fatboys said:
FB: Because of the times, the apostles did not have a full quorum and could not act for the whole of the church unless there was a full quorum. In our church the first Presidency is made up of the Prophet and his councilors.
I always stand amazed at things I hear like the above. The reason that I stand amazed is because of those two missionaries who told me, many, many years ago, that the LDS church was a "restoration" of the Biblical Church. Of course, that immediately brings forward many issues. First and foremost is the lack of confidence, by the LDS church, in the Bible. How, or better yet, why would anyone want to restore an organization presumedly based on a faulty document, the Bible? It is so ingrained into the LDS cooperate mind that it is included in your creedal
Articles of Faith (#8).
Be that as it may, the above statement by fatboys claims that Jesus Christ could not proclaim any prophcies, or teachings or doctrine because there were only twelve apostles or in his words, "did not have a full quorum," there were no "councilors"
[sic], and there was no "president." So now the Latter-day Saints church, with the emphasis on Latter-day which will be explained in a moment, in their effort to invent an organization that resembled the Church that Jesus Christ created and was the chief cornerstone of, ended up with fourteen "councilors"
[sic]. Twelve in the quorum, two "councilors"
[sic], and the president of the church. This, my friends, is not a restoration, it is an invention or facsimile of the original church. That is why believers of the Church of the Lamb are "former-day" Saints. Saints in mold as Thomas, Barnabus, Timothy, Eunice, Tychicus, Matthew, Paul and on and on.
Try as I may, I cannot find ANY instances in the Bible of where the prophets of old had to wait for his counselors or quorum and then the semi-annual conference to proclaim that Ninevah was going to be destroyed, for example. Now again, this
could be one of those "plain and precious things" that were deliberately removed from the Bible to deceive people
fatboys said:
If the Lord wants to give us revelation, it would go through the prophet first, the councilors would pray about it and if they feel the same it is brought before the quorum which does the same thing. When a vacancy happens, the same process happens. At the time of the apostles, they were killed, and travel was very slow, and many times they were not accepted and put in prison. All who were available could make descions but when they finally were killed off that left no one with the same power as the apostles.
This is a blatant example of the speculation need to justify a need for a "restoration." The Old Testament prophets were sometimes killed and sometimes lived to be quite old. Our "Prophet," Savior, Redeemer, Son of God, was executed, resurrected and now leads His church. He replaced the prophets of old and be came our High Priest. Read Hebrews 1:1-2. Please be sure to read verse two. The reason I say that is because those two nice missionary boys had me read only verse one for a proof text to claimed the need for a present day prophet. It reads like this: New Testament | Hebrews 1:1-2 (KJV) Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.
In today's English I'll share from the NASB for clarification:
Hebrews 1:1-2. 1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
fatboys said:
Apostles can call other apostles as a group. Bishops were never meant to be a group or to be in a council to decide for the whole of the church. Although they did hold the priesthood, they did not have the power to call other bishops. They had the power to call those of a lesser office, but that is it.
The apostles, not the elders, were and are meant to be missionaries. The Greek word for apostle is apostello, a couple of derivatives are apostole meaning dispatching or sending forth or apostolos meaning one sent. The Greek apostello basically means to be sent out on a certain mission such as to preach as in Mark 3:14 or Luke 9:2. In no place is apostle considered to be part of the local church or heirarchy. Elders, on the other hand, were part of the presbytery which refers to a council of elders in a certain area and are equivalent to Bishops. The Elders and Bishops tended to the affairs of the Church. The Elders were generally called that and venerated because of their age, whereas, the Bishops (episkopoi) were involved in the work and
authority of the office. So when two young LDS missionaries knock on your door, ask if they are apostles. Their name tags will say that they are Elders. Again, an attempt to say that they are like the Biblical church of the 1st century. Wrong! They don't even have the offices correct.
FB: said:
This is how the priesthood and callings were passed on. One has to have the proper authority. I guess what many misunderstand is that you have to have this authority to believe in Jesus Christ and gain salvation. That is false. One has to believe in Christ, obey the laws of God and repent and be baptised. As for the lineage the person ordaining you to be an Elder sometimes would give their priesthood lineage which the importance of it is that it follows it back to Jesus Christ because Christ gave this authority to Peter, James and John. Notice that it was just not Peter or James or John, it was all three together, where as the Aaronic Priesthood was given by John the Baptist.
The writer of the Book of Hebrews is very clear that there was no longer a need for the Levitical priesthood since Jesus Christ became the sacrifice for our sins for all time. He, also, is now our High Priest forever. It is Jesus, not man, who acts in our stead and declares us clean. It is Jesus Christ who receives our tithes and offerings. Not necesarily an organization that doesn't have to account to the members of the church. Do you think that our High Priest will require us to account for our tithes, whereby we can enter into a temple that is of no effect? When Jesus died, the veil was torn in two and we had access to the holy of holies (Matthew 27:51). We had no need for the tribe of Levi. Through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ we have direct access to God. We need only faith in Jesus Christ, our High Priest, to reside with God for eternity. Amen? Amen!
FB: said:
I think you left the church to soon.
I think I was too thick headed and wanted it so much to be true that I stayed way, way too long. Especially after the Holy Spirit revealed to me that I had made a colossal mistake that had dire eternal consequences.
Sven
