anyone else not like Sunday worship?

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Of course it is related. It is an example of a hand written certificate of debt. It is an example of what the word in Colossians describes.
In your opinion. However The word is not used there and is not limited to what Colossians relates. It is irrelevant anyway. Neither argument depend on the point.



There are various kinds of datives, and the form is also the same for locative and instrumental. There are scholars who argue for dative, and some for instrumental, and many take the meaning of as in consisting in. Note how the ESV renders it for instance:

Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

But that is the difficulty with cases, and why prepositions were already starting to be used in Koine. However, one was not used here, so it is open to a number of possibilities.
None of which counters the points made in regard to the grammar and context in the post you responded to.


The clause "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances" in the Greek is in the Dative Case. The dative case, answers the question where. It is indicated by the word "to" in most interlinears and should be in this case. Also note the use of the definite article τοις (to the)

A direct translation looks like this.
χειρόγραφον (certificate of debt) τοις (to the) δόγμασιν (ordinances)

It is not the entire Book of the Law. Never said that. It is the Handwriting, the certificate of debt to the, or in the ordinances not the ordinances themselves and certainly not the Ten Commandments. Context points to this too. We have been forgiven all trespasses so there is no need for the certificate of debt to the, in the, or of the ordinances because Jesus has taken care of it.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of the ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


Couple that with the fact that verse 16 is being said in context to verse 14. This we know by the word "therefore" being used. With that being so we know that judgement that is mentioned not to judge in respect to meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days is that which is mentioned as being blotted out in verse 14. Hence why principalities and powers are spoiled. Because Jesus triumphed over them, the handwriting or certificate of debt to the ordinances. The judgements and ceremonies that we were indebted to due to our sin because He did no sin.


Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days




If you indicate that it was the obligation to the laws, then why were the Jewish believers and Paul still doing them in Acts 21?
Colossians is in respect to the certificate of debt TO THE ordinances, not the ordinances themselves but the judgments passed down when we broke them. Paul was not sacrificing due to His sin. He took a vow showing that He was not teaching that the Law of Moses was not necessary.



It is not getting rid of the obligation to the law of God. It is forgiving our penalty that we owe due to sins.
That is what the point of the posts is to which you are responding
 
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tall73

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In your opinion. However The word is not used there and is not limited to what Colossians relates. It is irrelevant anyway. Neither argument depend on the point.

If I take you to a field and show you a cow, I don't have to use the word cow for you to know what you are looking at.

The point of noting it was to show what it entails. And other commentators have noted that it is an example. The reason for bringing it up in the first place was that in your earlier post you stated:

Thereby, because they are needed any more, the handwriting of the ordinances were blotted out. That which was against us and contrary to us were the judgements that were contained in the handwriting of the ordinances, the Book of the Law which was placed on the side of the Ark.


You indicated that the judgments were contained in the handwriting of the ordinances, which you then indicate is the book of the law.

My point was that the certificate of debt is not the same as the Book of the Law. You seem to acknowledge that, so the argument served its purpose.
 
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tall73

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None of which counters the points made in regard to the grammar and context in the post you responded to.

How does my statement not discuss the grammar?

There are various kinds of datives, and the form is also the same for locative and instrumental.

I am trying to get you to explain why your particular application of the dative form is the correct one, as compared to the other possibilities for the dative.

The clause "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances" in the Greek is in the Dative Case. The dative case, answers the question where. It is indicated by the word "to" in most interlinears and should be in this case. Also note the use of the definite article τοις (to the)

The dative distinguishes it from the vocative, nominative, genitive, ablative, or accusative. But saying that it is in the dative doesn't mean that it by default means "to", and especially with the sense of "where".

The dative can mean any of these and more:

in, on, to, for (interest), in the sphere/realm of, by means of, with the attendant circumstances of, with (in the sense of the material composed of), indicate indirect object, etc.

Without a preposition to clarify the meaning of the dative you can only argue for why one fits better than others, rather than saying it means "to". Interlinears cannot capture the whole range of the dative every time it is encountered, which is why an interlinear needs to be combined with understanding of the cases.

A direct translation looks like this.
χειρόγραφον (certificate of debt) τοις (to the) δόγμασιν (ordinances)

or it could look like

in the ordinances
on the decrees
by means of the proclamation
consisting of the ordinances

or other various meanings of the dative.
 
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tall73

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Colossians is in respect to the certificate of debt TO THE ordinances, not the ordinances themselves but the judgments passed down when we broke them. Paul was not sacrificing due to His sin. He took a vow showing that He was not teaching that the Law of Moses was not necessary.

So if it is necessary are you still keeping feasts, new moons, etc. ?

And are you still urging circumcision (also in the context).
 
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You indicated that the judgments were contained in the handwriting of the ordinances, which you then indicate is the book of the law.
No the Handwriting or certificate of indebtedness to the ordinances is not the ordinances or the Book of the Law in it's entirety it is the judgements. Please take note that the Lord speaks synonymously of His commandments and statutes to the Word in which is in the heart and mouth of Israel that they may do it.

10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

And then God Includes the judgments in respect to something they must keep. Which means they are separate. Not to be in the heart, part of them. It is Prophetic really in respect to the New Covenant. But also it should be noted that the words above are in the present tense. In other words, the Word, God's commandments and Statutes were nigh to them then. In their hearts and in their mouths that they may do them. But sadly most refused the Gift as most do now.

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
 
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HIM

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So if it is necessary are you still keeping feasts, new moons, etc. ?

And are you still urging circumcision (also in the context).
Stay on topic please, what you ask here was never implied in anything posted.
 
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HIM

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How does my statement not discuss the grammar?

There are various kinds of datives, and the form is also the same for locative and instrumental.

I am trying to get you to explain why your particular application of the dative form is the correct one, as compared to the other possibilities for the dative.



The dative distinguishes it from the vocative, nominative, genitive, ablative, or accusative. But saying that it is in the dative doesn't mean that it by default means "to", and especially with the sense of "where".

The dative can mean any of these and more:

in, on, to, for (interest), in the sphere/realm of, by means of, with the attendant circumstances of, with (in the sense of the material composed of), indicate indirect object, etc.

Without a preposition to clarify the meaning of the dative you can only argue for why one fits better than others, rather than saying it means "to". Interlinears cannot capture the whole range of the dative every time it is encountered, which is why an interlinear needs to be combined with understanding of the cases.



or it could look like

in the ordinances
on the decrees
by means of the proclamation
consisting of the ordinances

or other various meanings of the dative.
Grammar and context. Context is disclosed in verse 16 when judgment is mention. The word "therefore is being said in respect to a conclusion to what is previously stated. This connects the handwriting to the ordinances to the new moon, food and drink, Holy day and Sabbaths mention in verse 16.

Context is also disclosed in verse 13 in respect to forgiveness. If we are forgiven there is no need for Judgment. Hence the the Handwriting to the ordinances is not needed.
 
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tall73

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Grammar and context.

Which is reduced to just context, which was my point. The grammar is inconclusive without the preposition, so you have to discuss various possibilities.

Context is disclosed in verse 16 when judgment is mention. The word "therefore is being said in respect to a conclusion to what is previously stated. This connects the handwriting to the ordinances to the new moon, food and drink, Holy day and Sabbaths mention in verse 16.

Context is also disclosed in verse 13 in respect to forgiveness. If we are forgiven there is no need for Judgment. Hence the the Handwriting to the ordinances is not needed.

We agree that "therefore" connects the two. And we agree we are forgiven. In fact, I noted at the outset that the handwritten bond was about our record of sins. Jesus forgave our sins.

But the context throughout the section is related, to more than just the appointed times. He is addressing a number of things that could shipwreck their faith if they focus on those rather than on Christ.

He mentions philosophy (v. 8), circumcision (v. 11), asceticism and worship of angels (v. 18).

He indicates to be rooted and built up in Christ (v.7), as opposed to being caught up in these other things that would not benefit them.
 
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tall73

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Stay on topic please, what you ask here was never implied in anything posted.

I am very much on topic. I am asking you if you believe people need to be circumcised, or keep the Passover, new moon, etc.

All of these are discussed in the text.
 
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tall73

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No the Handwriting or certificate of indebtedness to the ordinances is not the ordinances or the Book of the Law in it's entirety it is the judgements. Please take note that the Lord speaks synonymously of His commandments and statutes to the Word in which is in the heart and mouth of Israel that they may do it.

10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

And then God Includes the judgments in respect to something they must keep. Which means they are separate. Not to be in the heart, part of them. It is Prophetic really in respect to the New Covenant. But also it should be noted that the words above are in the present tense. In other words, the Word, God's commandments and Statutes were nigh to them then. In their hearts and in their mouths that they may do them. But sadly most refused the Gift as most do now.

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Did Christ blot out the curse of the law, or redeem us from under it?

Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”
Gal 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Gal 3:12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—
Gal 3:14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Is the curse of the law still there for those who are not in Christ?


Gal 5:2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Gal 5:5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.

 
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HIM

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So if it is necessary are you still keeping feasts, new moons, etc. ?

And are you still urging circumcision (also in the context).

Stay on topic please, what you ask here was never implied in anything posted.

I am very much on topic. I am asking you if you believe people need to be circumcised, or keep the Passover, new moon, etc.

All of these are discussed in the text.
No you asked if "I was still urging circumcision".
Never urged it or implied it.
Now You ask if, "I believe people need to be circumcised, or keep the Passover, new moon, etc."

How can you ask that if the judgement in respect to food and drink (offerings) holyday, the new moon, and sabbaths has been eradicated because the principalities and power have been put off, spoiled. Due to the blotting out of the handwriting TO THE ordinances, the Judgments and ceremonies that were against us and contrary to us when we sinned. These are they which have been blotted out. Not the ordinances in respect to morality and certainly not the Ten Commandments. But the handwritten certificate of debt TO THE ordinances, that which we owed, the Judgments and ceremonies that were against us and contrary to us when we sinned. These were blotted out, because we have been forgiven all trespasses. So they are not needed anymore.

There is much more in Colossians 2, but I fear they are but just wasted words on parchment for most....

How is it most of us still sin if we have been circumcised by the circumcision of Christ in the cutting off of the body of the sins of the flesh. Buried and risen with Him through the Faith of the operation of God. Complete in Him, He having all the fullness of the Godhead (Divine Attributes) bodily?

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
 
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Soyeong

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Not to be a Judaizer, but I do wish that Baptists at least would go back to Saturday worship, just because Sunday was something instigated by the Roman Catholic Church, and it's kinda like.. even though we're not Catholic, we're obeying a Catholic doctrine that they invented themselves. I don't like the idea of obeying the Pope at all.

Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), so Paul's problem with the Judaizes was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow Christ as if obedience to what God has commanded is somehow a negative thing, but that they were teaching a works-based salvation. In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so the problem was they were using circumcision for a man-made purpose on top of what God had commanded. So the Jerusalem Council upheld the Mosaic Law by correctly ruling against that requirement, and a ruling against something that God never required should not be mistaken as being a ruling against obeying what God has commanded, as if the Jerusalem Council had the authority to countermand God.

So there is nothing connected with being a Judaizer with thinking that followers of God should follow God's command to keep the 7th day holy in accordance with the example Christ set for us to follow by resting from our work on Saturday. The RCC likewise did not have the authority to countermand God. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Mosaic Law, and in Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone was a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying the Mosaic Law, so God did not leave any room for His people to follow someone who tries to do that.

Give verses that show Sunday worship.

In Acts 2:46-47, they were meeting in the temple courts and praising God on every day, so the the problem is not with someone following their own tradition of worshiping God on Sunday in addition to obeying His command to keep the 7th day holy, but with hypocritically setting aside God's command to keep the 7th day holy in order to establish their own tradition (Mark 7:6-9).
 
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Soyeong

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The Eastern Orthodox Church would disagree that Sunday worship was invented by the Roman Catholic Church. Worship on Sunday goes back to the beginning.

We're not obeying a Catholic doctrine. We're obeying the Lord, who told us through Scripture that we shouldn't forsake assembling together, that only those weak in faith are worried about special holy days, and to let no one judge us in regard to a sabbath.
Don't consider it to have ever been obedience. Church meetings are a day to celebrate Jesus. It has never been about observing a sabbath. Jesus is the Sabbath now.
Romans 14:5
One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Colossians 2:16
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

In Mark 7:6-9, Jesus criticized the Pharisees as being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions. It is good to worship God on every day, so the problem is not with something following a tradition of gathering for worship on Sunday in addition to obeying God's command to keep the 7th day holy, but with them hypocritically setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their tradition.

The topic of Romans 14 is in regard to handling disputable matters of opinion, not in regard to whether followers of God should follow God, so nothing in the chapter should be interpreted as speaking against obeying what God has commanded. For example, God has given no command to fast twice a week, but that had become a common practice in the 1st century, where people who were choosing to fast were passing judgment on those who who did not (Luke 18:12), and it was exactly this so of judging each other over opinions that Paul was seeking to quell in this chapter. In Romans 14:5-6, it speaks about those who eat or refrain from eating until the Lord, so he was speaking about those who esteem certain days for fasting as a disputable matter of opinion, not about God's holy days. God has commanded His people to keep the 7th day holy, so whether someone does that is a matter of obedience to God, not a disputable matter of opinion. Paul was not saying that we are permitted to commit murder, theft, adultery, idolatry, break the Sabbath, or disobey any of God's other commands just as long as we are convinced in our own minds that it is ok, but rather that was only said in regard to things that are disputable matters of opinion. The reason why we are to keep the 7th day holy is not because man esteemed it as a matter of opinion, but because God blessed it, made it holy, commanded His people to keep it holy, and because what is holy to God should not be profaned by man.

In Colossians 2:16-23, Paul described the people who were judging them as teaching human traditions and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, so they were being judged by pagans. This means that the Colossians were keeping God's holy days in obedience to His commands in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them and keep them from obeying God. So you should be more careful not to take something that was only spoke against follow the teachings or opinions of man as being against obeying what God has commanded as if Paul had the authority to countermand God.
 
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Soyeong

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The Jewish Sabbath was not always on Saturday, either. If you want to go back to the original Sabbath, then you need to learn something about lunar calendars. Otherwise, you're forsaking the body of Christ for a body of unbelieving Jews. Whether the Catholic, or some other church, instigated Sunday worship, it was still started by the church. The Jews currently worship on a day not ordained by God in the beginning.

In Leviticus 23:15-16, it instructions to count to the day after the 7th Sabbath for a total of 50 days. However, if the Sabbath was reset based on the 1st of every lunar month, then there would be partial weeks at the end of every month, which would never total 50 days.
 
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Here is a bit of perspective on the history leading up to the regional synod of Laodicea.

The Jewish believers in Jerusalem continued to observe the law, meet in Synagogues until they were kicked out, etc. When Saul wanted to arrest Christians in Damascus, before his conversion, He planned on going to the synagogues:

Act 9:1 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest
Act 9:2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

Act 22:19 And I said, 'Lord, they themselves know that in one synagogue after another I imprisoned and beat those who believed in you.


This made sense because the Scriptures were read in the synagogue. Not everyone had scrolls. Eventually they were put out of the synagogues. We see this at times in Acts. Then they would meet in homes, or in one mentioned instance, a lecture hall daily.

James, during the discussion of Acts 15 regarding salvation by faith and circumcision, the law of Moses etc. makes reference to the continuing preaching of Moses in the synagogue and assumes familiarity with the practice on the part of all present, from the various churches throughout the world:

Act 15:21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."

James references the synagogue when speaking to Jewish Christians:

Jam 2:2 For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in,
Jam 2:3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, "You sit here in a good place," while you say to the poor man, "You stand over there," or, "Sit down at my feet,"
Jam 2:4 have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?


The word translated "assembly" here is the term for the synagogue.

James and the believers in Jerusalem were "zealous" for the law. Indeed, the Jewish believers there continued to practice the law and the traditions of the fathers and even Paul did so:


They note the distinction made at the Jerusalem council, recorded in Acts 15. The Jewish believers went on observing the law. But the Gentiles were under the mandate from the council.

Paul was being accused of turning away Jews in the diaspora from the law. In actuality Paul was upholding that Gentiles did not need to be circumcised to be in Christ.

But it shows that the Jewish believers continued with all the law, including vows, sacrifices, etc. T
he question in Acts 15 was not what the Jews should give up, but what should be required of the gentiles.

And this made sense because witnessing the Jews while throwing out the Torah wouldn't get very far.

In the same way Christian evangelism would be limited by requiring Gentiles to be circumcised and obey the entire law of Moses, which was not needed for them to receive Christ by faith. You can check out Galatians which touches on these issues thoroughly. Galatians also points out that Gentiles are not without moral requirements, and walking in the Spirit fulfills the law. in fact Paul would at times use specific OT commandments, including from the Ten Commandments, to teach moral principles.

Both groups recognized the Grace of Christ, and extended fellowship. For instance in Acts 21 James and the elders welcomed with joy the report of the evangelizing of the Gentiles.

The Jewish believers, who were the dominant force in the church until at least 70 AD, and likely continued to be at least partly until the total destruction of Jerusalem and conversion of it to a hellenistic city, were fully accepted as members of Christ, though keeping the whole law. Not only were they accepted ,but they were the norm. For the first years of Christianity the church had not fully understood Jesus' command to go to the Gentiles. You can Read Acts 10-11 for the background on that, and Acts 15.

With the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 the Jewish believers fled. But some continued that kept the law, and worshiped Christ. However, they grew apart from the gentile believers who now became the norm.

We see historical records of the "Nazarenes" who were Jewish believers.

Epiphanius' Panarionis a work that deals with all the heresies that the author is aware of. He resided in Palestine, so was closer to some of the issues in this regard. In this work he describes the Nazarenes:

For they use not only the New Testament but also the Old, like the Jews. For the Legislation and the Prophets and the Scriptures, which are called the Bible by the Jews, are not rejected by them as they are by those mentioned above [Manicheans, Marcionites, Gnostics]. Panarion 7.2

"Only in this respect they differ from the Jews and Christians: with the Jews they do not agree because of their belief in Christ, with the Christians because they are trained in the Law, in circumcision, the Sabbath, and the other things." "By birth they are Jews and they dedicate themselves to the Law and submit to circumcision." Panarion 7.5

However, they are very much hated by the Jews. For not only the Jewish children cherish hate against them but the people also stand up in the morning, at noon, and in the evening, three times a day and they pronounce curses and maledictions over them when they say their prayers in the synagogues. Three times a day they say: 'May God curse the Nazarenes.' For they are more hostile against them because they proclaim as Jews that Jesus is the Christ Panarion 9.2-3

"They have a good mastery of the Hebrew language. For the entire Law and the Prophets and what is called the Scriptures, I mention the poetical books, Kings, Chronicles and Ester and all the others, are read by them in Hebrew as in the case with the Jews, of course." Panarion 7.4

"They have the entire Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew. It is carefully preserved by them in Hebrew letters." Panarion 9.4


Jerome also references the Nazarenes who kept the whole law:

"The Nazarenes, who accept Christ in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old law, explain the two houses as the two families, viz. Of Shammai and Hillel, from whom originated the Scribes and the Pharisees." Jerome's Commentary on Isaih (on Isaiah 8.14)


Now here is the upshot. These believers were in most ways quite orthodox, with Jerome and Epiphanius giving indications that they were also orthodox in their Christology. However, Epiphanius considers them heretics because of their observance of the law.

But they are practically no different than James and his group of Jewish believers in Jerusalem. It appears over time the Jewish believers in Christ and the gentiles grew apart.

Another statement on this point is seen in Justin Martyr's dialogue with Trypho (a non-Christian Jew). This is an earlier date than Epiphanius actually, and we see the divide starting to happen. Justin makes reference to a group who believes in Christ, but keeps the Jewish law. He extends fellowship to them, but considers them weak-minded.

But if some, through weak-mindedness, wish to observe such institutions as were given by Moses, from which they expect some virtue, but which we believe were appointed by reason of the hardness of the people's hearts, along with their hope in this Christ, and [wish to perform] the eternal and natural acts of righteousness and piety, yet choose to live with the Christians and the faithful, as I said before, not inducing them either to be circumcised like themselves, or to keep the Sabbath, or to observe any other such ceremonies, then I hold that we ought to join ourselves to such, and associate with them in all things as kinsmen and brethren. But if, Trypho, I continued, some of your race, who say they believe in this Christ, compel those Gentiles who believe in this Christ to live in all respects according to the law given by Moses, or choose not to associate so intimately with them, I in like manner do not approve of them. But I believe that even those, who have been persuaded by them to observe the legal dispensation along with their confession of God in Christ, shall probably be saved. (Chapter 48)

Here we see a fascinating discussion in which Justin acknowledges that there are some who observe the law (confirmed much more strongly by Chrysostom later), along with faith. He extends fellowship to them, but doesn't want them to compel Gentiles. This is similar to what we saw in the book of Acts.

However, if some gentile Christians are compelled to keep various observances, he still thinks they will likely be saved (because they are acting in faith, not legalism), but doesn't like it too much.

So we see a growing apart of the two groups to a degree, and continued skepticism of gentiles being compelled to observe Jewish law.

Later this was present to an even greater degree and I would say some overreact.

John Chrysostom, Commentary on Galatians. 4th century
NPNF1-13. Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians, Timothy, Titus, and Philemon - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

You will now understand why Paul calls circumcision a subversion of the Gospel. There are many among us now, who fast on the same day as the Jews, and keep the sabbaths in the same manner; and we endure it nobly or rather ignobly and basely.

Chrsysostom has stronger statements, but this will suffice.

If you agree that Jewish believers continued to observe the Torah, then that would mean that all Christians were Torah observant Jews for roughly the first 7-15 years after Christ's resurrection up until the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10, which would mean that Christianity at its origin was the form of Judaism that recognized Jesus as its prophesied Messiah. This would also mean that mainstream Christianity today has separated itself from what Christianity was at its origin while the Nazarenes were the ones who continued to correctly follow what Christianity was at its origin.

In Acts 15:1, non-believers from Judea were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so the problem was that circumcision was being appropriated to support a false works-based salvation. They were opposed in Acts 15:5 by a group of believers from among the Pharisees who argued that Gentiles should become circumcised and obey the Torah as a matter of faith and the Jerusalem Council ruled in favor of the second group. At no point did anyone there take the position that Gentiles didn't need to become circumcised or obey the Torah, though the Jerusalem Council did soften the position of the second group by recognizing that learning how to obey the Torah is something that is done over time, not in a day. So they started Gentiles off with the basics, which they excused in Acts 15:21 by saying that Gentiles would continue to learn how to obey Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues.

In Acts 21:20, they were rejoicing that tens of thousands of Jews who were coming to faith who were all zealous for the Torah. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah is the correct response to the Gospel message. Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message, which Jesus prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14). Likewise, in Acts 2:38, when Peter told his audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, the Torah was how they knew what sin is. In Acts 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel message involved bringing the Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed, so he was on the same page about teaching repentance from our sins. Furthermore, in Romans 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, and 1 Peter 4:17, it speaks against those who do not obey the Gospel.

Jesus taught obedience to the Torah both by word and by example, and Paul's problem in Galatians was not with those who were teaching Gentiles how to follow Christ as if obedience to God were somehow a negative thing, but rather his problem was with those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified. So the Nazarenes who continued to believe in Jesus and follow his example of obedience to the Torah in obedience to God were the ones who got it right.

Did Christ blot out the curse of the law, or redeem us from under it?

Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”
Gal 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Gal 3:12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—
Gal 3:14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.


In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works, which he contrasted in Romans 3:31 with our faith upholding the Torah, so the Torah is of faith. Likewise, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Torah. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as the ones who are living in obedience to the Torah. Likewise, in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Torah, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to the Torah. God is trustworthy, therefore His Torah is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7) and a Torah that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to put our faith in the Torah is to put our faith in the Lawgiver, while to deny that it is of faith is to deny the faithfulness of the Lawgiver. In Deuteronomy 28:1-14, it describes the blessing of living in obedience to the Torah while verses 15-68 describe the curse of living in disobedience to it, so being set free free from the curse of the Torah is being set free to enjoy the blessing of obeying it.

Is the curse of the law still there for those who are not in Christ?

Gal 5:2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Gal 5:5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.

All throughout the Bible, God wanted his people to repent and to return to obedience to the Torah, and even Christ began his ministry with that message, so it would be absurd to interpret Galatians 5:2-5 as Paul warning us against doing that and saying that we will be cut off from Christ if we follow Christ. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, so that is the way to be under grace, not the way to fall from grace. Paul's problem again was with those who were trying to become justified by their works of the law, not with obeying God's law.
 
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Colossians 2:14
tall73 said:
Colossians 2:14

There were no laws nailed to the cross:

1.) You shall not commit murder.

2.) This person has been found guilty of murder.

The first is an example of a law that is for our own good while the second is an example of a handwritten ordinance that was against someone that was nailed to their cross in order to announce why they were being executed. In Matthew 27:37, it says that they put the charge that was against Jesus over his head, so what was nailed to people's crosses was not the laws themselves, but the charge that was against them. This serves as a perfect analogy for the list of our violations of God's law being nailed to Christ's cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but has nothing to do with ending any of God's laws, especially because they are all eternal (Psalms 119:160). In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to end any laws, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness, so saying that there were any laws nailed to the cross undermines what he accomplished on the cross. The Greek word "dogma" means "edict, ordinance, or decree" and is never used by the Bible to refer to God's law.

It sounds like the OP is reading various Sabbatarian apologetics, which is fine to do, but they assert that this is occurring after a Sabbath meeting, which goes into Saturday night, after sundown, which is then considered the first day.

Certainly he speaks till midnight. So this is possible. but against that is the phrasing, On the first day of the week we came together to break bread, which suggests a recurring practice. The meeting went so long because he was to leave the next day.

In any case, likely they would meet in synagogues where it was still allowed early on and heard the Scriptures. But then there would be a need of particularly Christian teaching, and this seems to indicate that was happening on the first day.

In Acts 20:7, it is important to keep in mind that for Jews the day started at sundown, so a meeting on the first day of the week would have began on what we would refer to as Saturday at sundown. Jews have a longstanding tradition of meeting on the first day of the week for a Havdalah service on Saturday at sundown to mark the closing of the Sabbath and to welcome in the work week. Jews also traditionally didn't handle money on the Sabbath, so this was also a time when they would collect offerings. So Paul spoke from evening until midnight, not from morning until midnight, and then left on Sunday morning to travel. This does not establish that they met on Sunday morning, and even if they had, it wouldn't establish that this was the start of a new tradition, and even if it was, it wouldn't establish that they hypocritically set aside God's command to keep the Sabbath in order to establish their own tradition, and even if they had, it wouldn't establish that we should follow in their example of sin.
 
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tall73

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No you asked if "I was still urging circumcision".
Never urged it or implied it.
Now You ask if, "I believe people need to be circumcised, or keep the Passover, new moon, etc."

Ok, I think I get what you mean now. Yes the first way of asking was poorly phrased. In both cases I was trying to see if you thought these things were still necessary. And the reason I asked is because there is a wide variety of opinions on the subject, especially among Sabbatarians.

How can you ask that if the judgement in respect to food and drink (offerings) holyday, the new moon, and sabbaths has been eradicated because the principalities and power have been put off, spoiled. Due to the blotting out of the handwriting TO THE ordinances, the Judgments and ceremonies that were against us and contrary to us when we sinned. These are they which have been blotted out.

I am having a hard time getting what you are saying because you seem to go back and forth one whether you think some particular ordinances were blotted out. First it seemed you thought so, then it seemed you didn't, and just the judgments related to the ordinances was blotted out, and now again you seem to indicate you don't have to observe them.

Also, it is unclear how you limit the effect so to speak if your view is that the obligation to the law is blotted out, how you limit that to only certain laws.

Nor do I think the sacrificial service was against us. It was pointing to Jesus.
 
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tall73

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How is it most of us still sin if we have been circumcised by the circumcision of Christ in the cutting off of the body of the sins of the flesh. Buried and risen with Him through the Faith of the operation of God. Complete in Him, He having all the fullness of the Godhead (Divine Attributes) bodily?

Can you also clarify, are you stating you don't sin?

I am trying to understand your point of view on a number of subjects so we can see where the differences are.
 
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tall73

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If you agree that Jewish believers continued to observe the Torah, then that would mean that all Christians were Torah observant Jews for roughly the first 7-15 years after Christ's resurrection up until the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10, which would mean that Christianity at its origin was the form of Judaism that recognized Jesus as its prophesied Messiah.

We agree on this portion.

It will take some time to work through your other posts. However, to generalize just to make sure I am getting what I see so far, you are of the view everyone is to observe the Torah, including gentiles, and that the Acts 15 requirements were essentially training wheels, correct?
 
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There were no laws nailed to the cross:

1.) You shall not commit murder.

2.) This person has been found guilty of murder.

The first is an example of a law that is for our own good while the second is an example of a handwritten ordinance that was against someone that was nailed to their cross in order to announce why they were being executed. In Matthew 27:37, it says that they put the charge that was against Jesus over his head, so what was nailed to people's crosses was not the laws themselves, but the charge that was against them. This serves as a perfect analogy for the list of our violations of God's law being nailed to Christ's cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but has nothing to do with ending any of God's laws, especially because they are all eternal (Psalms 119:160). In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to end any laws, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness, so saying that there were any laws nailed to the cross undermines what he accomplished on the cross. The Greek word "dogma" means "edict, ordinance, or decree" and is never used by the Bible to refer to God's law.



In Acts 20:7, it is important to keep in mind that for Jews the day started at sundown, so a meeting on the first day of the week would have began on what we would refer to as Saturday at sundown. Jews have a longstanding tradition of meeting on the first day of the week for a Havdalah service on Saturday at sundown to mark the closing of the Sabbath and to welcome in the work week. Jews also traditionally didn't handle money on the Sabbath, so this was also a time when they would collect offerings. So Paul spoke from evening until midnight, not from morning until midnight, and then left on Sunday morning to travel. This does not establish that they met on Sunday morning, and even if they had, it wouldn't establish that this was the start of a new tradition, and even if it was, it wouldn't establish that they hypocritically set aside God's command to keep the Sabbath in order to establish their own tradition, and even if they had, it wouldn't establish that we should follow in their example of sin.
You might want to actually address the posts you are responding to
 
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