Anyone else have a unique eschatology?

[Mr E]

Why say that?
I have not heard anything from you that invalidates anything I have said.
And all you like to do is laugh... lots of stuff in the Bible about scoffers and mockers and not listening to them.
So maybe keep your jocularity to yourself.

Will do. I didn't realize you had a sensitivity without a sense of humor. Noted.

As they say in recursion circles--- what goes around, comes around.

See ya.

 

[Bobber]

. You then undeniably debunking that, yet, this person insisting nothing has been debunked whatsoever. IOW, just because, in their mind they insist nothing has been debunked, this hardly proves nothing has been debunked.

Sure. But there's dynamics involved in the why this is so,

1) they may have held a position for many years. What's that say about their insight for all the years they've held a wrong view. Some would rather die then admit even to themselves they might be wrong.

2) They may have spent lots of money educating themselves a certain way. What I wasted all that money?

3) If they admit to themselves they've been wrong about one thing....then what about everything else they've believed. They might feel like the floor is falling out from below them.

 

[Bobber]

So why not get a group of people that have views about Revelation but are ready and open to debating with the ability to change their minds on some aspects.

Who you're speaking to can make a difference. Professional clergymen, Pastors etc might feel they can never show what you're asking for, they're supposed to have all these things figured out to be a proper leader. Or so they think. I think non clergy can feel more relaxed.

 

[dwb001]

Who you're speaking to can make a difference. Professional clergymen, Pastors etc might feel they can never show what you're asking for, they're supposed to have all these things figured out to be a proper leader. Or so they think. I think non clergy can feel more relaxed.

Gotta ask to find out though.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So it is interpreted already... no need to interpret it any further.

Here's an exegetical question for you since you've been asking for questions: if the angel already interpreted for John the meaning of the Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns, then ... which political powers in the world do the seven heads and ten horns represent, and when are they to be, or have been, manifested in history?

The reason I'm asking this question is to shed some light for us on the fact that there is, I think, obviously some additional exegetical and hermeneutical thinking that has to be applied for further understanding (which is further need for additional interpretation since it doesn't seem clear to me).

When I read Revelation chapter 13 and 17, I tend to think the reference is to what we generally think of today as "Europe." But oddly, there are Christian scholars out there now who have dropped the Hal Lindsey style interpretive schtick and instead see the Beast as the "Word of Islam." So, who is right? We apparently need more than just the angel's interpretation on it ...

Of course, I could be wrong. But it's the above sort of interpretive problems that remain unresolved which maintain the ongoing publishing of many Christian books on Biblical Hermeneutics and Exegesis.

 

[dwb001]

Here's an exegetical question for you since you've been asking for questions: if the angel already interpreted for John the meaning of the Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns, then ... which political powers in the world do the seven heads and ten horns represent, and when are they to be, or have been, manifested in history?

Not in history.

The reason I'm asking this question is to shed some light for us on the fact that there is, I think, obviously some additional exegetical and hermeneutical thinking that has to be applied for further understanding (which is further need for additional interpretation since it doesn't seem clear to me).

You will know it when you see it.

When I read Revelation chapter 13 and 17, I tend to think the reference is to what we generally think of today as "Europe." But oddly, there are Christian scholars out there now you have dropped the Hal Lindsey schtick and see the Beast as the "Word of Islam" instead. So, who is right? We apparently need more than just the angel's interpretation on it ...

You do realize that Rev 13+17 are two different beasts, right? Until you can get that right there will be some confusion.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Yes... you definitely can be wrong. I won't take that away from you.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Not in history.

Well then, if God has given you understanding where all the rest of us are still lacking, please fill us in.

You will know it when you see it.

I'm sure we all will.

You do realize that Rev 13+17 are two different beasts, right? Until you can get that right there will be some confusion.

That may be, but keep in mind just how much I've studied this: there are a host of Christian scholars on biblical prophecy and the end times who disagree with you (by which I mean to refer to all of those books---many I have read---in my list I shared earlier).

Yes... you definitely can be wrong. I won't take that away from you.

Well, at least we have you to shed some more light on it for the rest of us. God bless you in that endeavor.

 

[dwb001]

Well then, if God has given you understanding where all the rest of us are still lacking, please fill us in.

I never said that. But you may be right.
Would you accept what i say a special understanding from God if i did share my thoughts?

I'm sure we all will.

So why did you just ask for a sneak peek?

That may be, but keep in mind just how much I've studied this: there are a host of Christian scholars on biblical prophecy and the end times who disagree with you (by which I mean to refer to all of those books---many I have read---in my list I shared earlier).

Ok..so many people can be wrong about a topic? That is not a valid defense. Many times the truth comes from the minority and sometimes from the one.

Well, at least we have you to shed some more light on it for the rest of us. God bless you in that endeavor.

So now you are claiming that I am the one who holds the truth? Your idea not mine. I just wanted to see who here was open minded... very few people like that here though.

 

[Mr E]

Well then, if God has given you understanding where all the rest of us are still lacking, please fill us in.

I'm sure we all will.

That may be, but keep in mind just how much I've studied this: there are a host of Christian scholars on biblical prophecy and the end times who disagree with you (by which I mean to refer to all of those books---many I have read---in my list I shared earlier).


Well, at least we have you to shed some more light on it for the rest of us. God bless you in that endeavor.

Our friend makes a serious error, whether in arrogance or out of ignorance, the error is the same. He thinks that merely understanding the words is enough. I could point to any of the prophets who saw things and understood exactly what they saw and certainly they had no trouble putting into words those things they saw. Understanding the words was never the problem. Understanding the meaning always was the issue. The things they saw always needed interpretation to gain understanding. It had to be explained to them. Revealed to them.

For goodness sake-- it's the Revelation of Jesus Christ.... the things God showed him to reveal to his servant John which he did via angelic messenger in a vision. It was no different for Daniel-

Then in a night vision the mystery was revealed to Daniel. So Daniel praised the God of heaven, saying:

“Let the name of God be praised forever and ever, for wisdom and power belong to him.
He changes times and seasons, deposing some kings and establishing others.
He gives wisdom to the wise; he imparts knowledge to those with understanding; he reveals deep and hidden things. He knows what is in the darkness, and light resides with him.
O God of my fathers, I acknowledge and glorify you, for you have bestowed wisdom and power on me.
Now you have enabled me to understand what we requested from you.
For you have enabled us to understand the king’s dilemma.”

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I never said that. But you may be right.
Would you accept what i say a special understanding from God if i did share my thoughts?

Perhaps. But would you accept what I say as a special understanding from God as well?

So why did you just ask for a sneak peek?

I think we all already have a "sneak peek." It's just that we're all trying to figure out where the "sneak peek" peaks ...

Ok..so many people can be wrong about a topic? That is not a valid defense. Many times the truth comes from the minority and sometimes from the one.

I don't know if everyone is wrong on a topic. There may be some scholars on my list who might agree with you. It's not as if all of the biblical scholars on my list agree with other. Did you even look at my list or just ignore completely?

So now you are claiming that I am the one who holds the truth? Your idea not mine. I just wanted to see who here was open minded... very few people like that here though.

I have no idea who holds the ABSOLUTE TRUTH where the book of Revelation is concerned. I assume we all get it a bit wrong since it's not so clear.

I mean, you originally asked "Who here feels they have their own unique view of Eschatology?" I said I do. And while I'm open to hearing what others have to say because I always have done so, I still have my own view on it all. I'm not just going to drop it like a hot potato because someone else has a different view and demands that I realize that I'm wrong. Conversely, I could just as similarly demand they drop their view because they may be wrong. But I don't demand that.

 

[dwb001]

Our friend makes a serious error, whether in arrogance or out of ignorance, the error is the same. He thinks that merely understanding the words is enough. I could point to any of the prophets who saw things and understood exactly what they saw and certainly they had no trouble putting into words those things they saw. Understanding the words was never the problem. Understanding the meaning always was the issue. The things they saw always needed interpretation to gain understanding. It had to be explained to them. Revealed to them.

For goodness sake-- it's the Revelation of Jesus Christ.... the things God showed him to reveal to his servant John which he did via angelic messenger in a vision. It was no different for Daniel-

Then in a night vision the mystery was revealed to Daniel. So Daniel praised the God of heaven, saying:

“Let the name of God be praised forever and ever, for wisdom and power belong to him.
He changes times and seasons, deposing some kings and establishing others.
He gives wisdom to the wise; he imparts knowledge to those with understanding; he reveals deep and hidden things. He knows what is in the darkness, and light resides with him.
O God of my fathers, I acknowledge and glorify you, for you have bestowed wisdom and power on me.
Now you have enabled me to understand what we requested from you.
For you have enabled us to understand the king’s dilemma.”

If I interpret Revelation for you... I am giving you my words for what God said.

Your interpretation is your words for what God said.

Why not let God use His own words?
Are you afraid that God might contradict you?

An interpretation usually comes with huge amounts of ego baggage. Leave your ego at the door and let God speak.

 

[Douggg]

When I read Revelation chapter 13 and 17, I tend to think the reference is to what we generally think of today as "Europe."

I agree.

You do realize that Rev 13+17 are two different beasts, right? Until you can get that right there will be some confusion.

The beast with seven heads and ten horns in Revelation 12, 13, 17 is the same beast. But at different points of time in history, which can be determined by crowns/no crowns on the heads and horns.

Revelation 17 - first century, no crowns on either the heads, nor horns. Their completed fulfillment to be in the end times.

Revelation 12 - 7 years to go in Revelation 12:6-17, crowns on the seven heads (meaning king 7 has come to power, completing the prophecy of the 7 kings), no crowns on the ten horns (because the king 7 has not become king 8, the beast king)

Revelation 13 - 42 months to go in Revelation 13:5, no crowns of the seven heads, one head mortally wounded but come back to life (meaning the prophecy of the 7 kings over, one of the heads - king 7 - has been mortally wounded, but come back to life as the beast king, king 8), crowns on the ten horns (because the ten kings rule with the beast king for one hour, having given their kingdom over to him)

 

[dwb001]

Perhaps. But would you accept what I say as a special understanding from God as well?

Have you claimed that?
I would teat everything you say against the Book.

I think we all already have a "sneak peek." It's just that we're all trying to figure out where the "sneak peek" peaks ...

I don't know if everyone is wrong on a topic. There may be some scholars on my list who might agree with you. It's not as if all of the biblical scholars on my list agree with other. Did you even look at my list or just ignore completely?

Is there disagreement... then someone is wrong. I am engaging with people on this site... not books on a shelf.

I have no idea who holds the ABSOLUTE TRUTH where the book of Revelation is concerned. I assume we all get it a bit wrong since it's not so clear.

God does. It is very clear.

I mean, you originally asked "Who here feels they have their own unique view of Eschatology?" I said I do. And while I'm open to hearing what others have to say because I always have done so, I still have my own view on it all. I'm not just going to drop it like a hot potato because someone else has a different view and demands that I realize that I'm wrong. Conversely, I could just as similarly demand they drop their view because they may be wrong. But I don't demand that.

I have not demanded anything either. So that is a void argument.

 

[Mr E]

If I interpret Revelation for you... I am giving you my words for what God said.

Your interpretation is your words for what God said.

Why not let God use His own words?
Are you afraid that God might contradict you?

An interpretation usually comes with huge amounts of ego baggage. Leave your ego at the door and let God speak.

When and where did anyone participating in this discussion ever suggest not using scripture as the foundation. How many examples do you need of things recorded in scripture, where you will understand each and every word, yet have NO IDEA what it is referring to?

I'm here all day.

 

[dwb001]

I agree.


The beast with seven heads and ten horns in Revelation 12, 13, 17 is the same beast. But at different points of time in history, which can be determined by crowns/no crowns on the heads and horns.

Revelation 17 - first century, no crowns on either the heads, nor horns.

Revelation 12 - 7 years to go in Revelation 12:6-17, crowns on the seven heads (meaning king 7 has come to power, completing the prophecy of the 7 kings), no crowns on the ten horns (because the king 7 has not become king 8, the beast king)

Revelation 13 - 42 months to go in Revelation 13:5, no crowns of the seven heads, one head mortally wound but come back to life (meaning the prophecy of the 7 kings over, one of the heads - king 7 - has been mortally wounded, but come back to life as the beast king, king 8), crowns on the ten horns (because the ten kings rule with beast king for one hour, having given their kingdom over to him)

Interesting way to look at it... it sure does not read that way to me though.

 

[dwb001]

When and where did anyone participating in this discussion ever suggest not using scripture as the foundation. How many examples do you need of things recorded in scripture, where you will understand each and every word, yet have NO IDEA what it is referring to?

I'm here all day.

I don't see the point you are making... it sounds like you are arguing with your self and not me.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Have you claimed that?
I would teat everything you say against the Book.

I haven't claimed it yet. But I also don't claim to be a modern Christian "prophet." We already have a glut of such individuals, especially in the U.S.

But who knows? Maybe my interpretation about the meaning of 666 is correct. Maybe it's not. Maybe my Pre-mill view of Eschatology is wrong; but then again only the Lord knows. Maybe I'm getting some things in Eschatology right. Either way, the more important thing to me is to rationally and prayerfully fellowship with other Trinitarian Christians around the world as .... we all move through God's History.

Is there disagreement... then someone is wrong. I am engaging with people on this site... not books on a shelf.

Books on a shelf are written and put out into the world for reference..........................get this!.............................by Real Christian People ™, just like you and me. But instead of simply spieling on a public forum, they spiel in a book they've written.

God does. It is very clear.

Obviously God does. I agree. And neither you nor I are God.

I have not demanded anything either. So that is a void argument.

Then why have your additional concern about whether the rest of us not only have our own "unique eschatology," but also as to whether or not we're "willing to change our minds" about it.

I get it, though. You just want to be heard and listened to. Well, on some level, we all do.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I agree.


The beast with seven heads and ten horns in Revelation 12, 13, 17 is the same beast. But at different points of time in history, which can be determined by crowns/no crowns on the heads and horns.

Revelation 17 - first century, no crowns on either the heads, nor horns. Their completed fulfillment to be in the end times.

Revelation 12 - 7 years to go in Revelation 12:6-17, crowns on the seven heads (meaning king 7 has come to power, completing the prophecy of the 7 kings), no crowns on the ten horns (because the king 7 has not become king 8, the beast king)

Revelation 13 - 42 months to go in Revelation 13:5, no crowns of the seven heads, one head mortally wounded but come back to life (meaning the prophecy of the 7 kings over, one of the heads - king 7 - has been mortally wounded, but come back to life as the beast king, king 8), crowns on the ten horns (because the ten kings rule with the beast king for one hour, having given their kingdom over to him)

That may be, Doug. But I was conjecturing in my post above with another poster. And let's not derail this thread from the main focus of the OP.

Thanks, brother!

 

[Mr E]

I don't see the point you are making... it sounds like you are arguing with your self and not me.

You have proposed that the words are so plain that no interpretation is needed. I'll throw you a bone....

What is the sign of Jonah?

You do understand the question, right? You understand the words-- "Sign of Jonah" -- so what is it? Your premise is that when the words are plain and understood, no interpretation is required so explain.

I mean.... I'll postulate that this is the sign of Jonah..... prove me wrong.

 

[Mr E]

I haven't claimed it yet. But I also don't claim to be a modern Christian "prophet." We already have a glut of such individuals, especially in the U.S.

But who knows? Maybe my interpretation about the meaning of 666 is correct. Maybe it's not. Maybe my Pre-mill view of Eschatology is wrong; but then again only the Lord knows. Maybe I'm getting some things in Eschatology right. Either way, the more important thing to me is to rationally and prayerfully fellowship with other Trinitarian Christians around the world as .... we all move through God's History.

Books on a shelf are written and put out into the world for reference..........................get this!.............................by Real Christian People ™, just like you and me. But instead of simply spieling on a public forum, they spiel in a book they've written.

Obviously God does. I agree. And neither you nor I are God.


Then why have your additional concern about whether the rest of us not only have our own "unique eschatology," but also as to whether or not we're "willing to change our minds" about it.

I get it, though. You just want to be heard and listened to. Well, on some level, we all do.

Great observations. He's sly though. He's a school-girl with a secret he wants to tell, but he wants you to beg him to tell, before he will tell.