where a parent can reason with them rationally yet .Same with the people in the OT who where at a much lower state of mind than we could ever imagine today.

And there you have the truth. As you said, people of OT biblical times were capable of doing things that we today view as totally abhorrent. When I bring up verses of biblical violence, such as the slaughter of the Canaanites and the Amalekites, I am often accused of using such verses to express a hatred of the biblical god. That is not true. I don't believe in the biblical god and have stated time and time again that if such atrocities did in fact occur, then they were the acts of men and men alone. I place no blame on a being I don't believe in.
What I do question is how people can believe in such a being when the bible states that those very atrocities were at its behest. You said yourself that people of those days were at a much lower state of mind that we could ever imagine. As the bible records that it was at the biblical god's command that such atrocities took place, does that also mean that you believe in a being that has a much lower state of mind that we could ever imagine?

 

[Tolworth John]

then why does love not envy? If God loves us through his jealousy

There is a difference between 'envy' and 'jealousy'

Envy is wanting what is not ours while Jealousy is a desire to keep what is ours.

We are Gods, made to worship and serve him only, so he is rightly jealous about our worship.

 

[John Bowen]

Thou shall not kill pretty clear to me.Lots of people have used god to justify killing in history and even today.I only know the Creator Jesus spoke about that is unconditional love.That is a spirit that cannot be put in a mental box.The Creator of the universe where the Earth is less than a speck of dust .and the amazing discoveries in science that give proof.Like Quantum Physics , e=mc2 proof everything is energy in its highest form light waves .What supposedly was the first thing God said " Let they're be light ! "

 

[Nithavela]

"Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up."—1 Corinthians 13:4

"For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."—Deuteronomy 4:24

 

[royal priest]

That's just as good as saying, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1)." Since faith is rewarded in the Bible, it has been easy for many to deceive us by claiming to be of God. My belief in the Bible has come from comparing it to other religions and histories, not by blind faith. Because of the Bible's typical consistencies and fulfilled prophecies, I believe it. But I'm not sure I believe the whole thing because I haven't read the whole thing, and passages like this one from Hebrews about faith make me more skeptical.

Trusting God means trusting His Word, even when it does not make sense. When this happens, don't write it off. Rather, be more ready to disregard your own 'wisdom' and get back to study and prayer.

 

[Ken Rank]

You can find plenty of verses in the bible that contradict the idea that "god is love."
If you actually believe some of the atrocities recorded in the bible that are attributed to the biblical god, then "jealous" is a rather generous description of this being.

I asked the originator of the thread what THEY were asking. I don't have a problem with any of this. I once did... but time and patience allowed God to reveal His heart on the matter. And I don't mind sharing a few examples...

How does a God of love, peace and joy destroy all of humanity but one family in a flood and remain the God of love, peace and joy? Simple, really... when all of humanity turns their back on God and despises His ways and follows as their god these half man half angelic beings that were roaming and the earth AND because the bloodline that would lead to the redeeming Messiah needed to remain intact and uncorrupted... then God can do what He did without standing in opposition to His own character.

Same with Sodom... this wasn't a city full of homosexuals like I have heard it preached (although surely their sexual practices included it). No, the WEIGHT of why that city (and others around it) were destroyed was because they, too... had begin to seek angelic beings as sexual partners. We find this in Genesis 18 (the two men sent to Sodom) and in chapter 19 where we learn they are angels and you can go read the story. In Jude we find...

Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The word for strange is heteros, it means "other, different." They weren't seeking human flesh (neither male nor female) they were seeking DIFFERENT flesh... other worldly flesh, angels. What happened before the flood was about to happen again.

And finally we have Joshua going into city after city and laying waste to everyone. WHY? How does a God of love, peace and joy allow such destruction? Simple...the same reasons. When you study those cities that were destroyed you learn they all had giants... offspring of human women and angels.

Aside from that reason, YHWH (GOD) is the Creator of all things and when others take credit or are given credit or they pull people away from Him... He is zealous over what is rightly HIS... as HE IS THE CREATOR. It's His show... His planet, His universe, and His people.

 

[dreadnought]

Can anyone explain this in a way that gets to the route of the problem? I'm really struggling to believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God because of this:

"He who does not love does not know God, for God is love."—1 John 4:8

"Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up."—1 Corinthians 13:4

"For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."—Deuteronomy 4:24

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning."—James 1:17

The purpose of the Bible is to introduce you to the Lord. Maybe your focus should be on him, rather than whether or not the Bible is the inerrant word of God.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That's just as good as saying, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1)." Since faith is rewarded in the Bible, it has been easy for many to deceive us by claiming to be of God. My belief in the Bible has come from comparing it to other religions and histories, not by blind faith. Because of the Bible's typical consistencies and fulfilled prophecies, I believe it. But I'm not sure I believe the whole thing because I haven't read the whole thing, and passages like this one from Hebrews about faith make me more skeptical.

It sounds to me that you are not only young in the faith but young in age as well. Experience is the best 'convincer'. Stay with God and Jesus Christ. In time they will prove to be true in all respects.

 

[Par5]

I asked the originator of the thread what THEY were asking. I don't have a problem with any of this. I once did... but time and patience allowed God to reveal His heart on the matter. And I don't mind sharing a few examples...

How does a God of love, peace and joy destroy all of humanity but one family in a flood and remain the God of love, peace and joy? Simple, really... when all of humanity turns their back on God and despises His ways and follows as their god these half man half angelic beings that were roaming and the earth AND because the bloodline that would lead to the redeeming Messiah needed to remain intact and uncorrupted... then God can do what He did without standing in opposition to His own character.

Same with Sodom... this wasn't a city full of homosexuals like I have heard it preached (although surely their sexual practices included it). No, the WEIGHT of why that city (and others around it) were destroyed was because they, too... had begin to seek angelic beings as sexual partners. We find this in Genesis 18 (the two men sent to Sodom) and in chapter 19 where we learn they are angels and you can go read the story. In Jude we find...

Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The word for strange is heteros, it means "other, different." They weren't seeking human flesh (neither male nor female) they were seeking DIFFERENT flesh... other worldly flesh, angels. What happened before the flood was about to happen again.

And finally we have Joshua going into city after city and laying waste to everyone. WHY? How does a God of love, peace and joy allow such destruction? Simple...the same reasons. When you study those cities that were destroyed you learn they all had giants... offspring of human women and angels.

Aside from that reason, YHWH (GOD) is the Creator of all things and when others take credit or are given credit or they pull people away from Him... He is zealous over what is rightly HIS... as HE IS THE CREATOR. It's His show... His planet, His universe, and His people.

" When you study those cities that were destroyed you learn they all had giants... offspring of human women and angels."

I really don't understand how people can believe such things. All you needed to do was throw in a dragon or two and a wizard with a magic rod into the mix and you would have the material for a good fantasy movie.
However, you believe that your god was justified in destroying cities or sending his followers to kill every man woman and child and even in some cases the animals. What kind of person would be capable of carrying out a command to kill every man woman and child? What kind of person could go from child to child putting them and their mother to the sword? Would you be capable of such an act of barbarity even if you believed it was commanded by your god?
I have asked these questions of Christians before and never have I received an answer.
Your post ended with the usual old chestnut that your god can do what it likes.
That seems to give you the excuse not to think what such violence entailed.
I don't understand how people can believe in angels and giants, but I have even more difficulty understanding how people can believe that genocide can be justified.

 

[Tom 1]

Can anyone explain this in a way that gets to the route of the problem? I'm really struggling to believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God because of this:

"He who does not love does not know God, for God is love."—1 John 4:8

"Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up."—1 Corinthians 13:4

"For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."—Deuteronomy 4:24

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning."—James 1:17

Envy and jealousy have different meanings, e.g I could say that I am jealous of my wife’s attention, meaning that I wouldn’t like her to give more attention to another man than to me, for example. If I were to say I am envious of my wife’s attention, the meaning of that would be that I am envious of her ability to give her attention to something, to focus. In the verse quoted the meaning is envy in a destructive sense, envy of this or that person’s good looks, wealth - whatever a person might be tempted to feel envy about in a way that could be emotionally, spiritually damaging.

 

[WhoIsLikeGod?]

There is a difference between 'envy' and 'jealousy'

Envy is wanting what is not ours while Jealousy is a desire to keep what is ours.

We are Gods, made to worship and serve him only, so he is rightly jealous about our worship.

Thank you, I haven't had anyone explain it to me like that before.

 

[WhoIsLikeGod?]

" When you study those cities that were destroyed you learn they all had giants... offspring of human women and angels."

I really don't understand how people can believe such things. All you needed to do was throw in a dragon or two and a wizard with a magic rod into the mix and you would have the material for a good fantasy movie.
However, you believe that your god was justified in destroying cities or sending his followers to kill every man woman and child and even in some cases the animals. What kind of person would be capable of carrying out a command to kill every man woman and child? What kind of person could go from child to child putting them and their mother to the sword? Would you be capable of such an act of barbarity even if you believed it was commanded by your god?
I have asked these questions of Christians before and never have I received an answer.
Your post ended with the usual old chestnut that your god can do what it likes.
That seems to give you the excuse not to think what such violence entailed.
I don't understand how people can believe in angels and giants, but I have even more difficulty understanding how people can believe that genocide can be justified.

Actually the Israelites didn't entirely follow through with God's command. They left a lot of survivors. And those tribes, such as the Philistines, ended up attacking the Israelites later on.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Can anyone explain this in a way that gets to the route of the problem? I'm really struggling to believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God because of this:

"He who does not love does not know God, for God is love."—1 John 4:8

"Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up."—1 Corinthians 13:4

"For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."—Deuteronomy 4:24

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning."—James 1:17

Different ideas are being expressed. To try and offer some analogous ideas consider:

1) Let's say I was married, my wife would be perfectly justified to expect that I should be faithful to her and only her, for me to not go off and cheat on her with other women. That kind of jealousy in and of itself isn't a problem, it is perfectly reasonable that in our commitment to one another that she should expect me to be a faithful partner.

2) Let's say I see my friend's wife, and I want her, or I look at what my friend has and I want what he has, and I'm envious, jealous, and I esteem him in bitterness because of what he has and I don't have.

These are the different ideas being expressed here.

Love does not envy, that is, love does not see what my neighbor has and say, "I should have that, why do they have it and not me?" Because love instead says, "I am thankful that my neighbor is blessed, and I desire nothing but good things for them."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You can find plenty of verses in the bible that contradict the idea that "god is love."

Only if you don't understand what Godly love is. For example the death penalty actually shows love to both victim and perp. How far we've strayed from understanding Godly love.

 

[Par5]

Only if you don't understand what Godly love is. For example the death penalty actually shows love to both victim and perp. How far we've strayed from understanding Godly love.

Well, I obviously don't understand godly love. Killing someone is showing love? I just can't equate killing and love no matter how hard I try. If you consider that I have strayed from understanding godly love, I can't say I'm sorry.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Well, I obviously don't understand godly love. Killing someone is showing love? I just can't equate killing and love no matter how hard I try. If you consider that I have strayed from understanding godly love, I can't say I'm sorry.

How is putting killers out of their obvious misery and thus bringing closure to families and society not showing love?

When Christ returns he will spread Godly love in the form of the slaughter of the wicked. How do you reconcile that?

Godly love is, when boiled down, doing the right thing, which is often unpleasant but always necessary.

 

[Par5]

How is putting killers out of their obvious misery and thus bringing closure to families and society not showing love?

When Christ returns he will spread Godly love in the form of the slaughter of the wicked. How do you reconcile that?

Godly love is, when boiled down, doing the right thing, which is often unpleasant but always necessary.

I have no intention of attempting to reconcile something as ridiculous as that, but don't let me spoil your piece of religious fantasy. Come on, let's kill everyone. Way to go!

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I have no intention of attempting to reconcile something as ridiculous as that, but don't let me spoil your piece of religious fantasy. Come on, let's kill everyone. Way to go!

We just need to kill the really bad guys, speaking as a citizen, not as a Christian. As a Christian I have already "come out of her", but it's still my duty to offer advice from the other side.

 

[usexpat97]

Even notwithstanding the fact that being jealous, or possessive, of your spouse is not the same as being envious of them, there is still the matter that you are assuming that having a contradiction means it has errors. Even basic laws of physics have contradictions.