Anyone else here reads from the American Standard Version?

[ananda]

 

[OzSpen]

I would not read the ASV because of its old fashioned language. It competes with the KJV for Elizabethan English. I did read its updated version, the New American Standard Bible, for a number of years.

However, I now find the ESV has a better flowing English than the NASB.

However, the ASV is an excellent translation for the era in which it was translated, as long as one prefers a formal equivalence translation.

Oz

 

[ananda]

I would not read the ASV because of its old fashioned language. It competes with the KJV for Elizabethan English. I did read its updated version, the New American Standard Bible, for a number of years. However, I now find the ESV has a better flowing English than the NASB. However, the ASV is an excellent translation for the era in which it was translated, as long as one prefers a formal equivalence translation. Oz

I love the ASV - it's a hidden gem that most today don't know about!

 

[OzSpen]

I love the ASV - it's a hidden gem that most today don't know about!

So what is it that attracts you to the ASV?

Oz

 

[ananda]

So what is it that attracts you to the ASV?

Oz

I find that, among English translations, it is much more literal & accurate than the KJV and other more modern translations.

 

[OzSpen]

I find that, among English translations, it is much more literal & accurate than the KJV and other more modern translations.

So do you read Hebrew and Greek to know that it is more literal and accurate than other translations?

I note that under your name you have, 'Non-Pauline Messianic'. Does that mean that you do not accept the Pauline epistles as part of the NT?

Oz

 

[ananda]

So do you read Hebrew and Greek to know that it is more literal and accurate than other translations?

I've been learning Hebrew & Greek for the last two years.

I note that under your name you have, 'Non-Pauline Messianic'. Does that mean that you do not accept the Pauline epistles as part of the NT? Oz

Correct, I do not accept Paul nor his writings

 

[OzSpen]

I've been learning Hebrew & Greek for the last two years.

Correct, I do not accept Paul nor his writings

In addition to the ASV, the RSV, NRSV, NASB and ESV are excellent formal equivalent translations.

However, the NIV and NLT as dynamic equivalence translations give us meaning-for-meaning translations and this also is a beneficial way of translating.

How come you are able to excise Paul's writings from the NT? What gives you that authority? How do you know about justification by faith without Paul's teaching in his epistles?

Oz

 

[ananda]

In addition to the ASV, the RSV, NRSV, NASB and ESV are excellent formal equivalent translations.

I also enjoy the RSV, NASB, and ESV at times, but I personally find that they are less literal than the ASV.

However, the NIV and NLT as dynamic equivalence translations give us meaning-for-meaning translations and this also is a beneficial way of translating.

They serve a different purpose. There can be many meanings behind the original words, though. These translations can only capture one shade of meaning for any given passage.

How come you are able to excise Paul's writings from the NT? What gives you that authority?

We are each given this responsibility and authority to test all prophets, from YHWH Himself, as recorded in Deu 13:1-5.

How do you know about justification by faith without Paul's teaching in his epistles?

I don't believe that we are justified by faith alone. Brother, have you considered that the rest of Scripture points to justification by trust, repentance, and obedience, and not simply faith alone?

 

[OzSpen]

We are each given this responsibility and authority to test all prophets, from YHWH Himself, as recorded in Deu 13:1-5.

I don't believe that we are justified by faith alone. Brother, have you considered that the rest of Scripture points to justification by trust, repentance, and obedience, and not simply faith alone?

We do not have the responsibility to test what is in the Scriptures. By the way, Deut 13:1-5 applied to the theocratic nation of Israel as v. 5 makes clear:

.... your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery (ESV).

And what was the penalty for a false prophet for Israel? Deut. 13:5 says that prophet "shall be put to death". Are you advocating that false prophets in this NT era should be put to death?

By the way, what makes Paul a false prophet so that you cut out his writings from the NT?

With respect, you have stated that we are justified by trust, repentance and obedience. I note that you gave me not one reference so that I could check you out. By the way, trust is associated with faith.

Oz

 

[ananda]

We do not have the responsibility to test what is in the Scriptures.

You are correct, in a sense. However, the only material Messiah identified as Scripture was the Torah/Law and the Neviim/Prophets.

How do you know that Paul's writings are "Scripture"? Messiah didn't identify it as Scripture. No, Scripture is not subject to testing, but anyone who calls himself a spokesman for YHWH or Messiah can and must be tested, in obedience to Deu 13:1-5 - including Paul.

By the way, Deut 13:1-5 applied to the theocratic nation of Israel as v. 5 makes clear:

It also applies to Gentiles who sojourn with Israel, e.g. "One law and one ordinance shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you." Num 15:16 (also Ex 12:49, Lev 24:44, Num 15:29, Num 9:14, Deu 29:10-11, etc.). Gentiles who struggle with YHWH for His blessing are those who sojourn with Israel. Those who walk in trust, repentance, and obedience have the same obligations, responsibilities, and receive the same blessings as Israel.

And what was the penalty for a false prophet for Israel? Deut. 13:5 says that prophet "shall be put to death". Are you advocating that false prophets in this NT era should be put to death?

Well, obviously I can't put Paul to death, but I can ignore his writings.

By the way, what makes Paul a false prophet so that you cut out his writings from the NT?

He spoke against obedience to YHWH's Torah/Law, falsely claiming that it is gone away. Messiah, however, repeatedly expounded Torah & emphasized the need for believers to walk in obedience. Messiah also stated that the Law remains in force until heaven and earth passes.

With respect, you have stated that we are justified by trust, repentance and obedience. I note that you gave me not one reference so that I could check you out. By the way, trust is associated with faith.

Read Messiah's parables. He emphasized trust in Him and the Father. He started His ministry with the message to "repent"! He also spoke about the need for obedience, e.g. Mt 19:17, Jn 14:15, Jn 15:10.

Paul preached salvation thru grace by a one-time confession of faith in Jesus as Christ and Lord. Messiah, however, preached salvation through ongoing trust, ongoing repentance, and ongoing obedience. Messiah Himself never preached about "grace."

I urge you to re-read Messiah's parables and words, without filtering them through the eyes of Paul: Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither is the apostolos than he that sent him. Jn 13:16.

Remember the Parable of the Vine, where those in Him must bear fruit or expect to be cut off and burned. Remember the Parable of the Sower; there were seeds which believed for a while but were choked and taken away - only the seed which grew fruit, endured. Remember the deeds of the good Samaritan. Remember the responsibility of the debtor in the Parable of the Two Debtors - forgiveness is not obtained unless we forgive others ourselves (compare Mat 6:12)! Remember the Parable of the unforgiving Servant. Etc., etc. Obedience, according to Messiah, is an essential ingredient in our salvation. Paul's gospel message is not the same as Messiah's gospel message!

Also, faith is belief without evidence, whereas trust is belief with evidence. These are actually two opposing concepts.

 

[OzSpen]

netzarim,

Jesus Christ disagrees with you. He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven (Matt 5:17-19 ESV)

NT believers, whether Jew or Gentile, are not under the laws of the Old Covenant. Jesus has fulfilled them for us.

The verses you quoted from the OT referred only to the Israelite theocratic kingdom. I think that it is time for you to become a NT believer in Christ alone for salvation.

faith is belief without evidence, whereas trust is belief with evidence. These are actually two opposing concepts.

This is false. You have defined faith according to fideism. True Christian faith is founded on the fact of Christ's life, death and resurrection.

You made so many points that need refuting but I do not have the time.

Bye, Oz

 

[ananda]

netzarim, Jesus Christ disagrees with you. He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets:

I agree. He came to fulfill the Law, and continues to fulfill it. He did not completely fulfill everything during His first coming. For example, the Law teaches us about the seven moedim:

Passover - represents Messiah's death
Unleavened Bread - His burial
Firstfruits - His resurrection
Shavuot - Giving of the Spirit
Yom Teruah - the day which no man knows the day or hour: His second coming
Yom Kippur - Judgment
Sukkot - the 1,000 year reign

The first four moedim have been fulfilled. The last three have not yet been fulfilled. The Law and the Prophets still apply today.

However, the Law and the Prophets NT believers, whether Jew or Gentile, are not under the laws of the Old Covenant. Jesus has fulfilled them for us.

We are not under the New Covenant yet. According to Jeremiah 31:31-34, the New Covenant includes the following: 1) YHWH will place His Torah/Law in everyone's heart, 2) nobody will need to teach his neighbor, and 3) everyone will know YHWH. I think you will agree that these conditions have not been fulfilled. We are not currently under the New Covenant; Yehoshua Messiah will implement the New Covenant during the thousand year reign.

The verses you quoted from the OT referred only to the Israelite theocratic kingdom. I think that it is time for you to become a NT believer in Christ alone for salvation.

There is no salvation outside of Israel.

A Gentile cannot remain a Gentile and be saved. The very definitions of the words "Gentile" and "Israel" demonstrates this. "Gentile" means "out of covenant". "Israel" means "those who struggle with YHWH". When an ethnic Gentile struggles with YHWH, he or she becomes part of Israel, just as YHWH changed Jacob into Israel.

 

[OzSpen]

netzarim,

There is no salvation outside of Israel.

So says netzarim.

Netzarim disagrees with Jesus. I know whom I am believing and it is not a CF poster!

We are off topic here. I think that you need to start a new thread with a title such as "There is no salvation outside of Israel". It would fit under Soteriology.

Bye, Oz

 

[ananda]

Netzarim disagrees with Jesus. I know whom I am believing and it is not a CF poster!

You realize that Messiah stated that He didn't come for any but the lost sheep of Israel, right? (Mt 15:24)

 

[OzSpen]

You realize that Messiah stated that He didn't come for any but the lost sheep of Israel, right? (Mt 15:24)

So for whom was Jesus' vicarious atonement?

Does your view of Israel include the New Israel?

If this discussion is to continue, you need to start a new thread.

Oz

 

[ananda]

So for whom was Jesus' vicarious atonement? Does your view of Israel include the New Israel?

Yehoshua's atonement is only for those who struggle with YHWH for His blessing, not for those out of covenant.

 

[ananda]

So what is it that attracts you to the ASV?

Back to the OP ... another thing I like about the ASV is it's use of the divine Name. It does not hide His Name like the majority of translations do.

 

[OzSpen]

Yehoshua's atonement is only for those who struggle with YHWH for His blessing, not for those out of covenant.

So you avoided answering my question, which was:

So for whom was Jesus' vicarious atonement? Does your view of Israel include the New Israel?

Bye, Oz

 

[ananda]

So you avoided answering my question

I answered your question - Messiah's atonement is only for those in YHWH's Covenant.