Apostasy

[Xeno.of.athens]

Thank you. I think the church should treat them as we do other non-believers. Pray and love them as Christ would with the hope they will return. Try to keep or rebuild relationships. I am not for cutting off all communication or giving up on them, though obviously sacraments and some parts of church life may not be open to them.

Interesting view; what do you make of Hebrews 6:4-8?

 

[fhansen]

Agreed, the Five Solas contain some errors that go to the heart of Christian faith and could be considered a preparation for apostasy but the dictionary definition of apostasy is

Definition of apostasy
1: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith​

abandoning the Catholic Christian faith to take up some other religious system can, strictly speaking, be called apostasy.

Just to add, the Catholic Church, for its part, considers most non-Catholic Christians to be separated but still part of the larger body, however imperfectly joined, still part of the Church that the Reformers broke away from -whether they acknowledge that fact or not, of course. Beliefs that may have originally been considered heresy and actions that were apostate in nature can't be held against those who've been living under those things, who received them over generations, and which have therefore become traditions for them.

 

[The Liturgist]

Could one be apostate by becoming, say, one of Jehovah's witnesses?

If someone joins a church which is not Christian according to the very relaxed Nicene definition CF.com uses, and they are doctrinally aware of the problem, it is possible they have apostatized, but more likely they have been lead into a heresy.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

If someone joins a church which is not Christian according to the very relaxed Nicene definition CF.com uses, and they are doctrinally aware of the problem, it is possible they have apostatized, but more likely they have been lead into a heresy.

It is useful to distinguish between heresy and being a heretic just as it is useful to distinguish between apostasy and becoming an apostate. Heresy is an erroneous doctrine while a heretic is one who knowingly departs from the faith to embrace heresy. Apostasy is the abandonment of the faith and adoption of another different faith or no faith, while an apostate is one who knowingly abandons the faith and adopts another or none. The noun form applies to a real person and implies the knowing departure from the faith.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Agreed, the Five Solas contain some errors that go to the heart of Christian faith and could be considered a preparation for apostasy but the dictionary definition of apostasy is

Definition of apostasy
1: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith​

abandoning the Catholic Christian faith to take up some other religious system can, strictly speaking, be called apostasy.

you could substitute, Catholic Christian with Jewish, or Muslim, or Buddhist or What ever other religion

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

you could substitute, Catholic Christian with Jewish, or Muslim, or Buddhist or What ever other religion

Yes, that could be done. If religion were an indifferent matter one might decide to do what you suggest and substitute any system of mythic belief for another with impunity. Is religion a matter of indifference and is Christianity a mythic system of belief that is no more or less important than any other?

 

[HARK!]

MOD HAT ON

Just a friendly reminder to keep posts kind, and in a Christian spirit"

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Freth]

SDA believe that the falling away (apostasy) is apostate Protestantism. Apostate Protestantism consists of those Protestant Christian organizations that align with the beast and fall away from the sure word of God. This alignment/allegiance then becomes the catalyst for the implementation of the mark of the beast; which asserts its control over buying/selling and ultimately a death decree for those who will not worship the beast and his image.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

SDA believe that the falling away (apostasy) is apostate Protestantism. Apostate Protestantism consists of those Protestant Christian organizations that align with the beast and fall away from the sure word of God. This alignment/allegiance then becomes the catalyst for the implementation of the mark of the beast; which asserts its control over buying/selling and ultimately a death decree for those who will not worship the beast and his image.

Interesting theology.

How does an individual become an apostate?

 

[Freth]

Interesting theology.

How does an individual become an apostate?

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 "a falling away"

Strong's G646

apostasia: to forsake; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.​

Google Dictionary

apostasy: the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief.
​

Merriam-Webster

1: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith
2: abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection​

 

[WolfGate]

Interesting view; what do you make of Hebrews 6:4-8?

I also see Luke 15:11-32, Jesus’ parable of the prodigal son. Both the lesson at that parable and warning from Hebrews are true, so it is clear that there are some cases where someone leaves the faith and returns and some where they do not. We cannot see the difference in the heart of a person, so I believe we should treat everyone as if they may return:

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I also see Luke 15:11-32, Jesus’ parable of the prodigal son. Both the lesson at that parable and warning from Hebrews are true, so it is clear that there are some cases where someone leaves the faith and returns and some where they do not. We cannot see the difference in the heart of a person, so I believe we should treat everyone as if they may return:

What do the scriptures teach you about how to relate to (or not relate to) one who is apostate?

 

[fhansen]

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 "a falling away"

Strong's G646

apostasia: to forsake; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.​

Google Dictionary

apostasy: the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief.
​

Merriam-Webster

1: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith
2: abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection​

Yes, and if one looks seriously for themselves into the teachings of the ancient churches and ECFs we find that the most basic understanding on what it means to become right in the eyes of God and remain there as we work out our salvation together with Him is the same today as it was back then.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I also see Luke 15:11-32, Jesus’ parable of the prodigal son. Both the lesson at that parable and warning from Hebrews are true, so it is clear that there are some cases where someone leaves the faith and returns and some where they do not. We cannot see the difference in the heart of a person, so I believe we should treat everyone as if they may return:

Do you believe that the parable of a man who had two sons is about apostasy?

A man who had two sons
11Jesus went on to say, “There was once a man who had two sons. 12The younger one said to him, ‘Father, give me my share of the property now.’ So the man divided his property between his two sons. 13After a few days the younger son sold his part of the property and left home with the money. He went to a country far away, where he wasted his money in reckless living. 14He spent everything he had. Then a severe famine spread over that country, and he was left without a thing. 15So he went to work for one of the citizens of that country, who sent him out to his farm to take care of the pigs. 16He wished he could fill himself with the bean pods the pigs ate, but no one gave him anything to eat. 17At last he came to his senses and said, ‘All my father's hired workers have more than they can eat, and here I am about to starve! 18I will get up and go to my father and say, Father, I have sinned against God and against you. 19I am no longer fit to be called your son; treat me as one of your hired workers.’ 20So he got up and started back to his father.
“He was still a long way from home when his father saw him; his heart was filled with pity, and he ran, threw his arms round his son, and kissed him. 21‘Father,’ the son said, ‘I have sinned against God and against you. I am no longer fit to be called your son.’ 22But the father called his servants. ‘Hurry!’ he said. ‘Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and shoes on his feet. 23Then go and get the prize calf and kill it, and let us celebrate with a feast! 24For this son of mine was dead, but now he is alive; he was lost, but now he has been found.’ And so the feasting began.
25 “In the meantime the elder son was out in the field. On his way back, when he came close to the house, he heard the music and dancing. 26So he called one of the servants and asked him, ‘What's going on?’ 27‘Your brother has come back home,’ the servant answered, ‘and your father has killed the prize calf, because he got him back safe and sound.’
28 “The elder brother was so angry that he would not go into the house; so his father came out and begged him to come in. 29But he answered his father, ‘Look, all these years I have worked for you like a slave, and I have never disobeyed your orders. What have you given me? Not even a goat for me to have a feast with my friends! 30But this son of yours wasted all your property on prostitutes, and when he comes back home, you kill the prize calf for him!’ 31‘My son,’ the father answered, ‘you are always here with me, and everything I have is yours. 32But we had to celebrate and be happy, because your brother was dead, but now he is alive; he was lost, but now he has been found.’ ”​

The story is about a man who's younger son squandered his inheritance and whose older son stayed at home keeping his inheritance intact. I guess the younger son leaving could be treated as a kind of "apostasy" if apostasy means only "leaving".

 

[WolfGate]

Do you believe that the parable of a man who had two sons is about apostasy?

A man who had two sons
11Jesus went on to say, “There was once a man who had two sons. 12The younger one said to him, ‘Father, give me my share of the property now.’ So the man divided his property between his two sons. 13After a few days the younger son sold his part of the property and left home with the money. He went to a country far away, where he wasted his money in reckless living. 14He spent everything he had. Then a severe famine spread over that country, and he was left without a thing. 15So he went to work for one of the citizens of that country, who sent him out to his farm to take care of the pigs. 16He wished he could fill himself with the bean pods the pigs ate, but no one gave him anything to eat. 17At last he came to his senses and said, ‘All my father's hired workers have more than they can eat, and here I am about to starve! 18I will get up and go to my father and say, Father, I have sinned against God and against you. 19I am no longer fit to be called your son; treat me as one of your hired workers.’ 20So he got up and started back to his father.
“He was still a long way from home when his father saw him; his heart was filled with pity, and he ran, threw his arms round his son, and kissed him. 21‘Father,’ the son said, ‘I have sinned against God and against you. I am no longer fit to be called your son.’ 22But the father called his servants. ‘Hurry!’ he said. ‘Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and shoes on his feet. 23Then go and get the prize calf and kill it, and let us celebrate with a feast! 24For this son of mine was dead, but now he is alive; he was lost, but now he has been found.’ And so the feasting began.
25 “In the meantime the elder son was out in the field. On his way back, when he came close to the house, he heard the music and dancing. 26So he called one of the servants and asked him, ‘What's going on?’ 27‘Your brother has come back home,’ the servant answered, ‘and your father has killed the prize calf, because he got him back safe and sound.’
28 “The elder brother was so angry that he would not go into the house; so his father came out and begged him to come in. 29But he answered his father, ‘Look, all these years I have worked for you like a slave, and I have never disobeyed your orders. What have you given me? Not even a goat for me to have a feast with my friends! 30But this son of yours wasted all your property on prostitutes, and when he comes back home, you kill the prize calf for him!’ 31‘My son,’ the father answered, ‘you are always here with me, and everything I have is yours. 32But we had to celebrate and be happy, because your brother was dead, but now he is alive; he was lost, but now he has been found.’ ”​

The story is about a man who's younger son squandered his inheritance and whose older son stayed at home keeping his inheritance intact. I guess the younger son leaving could be treated as a kind of "apostasy" if apostasy means only "leaving".

Jesus’ parables teach truth and are not meant to be taken as literally only applicable to the specific situation covered. Yes, I think the truth of the parable of father welcoming the son who left and came back is that our Father will also welcome back those who leave and repent and return.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Jesus’ parables teach truth and are not meant to be taken as literally only applicable to the specific situation covered. Yes, I think the truth of the parable of father welcoming the son who left and came back is that our Father will also welcome back those who leave and repent and return.

The younger son's departure and return are treated as one who was lost being found and one who was dead being alive. It is part of the theme of "more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who need no repentance." On the other hand, the people in mind in Hebrews 6:4-8 appear to be apostates whose souls are in serious danger.

Hebrews 6:4For how can those who abandon their faith be brought back to repent again? They were once in God's light; they tasted heaven's gift and received their share of the Holy Spirit; 5they knew from experience that God's word is good, and they had felt the powers of the coming age. 6And then they abandoned their faith! It is impossible to bring them back to repent again, because they are again crucifying the Son of God and exposing him to public shame.
7God blesses the soil which drinks in the rain that often falls on it and which grows plants that are useful to those for whom it is cultivated. 8But if it grows thorns and weeds, it is worth nothing; it is in danger of being cursed by God and will be destroyed by fire.​