But what about their spirits? Luke 23:43 shows that the spirit goes to heaven or hell. Matt. 22:31-33 indicates that the dead are presently alive [as spirits].
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Apostles Creed - Jesus in Hell?
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People keep on telling me "verse so and so says such and such." But they don't reproduce the verse so that I and everyone else can see that verse so and so says no such thing.
Luke 23:43 says absolutely nothing about spirits. Here's the verse. "And He said to him, Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
Matthew 22:31-33 also is not talking about Spirits. He is talking about the resurrection of the dead. Here are the verses:
But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB? He is not the God of the dead but of the living. When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
People who are resurrected are alive. God is not the God of dead spirits. He is the God of living breathing people. All who worship Him now, and all who will worship Him after their resurrection.
And what about their spirits anyway? I was referring to the painting that Christos Anesti posted. The title on the painting is "H ANASTASIS, The Resurrection."
Luke 23:43 says absolutely nothing about spirits. Here's the verse. "And He said to him, Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
Matthew 22:31-33 also is not talking about Spirits. He is talking about the resurrection of the dead. Here are the verses:
But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB? He is not the God of the dead but of the living. When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
People who are resurrected are alive. God is not the God of dead spirits. He is the God of living breathing people. All who worship Him now, and all who will worship Him after their resurrection.
And what about their spirits anyway? I was referring to the painting that Christos Anesti posted. The title on the painting is "H ANASTASIS, The Resurrection."
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Then what's Paradise?
Jesus said "today". So if Jesus and the theif both went to the grave, and His resurrection was days later, then what is Luke 23:43 talking about?So does that mean Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were already resurrected before Jesus' resurrection?
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Then what's Paradise?
So does that mean Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were already resurrected before Jesus' resurrection?
These are good questions. I don't think that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were resurrected before Jesus because somewhere it says that Jesus was the firstfruits of resurrection. Is Jesus talking about the certainty of resurrection? Since A. I. and J. are certainly going to be resurrected and since God is outside of time, they are with Him now. From His perspective. IDK, I don't have an answer for everything.
Perhaps Luke 23:43 should be translated I tell the truth today, you will be with me in paradise. I don't know. JWs translate it that way, so I am hesitant to say that. Here's the greek:
καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ἀμήν σοι λέγω σήμερον μετ' ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ
and said him amen you I-tell today with me will-be in the paradise
Perhaps Jesus is saying that as a result of your trust today, you will be with me in paradise. I am hesitant to adopt a greek mindset (spirits go to hades) as a result of one verse.
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papaJP
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Good post. All will never agree and most wrangle over words and the definition of words.. Paul said that is a waste of time.
I would add that God the Father, Jesus the Christ and Savior and the Holy Spirit are everywhere. That Jesus went to those who had not had the opportunity to repent of unbelief and gave them the same choice He gives to all. As to a definition of where they resided is not as important as the truth that He gave them a chance to repent of unbelief and to be saved.
God bless all who seek the True God and the truth that He wants you to know. It will grow and change as you grow closer to being like Jesus until you die the first death.
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σύνδουλόν
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By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; - 1 Peter 3:19
The passage is not saying that Christ Jesus, while deceased and in the tomb (where "the Lord lay" (Matthew 28:6)), went and preached a sermon to "spirits". Jesus was dead, having suffered the death (the wages for sin, which was ours) for us all.
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: - 1 Peter 3:18
"Put to death in the flesh", and "quickend" ("made alive, to produce alive...to cause to live, make alive, give life...to restore life...springing up..."; Greek "zōopoieō" "ζῳοποιέω"; SC; TL, VE; , "in other words, to make living that which was before dead/without life") by the Holy Spirit again ("not left in Hell (grave)" Acts 2:31) into Immortal and Uncorruptible Flesh (Exodus 16:5,22-36; Acts 2:31)...
The word used here in the Greek for Hell is hades ᾅδης and means the general idea of the grave and death, the destination of men.
He (Jesus) was "quickened by the Spirit" (being raised by the Holy Spirit; Romans 8:11) and was raised unto immortality with "Flesh and Bones" (Luke 24:39) so that the disciples could "handle" Him and that He could "eat".
Jesus, who spake of the raising of the "Temple of His Body" (John 2:21; Revelation 21:22) was raised bodily (John 2:19,21, 20:12; Luke 24:3,6,39,43, etc) unto Immortality as the type of the Uncorrupted Manna in the Wilderness foretold (Exodus 16:5,22-25) and was not 'floating around' somewhere.
Let us look at the continuing text to see what it is truthfully speaking about:
By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; - 1 Peter 3:19
What is the "by which" this event ("went and preached") was being done? It is "by the Spirit" (being the Holy Spirit) in the very same previous verse (vs 18).
Who is the "He" that was doing this ("went and preached") by means of the Holy Spirit? It is Jesus ("Christ") which is also in the previous verse (vs 18). Jesus was preaching through the Holy Spirit whom He had sent.
So Christ Jesus was not floating around somewhere preaching a sermon while a "body" remained in the tomb, nay but rather Peter (using a comparison, of then (Noah's Day) and now (his (Peter's) day)) is saying that Christ Jesus through the Holy Spirit in the days of Noah was preaching the Gospel of Salvation (by Noah, the "preacher of righteousness") to the living humans that were then ("in the days of Noah") "disobedient". The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts of Sin, Judgment and Righteousness (John 16:8), which is why even King David prayed after He had sinned and was "disobedient" ("Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy Holy Spirit from me." Psalms 51:11).
Who are now these "spirits in prison" that were being preached unto? They were the living human beings (souls as defined by Genesis 2:7 and throughout) who were in the bonds of iniquity, slaves of sin, bondage of disobedience and bound to Sin and Satan as the Bible so defines:
"O LORD, truly I (am) thy servant; I (am) thy servant, (and) the son of thine handmaid: thou hast loosed my bonds." - Psalms 116:16
"Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me." - Psalms 142:7
"To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, (and) them that sit in darkness out of the prison house." - Isaiah 42:7
"the Spirit of the Lord God (is) upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; He hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to (them that are) bound;" - Isaiah 61:1
"the Spirit of the Lord (is) upon me, because He hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent me to Heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised," - Luke 4:18
"And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?" - Luke 13:16
"For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and (in) the bond of iniquity." - Acts 8:23
Surely, those that Jesus Himself preached to in His 3 1/2 year ministry were not "deceased or departed, nor some immortal incorporeal", but were very much physically alive ("mortal flesh") and held in the bondage to sin and the devil.
Looking further at the context and continuing onward:
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 1 Peter 3:20
Who are the "which"? they are the "spirits in prison" in the previous verse (verse 19), which by the text themselves declare are living people in the bonds of sin and disobedience.
When was this "preaching" ("preached") to these "spirits in prison" done according to the context? It was done to those who were "...disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the Ark was a preparing...". This was done many years before Christ Jesus was born as a man.
As scripture says, the Gospel was also preached in the "days of Noah" (for 120 years, Genesis 6:3). the "disobedient" were the living disobedient and transgressing human beings who did not board the Ark, but rather continued to rebel and ignore the warnings that God (Jesus through the Holy Spirit) had given through Noah ("preacher of Righteousness"). It was not preached to angels, nor devils, nor immortal incorporeal forms, but rather it was preached to "man" (Genesis 6:3,5-7), who was "flesh" (Genesis 6:12-13,17), See also (Job 22:15-16).
Peter is likening that "preachement" done then
"the like figure"; in the past to physically living humans and people), to the "preachment" done now (1 Peter 3:21), and their "then" baptism ("wherein 8 souls were saved by water") in "the days of Noah", and He (Peter) is comparing it to the Baptism now offered.The Holy Spirit worked to convict of Sin then (through the preaching of Enoch, Methuselah, Noah), as He does now (through Christians), but only 8 humans were saved then, as no one else chose to repent and obey and to get into the Ark (the only means of salvation) except Noah and his Family and so today the Holy Spirit is convicting the whole world of "sin, judgment and righteousness" (John 16:8).
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