Anyone up for a chat thread?

[Naomi4Christ]

We have yew trees to keep animals at bay.

 

[Arcangl86]

And candles were originally just for the mundane purpose of allowing people to see, but very quickly there developed a spirituality of light.

 

[Paidiske]

How do yew trees keep animals at bay...?

 

[Naomi4Christ]

How do yew trees keep animals at bay...?

They are poisonous

 

[Naomi4Christ]

And candles were originally just for the mundane purpose of allowing people to see, but very quickly there developed a spirituality of light.

So electric lights have the same spirituality?

 

[Paidiske]

I think there's a whole lot of associations around lighting candles now that we just don't have with flicking a switch.

I've just lit a yahrzeit candle for the anniversary of a friend's death; somehow turning on an electric light wouldn't "feel" the same.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

I think with flickering flames, your eyes are drawn to them. You can't help it. You can't do that with light bulbs.

But whether that aids or detracts religious observance is not always clear.

We have very few symbols in our fellowship, the main one being a simple cross. We don't have candles, except for two services at Christmas. We are happy to sing about the Light of the world, but we are not too fussed at seeing a flame.

I think that too many symbols can get in the way of being the hands and feet of Jesus.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

On a different note, we had over 600 at church today. We had to open up the minstrel galleries and wheel out stacking chairs. It was still standing room only!

Praise the Lord!

Off or a lie down!

 

[Paidiske]

I think that too many symbols can get in the way of being the hands and feet of Jesus.

For some people (especially those who think in or process words easily), I have no doubt that this is true. For others with different learning styles, or different cognitive strengths, the symbols can be what helps them understand.

For example, I have a daughter with autism who has a severe speech delay. Telling her about Jesus in words is seldom going to get through. But a Godly-play type approach, where she can see the story unfold, is more likely to help.

A well-planned worship space and liturgical experience will offer something to everyone, but so often we preference one style over another, or assume that everyone learns and understands the way I do, or that one way is better than another. I don't think any of those things are right.

Edited to add: I think what I'm really saying is that our symbols, artwork, sensory environments in worship and so on are meant to teach and nurture us; and as long as they do so, that is good. It's when it gets beyond that, that they can be unhelpful.

 

[gordonhooker]

I believe it is only when those symbols, words, processes which are really fingers pointing to Christ become the focus of our worship that we have lost the plot.

 

[gordonhooker]

The results of the SSM postal survey were released this morning in Australia, it seems like a large majority of Australian are in favour. Now the politics begin, from what I have heard so far the Federal Government are pushing to have the Family Law Act changed before the end of the year to redefine the section on marriage.

 

[Shane R]

The results of the SSM postal survey were released this morning in Australia, it seems like a large majority of Australian are in favour. Now the politics begin, from what I have heard so far the Federal Government are pushing to have the Family Law Act changed before the end of the year to redefine the section on marriage.

What do you think Gordon?

 

[gordonhooker]

What do you think Gordon?

Hi Shane - Here in Australia ministers of religion (in mainstream faith systems) are also marriage celebrants in accordance with the Federal Family Law Act. Do I believe that all are equal before the law including the protections given by the Family Law Act in relation to marriage and property then yes I agree with the changes proposed initially for the purpose of the SSM survey? As far as what if any effect it may have on the Church legally then we will have to wait and see what is proposed when the bill is argued in parliament.

 

[Paidiske]

We have a 10:00 Eucharist. The results were released at 10:00. In my homily I said that whatever the result, our task now was to care for those who had been hurt in this process, and to reach out to those who had received the message that the church (and God) believe them to be worthless.

I didn't comment on the morality of sexuality, or the legal question of marriage.

And I had someone yelling at me (in the service) for "justifying Satan" and betraying centuries of Christians who died for the faith and... all sorts of stuff.

I could have understood the reaction if I'd said I was lining up to take the first gay wedding or something, but for a comment I thought was pretty mild and not at all radical, it was fairly ugly...

 

[gordonhooker]

We have a 10:00 Eucharist. The results were released at 10:00. In my homily I said that whatever the result, our task now was to care for those who had been hurt in this process, and to reach out to those who had received the message that the church (and God) believe them to be worthless.

I didn't comment on the morality of sexuality, or the legal question of marriage.

And I had someone yelling at me (in the service) for "justifying Satan" and betraying centuries of Christians who died for the faith and... all sorts of stuff.

I could have understood the reaction if I'd said I was lining up to take the first gay wedding or something, but for a comment I thought was pretty mild and not at all radical, it was fairly ugly...

You poor thing no one should have to cop that type of abuse especially during the Eucharist - a wise person said to me recently 'life is too short to try and fix stupid...'. I would take that persons advice and you are in my prayers.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

Interesting response. We have had marriage equality for several years. It happened a bit by surprise. It wasn't on the government manifesto and whizzed through parliament without a lot of scrutiny.

Non-established churches can make their own mind up about equal marriage, but the COfE has be safeguarded. Curiously, this means that free churches can choose, but the COfE is banned from equal marriage.

In all the years of public murmurings about gays in church, as clergy or laity, and public persecution of Christians for holding a biblical stance, I have never heard one word of this in church. The only thing was that a copy of the Windsor Report was available in the church office.

I would have no idea about who is gay or not, or even heterosexual couples co-habiting. People don't generally flaunt their sex lives, except through the obvious thing of having children.

The only news that comes out of Australia to us at the moment is about the Ashes, so I had no idea about the referendum (we are a bit self-absorbed here at the moment). I wonder if the hostility is due to the perceived macho culture of Aussie men?

 

[gordonhooker]

I think the hostility would have been due to the lengthy and at times negative campaigning on both the yes and the no sides.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

I think the hostility would have been due to the lengthy and at times negative campaigning on both the yes and the no sides.

Having had two referenda here in the last three years, I am firmly of the opinion that no good can come of them.

They are naturally divisive, even within families, with their binary choice.

Very few people will change their views in light of the result.

For example, I voted to remain in the EU. On the losing side, I don't say, oh poor show but let's side with the opposition. Absolutely not. I hope and pray that Brexit will not happen.

With the Scottish Indyref, the losers just want to keep having referenda until they win.

No views are changed, and relationships are damaged.

The other thing is that a Parliamentary representative system is not designed for referenda. We vote for our MPs and let them get on with it. There is a lot of protection in this system.

 

[gordonhooker]

Naomi the shame of it all here is that it is also politically motivated to an extent.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

Naomi the shame of it all here is that it is also politically motivated to an extent.

Well, yes, people having an agenda getting other people to take responsibility, in naivety or via fake news. It's why referenda do not work with a parliamentary democracy.