ANZAC Day...what does it mean to you...will you be doing anything to commemorate it ?

[tgg]

ANZAC diggers labelled 'bludgers, thieves'

 

[tgg]

If you've got contrary views to soldiering, ANZAC day and whatever else, you are well entitled to it, but keep it out of this thread, you can rant and rave elsewhere. Jesus had nothing against the military, and people parading with this view are delusional. He told a Roman soldier to be happy with his wages. Would he have told a prostitute to be happy with her wages? Unlikely. War is an inevitable part of life, it always has been and it will be for the foreseeable future. You can construct whatever candy views you want on how we must avoid it and how evil it is whilst all the whilst forgetting your freedom to make nonsensical comments is bought by the servicemen and women who have served and presently do serve, and in the next 50 years this will be a big thing as China starts flexing its military might.

Was in the infantry reserves for a while, so the spirit of ANZAC is a big thing for me, it means slightly different things to different people. I guess for me it means the commemoration of course, but generally to push hard and persevere in whatever I do. A live well lived in service whether militarily or not I guess is a way to show that appreciation of what was done a long time ago.

There are better ways of solving problems than violence and killing people indiscriminately. Look at how the Bonobo chimps solve theirs - we are related to them.

Though sometimes violence is necessary to stop despots like Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Bin Laden, Colonel Gaddafi and Pol Pot from bringing the world to ruin. They reap what they sow.

 

[Tenebrae]

I know I'm going to take a hammering for this post...so go ahead...

Then why say it. If you are saying something you know will upset people, why say it, unless you like upsetting people?

But why is it that countries tend to honor people that have gone into war???

irrespective of what they fought for, freedom, liberty, oil, money, etc...

for the above reasons is that why. They fought so that we could be free, so we could choose our own governments, so we could choose to go to chuch without fear of persecution, so we could live our lives without fear of being killed for religious choice, shoe size etc

WAR is never the answer!, making an "excuse" to kill another human being for whatever reason is not an excuse!!!!!

Yea, and your point is, why does not mean we shouldn't honour the efforts of the people who went before us, who fought to give us better lives? We honour sports stars, movie stars etc, and I dont know about you, I tend to think the efforts of the men and women who fought to ensure we could live better lives, who stood up against the evils of the germans and japanese is certainly worth being honoured

I've lived in many countries, I have friends who have fought against Australia in the past, I've lived in countries in which battled current Western countries,
Some of my friends would call the diggers who have died their enemies, and how Australians invaded their country etc, etc...

I'm just curious though..., from the Christian perspective...
Why are we remembering/honoring "The sins of our friends/relative/brothers"?

PS: I have relatives that have died in wars, although I remember them.
I will never honor them for going to WAR, whatever cause that is.

Then honour them for the difference they have made in our lives. Honour them for the fact that you can live in a country, have free choice of government, dont have to worry about fear of persecution or death due to your religon

 

[TheDag]

ANZAC diggers labelled 'bludgers, thieves'

The RSL lost their right to complain in my opinion when they abandoned the very people they were supposed to stick up for. They refused to stick up for vietnam vets because they didn't want them in their clubs.

 

[Born to Watch]

Then why say it. If you are saying something you know will upset people, why say it, unless you like upsetting people?
for the above reasons is that why. They fought so that we could be free, so we could choose our own governments, so we could choose to go to chuch without fear of persecution, so we could live our lives without fear of being killed for religious choice, shoe size etc
Yea, and your point is, why does not mean we shouldn't honour the efforts of the people who went before us, who fought to give us better lives? We honour sports stars, movie stars etc, and I dont know about you, I tend to think the efforts of the men and women who fought to ensure we could live better lives, who stood up against the evils of the germans and japanese is certainly worth being honoured
Then honour them for the difference they have made in our lives. Honour them for the fact that you can live in a country, have free choice of government, dont have to worry about fear of persecution or death due to your religon

I think DMs questions are valid and need to be expressed and answered, both from a secular and Christian perspective.

I have held the same view at times to some degree,

We are to weep and mourn with those who have sadness, its a Christian teaching.

I think the question as well as all the answers given are productive

 

[TheDag]

Yea, and your point is, why does not mean we shouldn't honour the efforts of the people who went before us, who fought to give us better lives?

if that is what they fought for then I will honour them. however almost all people i know who have joined the forces did so simply so they could fire a gun. there were some who fell for the propaganda with the vietnam war thinking if we didn't fight then communism would take over the world. Well we lost the war and communism didn't take over the world did it!

We honour sports stars, movie stars etc, and I dont know about you, I tend to think the efforts of the men and women who fought to ensure we could live better lives, who stood up against the evils of the germans and japanese is certainly worth being honoured

You might but I don't. That is I don't honour sports stars, movie stars or musicians etc. Oh yes the evils of the germans. Now who was it that created a situation that allowed hitler to come to power? Oh yeah thats right the allies! Do you know why Japan joined world war 2? i bet if you were the victim of that then you would want something done as well. Indeed you would not be able to use the internet if this country had been a victim like japan was.

 

[DarkMonk]

Then why say it. If you are saying something you know will upset people, why say it, unless you like upsetting people?

Sometimes the truth is confronting you know..., it's hard for people to accept the truth at sometimes or a complete different way of thinking.

for the above reasons is that why. They fought so that we could be free, so we could choose our own governments, so we could choose to go to chuch without fear of persecution, so we could live our lives without fear of being killed for religious choice, shoe size etc

Are those excuses???
From the Christian perspective...that is...

Does GOD asks us to fight for freedom? NO,
Does GOD asks us to fight for democracy? NO,Because Christian faith, And the way GOD does things are not anywhere democratic.
Does GOD asks us to not to fear persecution?NO, He basically says You will be persecuted because you're Christian.

So all the reasons you mentioned, the reasons we GO to war or for a matter of fact any countries go to war is because WE want to fight for something WE WANT and not what GOD is asking us to fight war.

There is nothing in the bible that asks us to go to WAR.

Yea, and your point is, why does not mean we shouldn't honour the efforts of the people who went before us, who fought to give us better lives? We honour sports stars, movie stars etc, and I dont know about you, I tend to think the efforts of the men and women who fought to ensure we could live better lives, who stood up against the evils of the germans and japanese is certainly worth being honoured

So you honor people who kill other people so you can have a better life?
a pretty car? a nice house? a nice job???

What about the WAR in Afghanistan? against that Taliban who the West is going to accept as a party?
What about the Korean War? What about the Vietnam War?
What about Iraq?
What about the innocent children and women our "Heroes" killed? oh are they collateral damage? causalities of war???

Then honour them for the difference they have made in our lives. Honour them for the fact that you can live in a country, have free choice of government, dont have to worry about fear of persecution or death due to your religon

I don't fear persecution or death because of my Faith, because if you've read the Revelations chapter..., it's only a matter of time that All Christians will be persecuted and even face death because of their faith.

My point is...
I lived in many countries, I have lots of friends internationally...

My question is, we use Anzac day to remember our so called Heroes that went to war for our own benefits as a country. And they've fought against evil or enemies??

Let me tell you that I have friends on both sides of the war, and to them, our Heroes are the evil ones, and the enemy.

So who is right, who is wrong??? War is wrong, and so both sides are wrong.

Without GOD and faith, we're bound to kill each other. So again,
explain me again, why do we honor people that have gone to war again?
We honor them because they go and fight so I can live better???
financially? peacefully?

Is that what Christian faith teach us? Harm others for our own benefit and honor them later?

 

[Born to Watch]

We honour them as Christians because God commanded us

Paul’s Use of His Freedom

19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

 

[HakeemSupreme]

Then honour them for the difference they have made in our lives. Honour them for the fact that you can live in a country, have free choice of government, dont have to worry about fear of persecution or death due to your religon

Aside from WWII diggers none of them did any of that.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

The bible shows how God has frequently told people to go to war. How can you all be so sure he is not doing so now?

 

[TrutherAU]

You can construct whatever candy views you want on how we must avoid it and how evil it is whilst all the whilst forgetting your freedom to make nonsensical comments is bought by the servicemen and women who have served and presently do serve, and in the next 50 years this will be a big thing as China starts flexing its military might.

Yes well nonsensicial as these comments might seem its only as non sensical as the fact that Australia now lets many of these some pples immigrate and study here in ever increasing numbers and most of all invest heavy capital here.
The paradoxes in Australias direction in the past 80 yrs (and no not talking about refugees)ago can only have the masonic Grand Arichitects design to them, note i said Grand Architect not Gods the christian God!.
No doubt many old diggers do not approve of Australias present direction but they have been duped big time all along becasue Australias present state of being proves there efforts were all in vain!.
However if some enjoyed fighting for the sake of killing then perhaps for some it was well worth it, not for the majority though only for gun ho masonic psychos!.

 

[Born to Watch]

The bible shows how God has frequently told people to go to war. How can you all be so sure he is not doing so now?

You still cant differentiate between Judaism and Christianity???

 

[Bungle_Bear]

You still cant differentiate between Judaism and Christianity???

Very incisive way to avoid the question.

Are you sure God hasn't ordered any of the wars we remember?

 

[Tenebrae]

Sometimes the truth is confronting you know..., it's hard for people to accept the truth at sometimes or a complete different way of thinking.

And sometimes people like to stir for the sake of it. When someone says I know I'm going to upset people but I'll open my mouth anyway, I tend to put them in that catergory

Are those excuses???
From the Christian perspective...that is...

You must have missed the pagan faith icon. I dont do christian

Does GOD asks us to fight for freedom? NO,
Does GOD asks us to fight for democracy? NO,Because Christian faith, And the way GOD does things are not anywhere democratic.

I seem to recall that Jesus was big on fighting injustice, he railed against the money changers in the temple, and regularly called the pharisees on their attitudes and practices. I also recall Jesus saying something about feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and seeking justice for the impressed

Are you suggesting that if christian come across an example like in Rwanda, when close to 1 million people were murdered, they should simply walk away and do nothing because war is bad

Does GOD asks us to not to fear persecution?NO, He basically says You will be persecuted because you're Christian.

So all the reasons you mentioned, the reasons we GO to war or for a matter of fact any countries go to war is because WE want to fight for something WE WANT and not what GOD is asking us to fight war.

There is nothing in the bible that asks us to go to WAR.

There is something in the bible that asks christians to stand up against injustice.

And yo might want to mention that to the proponents of the new apostolic reformation movement, who believe christians should be taking control over the world by any means possible

So you honor people who kill other people so you can have a better life?
a pretty car? a nice house? a nice job???

That might be your interest

I was thinking more along the lines of not being stoned because of my sexual orientation, or not being drowned because of my faith.

What about the WAR in Afghanistan? against that Taliban who the West is going to accept as a party?
What about the Korean War? What about the Vietnam War?
What about Iraq?
What about the innocent children and women our "Heroes" killed? oh are they collateral damage? causalities of war???

I dont know why you are treating me like I'm some sort of war proponent. I hate war, and I think we forget the atrocities of the past much too easily. That said, I believe that the sacrifices of my ancestors are worth remembering, so hopefully those mistakes can be prevented from repeating

I don't fear persecution or death because of my Faith, because if you've read the Revelations chapter..., it's only a matter of time that All Christians will be persecuted and even face death because of their faith.

My point is...
I lived in many countries, I have lots of friends internationally...

My question is, we use Anzac day to remember our so called Heroes that went to war for our own benefits as a country. And they've fought against evil or enemies??

Let me tell you that I have friends on both sides of the war, and to them, our Heroes are the evil ones, and the enemy.

So who is right, who is wrong??? War is wrong, and so both sides are wrong.

Without GOD and faith, we're bound to kill each other. So again,
explain me again, why do we honor people that have gone to war again?
We honor them because they go and fight so I can live better???
financially? peacefully?

Is that what Christian faith teach us? Harm others for our own benefit and honor them later?

People still kill people with god and faith, go read your history books. stop acting like christians are the only ones with a monopoly on pacifism.

 

[TheDag]

I seem to recall that Jesus was big on fighting injustice, he railed against the money changers in the temple, and regularly called the pharisees on their attitudes and practices. I also recall Jesus saying something about feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and seeking justice for the impressed

and that is why he lead a military revolution against the roman occupiers like many wanted him to. Oh wait he didn't! So there is still a difference between doing those things and going to war. if we look at the examples you gave then how many times did he use aggression rather than challenge people? Once. Hardly a compelling case for going to war. Of course if we use that logic then going to world war 1 was definitely wrong because that all started with a case of racism which led to assasination which caused two countries to go to war. However because others agreed to help when one country was in trouble everyone joined in. Not really standing up for the oppressed.

 

[Tenebrae]

and that is why he lead a military revolution against the roman occupiers like many wanted him to. Oh wait he didn't!

Did I ever say he did?

So there is still a difference between doing those things and going to war. if we look at the examples you gave then how many times did he use aggression rather than challenge people? Once. Hardly a compelling case for going to war. Of course if we use that logic then going to world war 1 was definitely wrong because that all started with a case of racism which led to assasination which caused two countries to go to war. However because others agreed to help when one country was in trouble everyone joined in. Not really standing up for the oppressed.

How about some basic reading comprehension, so you can read what I actually wrote, as opposed to what you think I wrote

I will say this again slowly so hopefully you can understand me this time

I HATE WAR, I dont think any of the recent wars were started over a genuine desire to seek justice for oppressed people, they are about oil, and advancing the causes of the rich and wealthy

I think we go off to war much to quickly, look at GW bush marching into Iraq, at the slightest sign of sadam hussein beating his chest, and over alleged weapons of mass destruction



That said, i think what our ancestors went through is worth remembering, so if nothing else, it may stop people making the same mistakes in the future.Then again, seeing how quickly the west forgets about what has passed, and how keen they are to go off to war again, suggests I'm far too optimistic about people in general

That said, I believe that we have a moral obligation to stand up against injustice and abuse, look at the genocide in Dafur, Rwanda, Bosnia, the west sat on its hands while millions of people were killed then again those countries didnt have anything to offer the big superpowers. Guns are an easy out. Look at some of the more memorable characters in history, Ghandi, Martin luther king, all advocated non violent resistance.

 

[TheDag]

Did I ever say he did?

Yes it was implied. If one ignores the context of the conversation then the implication is not there. The claim was made that we go to war for certain reasons. The response was God does not ask us to fight for those things. you then responded with your comment. So the context is clearly talking about going to war. Your then use of but Jesus said this as a response to those comments makes it implied. That is simple comprehension.

That said, i think what our ancestors went through is worth remembering, so if nothing else, it may stop people making the same mistakes in the future.Then again, seeing how quickly the west forgets about what has passed, and how keen they are to go off to war again, suggests I'm far too optimistic about people in general

however remembering and honouring are two very different things. I have not seen one person argue here that we should not remember.

 

[Born to Watch]

Very incisive way to avoid the question.

Are you sure God hasn't ordered any of the wars we remember?

If I say God is sovereign does that answer your question, God allows but is not the author of sin.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

If I say God is sovereign does that answer your question,

No it doesn't.

God allows but is not the author of sin.

Yet he did exactly that several times in OT. Better still, he ordered that non-combattants be slaughtered too. Are you going to say again that OT is somehow irrelevant and not part of Christianity?

The point I'm trying to make is that you are so sure your God, who has a track record of instigating wars, has changed his style and become pacifist. Yet that requires you to know God's mind and purpose - and that's one BIG claim.

 

[DarkMonk]

And sometimes people like to stir for the sake of it. When someone says I know I'm going to upset people but I'll open my mouth anyway, I tend to put them in that catergory

Why do you find it upsetting for someone to say...
"We shouldn't honor people who have gone to war"

You must have missed the pagan faith icon. I dont do christian

Irrespective of your faith, Christians and non-Christians...
We all going to be judged under the same GOD.
It's not an argument but a fact.

I seem to recall that Jesus was big on fighting injustice, he railed against the money changers in the temple, and regularly called the pharisees on their attitudes and practices. I also recall Jesus saying something about feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and seeking justice for the impressed

Seeking Justice and fighting injustice doesn't mean killing others.
Did Jesus ever kill anyway? Did Jesus went and killed those who opposed him?
He condemned them, but didn't kill them.

Are you suggesting that if christian come across an example like in Rwanda, when close to 1 million people were murdered, they should simply walk away and do nothing because war is bad

I can't answer that question as what exactly Christians should do at the moment, But what I can tell you is that killing in retaliation and for revenge is not the teaching of the bible.

There is something in the bible that asks christians to stand up against injustice.

standing up against injustice is not loading a gun or missile to shoot or bomb someone is it?

And yo might want to mention that to the proponents of the new apostolic reformation movement, who believe christians should be taking control over the world by any means possible

Not every movement you see and hear, represent what GOD wants us to do.
Bible clearly clearly says that (Revelations book), Christians will be a minority in the future, and that they will all suffer under false faiths and false prophets. And then we will see the 2nd coming of Jesus.

I was thinking more along the lines of not being stoned because of my sexual orientation, or not being drowned because of my faith.

Whether you like it or not, and It's not your choice. It's not Christians or other people who will do the ultimate judging but Jesus.
You can do whatever you want, have whatever sexual orientation, believe in a elephant with 6 legs if you want to.

But ultimately one day, you and me we will all have to pay for our SINs.
Because it's not what you think it's right, It's what GOD thinks it's right or wrong.

I dont know why you are treating me like I'm some sort of war proponent. I hate war, and I think we forget the atrocities of the past much too easily. That said, I believe that the sacrifices of my ancestors are worth remembering, so hopefully those mistakes can be prevented from repeating

It's exactly this kind of celebrations and people who believe in such things that leads to more wars...

How is it that you going to stop future wars, WHEN YOU HONOR ALL THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE GONE TO WAR?!!!

You hate war, and yet you honor people that go to war...
that sounds a bit contradictory right???

I hate war too, and so I don't honor people that go to war, even my family or friends. Because that's the message I'm trying to give out.
War is wrong and no one should go to war.

People still kill people with god and faith, go read your history books. stop acting like christians are the only ones with a monopoly on pacifism.

People will always kill people for all kinds of reasons, people will always sin...
and your point is???

You have to know that as Christians we shouldn't be doing anything other than preaching the Word of GOD using the bible.

And the bible says that Killing another person is a SIN, and so honoring someone that commits such SIN is wrong also.

Same as honoring a drug addict, a robber, a prostitute, etc, etc.