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Any Methodist Churches that don't allow....

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circuitrider

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Oh, on the subject of women in ministry and being "watered down." Can you give some examples of how the mainstream churches have "watered down" something?

As to women in ministry, I'm not going to argue with you here about something that is settled Wesleyan doctrine. This forum is for Wesleyan Christians, not for others to show up and try to argue us out of our beliefs (which we frankly get too of much here despite it being against the rules.)

Women being as clergy is accepted now by the majority of Protestant mainstream churches, that is the original churches that many of the others have split off of over the years as well as just about every Wesleyan body out there. We've had women clergy for many years. It isn't a new or recent doctrine.
 
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James Is Back

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Mod Hat On

Thread has undergone a cleanup due to Congregational rule violation so if your post that is the reason or you quoted someone that did. If you don't share the core beliefs of the Methodists you can't teach or debate here.

Mod Hat Off
 
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RomansFiveEight

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I think it would mean that if you are a practicing homosexual you would be denied the sacrament.

Most Wesleyan understandings include open communion. I'm not sure why you think God's grace means telling everyone you disagree with that they aren't allowed to experience God's grace is in any way biblical. Sinners alike are welcome at the table in most Wesleyan denominations, certainly in the UMC.
 
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GracetotheHumble

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Most Wesleyan understandings include open communion. I'm not sure why you think God's grace means telling everyone you disagree with that they aren't allowed to experience God's grace is in any way biblical. Sinners alike are welcome at the table in most Wesleyan denominations, certainly in the UMC.

Maybe we should allow serial killers who are continuing to murder and live in sin the sacrament as well.

The sacrament is for sinners who repent and are sorry for their sins not for homosexuals who are currently living in open rebellion.
 
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RomansFiveEight

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The sacrament is not a treat for being good. It's not some prize for the holy. It's not some delicacy for the righteous. It's sustenance that all human kind needs, it's transformative, and it can be a source of Grace.

Yes, the serial killer should take communion. Repentant or not. Just like the people in my pews every day who have unrepentant sin of Greed (I earned it), lust (I'm only human), gluttony (It's just one more slice), or taking communion in an unworthy manner (shuffling up and gobbling it up and checking their watch to make sure it doesn't run too long).

We all have unrepentant sin. We have sins that we don't fully comprehend. We have sins we aren't willing to repent of because we think we're in the right. And yet Grace is extended to us, as well.

God's grace is universal and available to all. He calls us to repentance and communion is a place where we can experience that call; it's not a treat for those who have already done it.

The church needs a lot less "prerequisite" and a lot more Grace.
 
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circuitrider

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If sinners can't take communion than there will be no one left to serve and no pastor to officiate. And if you are going to tell me that at every moment of every day you are fully repentant of all of your sinfulness I'm going to cry foul. Because I don't believe it.

There are also many of us, BTW GraceToTheHumble who do not believe being gay is a sin any more than being born with blue eyes is a sin.
 
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FireDragon76

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As Billy Graham said, "It is the Holy Spirit's job to convict, God's job to judge and my job to love"

In the end, repentance is about a trusting relationship and receiving grace with empty hands, not legalism. No work we do, not even living a righteous, obedient life, earns us grace. God gives grace freely to those who do not deserve it. That is the whole Gospel in Romans right there.

Homosexuality has been a charged topic, some people feel it is an especially egregious sin. This is partly due to our culture changing during the Victorian era and the rise of psychology, which stigmatized gay people as especially "deviant", a different kind of person altogether from "normal". But it's also partly due to a misunderstanding of sin that goes back to some of the Puritans who believed in strict enforcement of what they saw as God's law. Prior to this, in Christendom, homosexual acts were not considered especially sinful anymore than any other sexual sin. But the Puritans, who had a legalistic, theocratic interpretation of God's law, imposed the death penalty for "sodomy" (and many other sins), as illict sex acts were called, on the English people, whereas the Romans and Byzantines who were Christians often ignored it as a civil crime, and the only Church penalties (penances) were much less than sins like abortion or adultery.

The word "Sodomy" is really a misnomer, too. The sexual crimes of sodomy are not the ones the prophets or God emphasize, it's the unfriendly attitude in a culture that valued hospitality. Our culture is biased to see sexual sins as especially egregious, much moreso than the authors of the Bible would recognize. See this book for more information on the subject: http://www.amazon.com/Misreading-Scripture-Western-Eyes-Understand/dp/0830837825
 
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RomansFiveEight

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FireDragon you're right. Our fascination with and hyper-focusness on sexual sin is relatively new. The reason why there are only a handful of passages in the new testament related to marriage and sex is because it was not the end-all be-all issue that it is today. Heck, marriage in the first century was mostly about property (yes, property) and had little resemblance at all to marriage today. Early Christian leaders, even Martin Luther and some earlier Roman Catholic theologians and leaders, actually opposed marriage in the church. They viewed it as the state usurping the churches authority because marriage was a state function. Fast forward a couple hundred years and now it's the total opposite; many Christians believe marriage is an expressly religious institution and the state has no authority there. (And if you agree with that then you must support the SCOTUS opinion because, frankly, freedom of religion means everyone is free to practice religion; meaning the dozens of faith traditions who celebrate gay marriage have the right to do so and not have it banned by a state pandering to evangelical Christianity).

Our enamoration with sexual sin needs to be checked somehow. It's amazing the incredible number of sins Jesus himself fought against in the first century are easily dismissed as irrelevant by almost all Christians, including the most hardened evangelicals (like gluttony and greed and failing to feed our neighbors; we pass it off as being about who deserves what, as if Jesus ever cared whether someone deserved to be poor or not; his concern was whether they were eating, not whether they worked for their meal). And yet we hyper-focus on a series of things that some understand as sin as the most important issue in all of Christianity that were essentially non-issues until the last several decades.

And, as Timothy mentioned, there are many Christians, and have been for decades; including some major Christian denominations (UCC, TEC, a number of UMC congregations, to name a few) who do not view homosexuality as incompatible with Christian teachings. In much the same way as they no longer follow Biblical mandates that a rape victim should marry her attacker; they understand Biblical guidelines for marriage and sex to be culturally impacted and demand interpretation. (And ALL Christians do this, whether they admit it or not. Some don't like to admit that they can dismiss or explain away a number of sexual, marital, and gender 'sins' laid out in the scripture as abominations or inappropriate, but hold fast to passages about homosexuality. Largely because we humans are hugely affected by culture and since those issues aren't major cultural issues, they are easy to dismiss.) And this isn't "new" either. Some have had that theology for decades. Even in a time when homosexuality was illegal and you could be jailed for it, there were major Christian denominations thinking they should have equal rights under the law and could be married.
 
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circuitrider

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Well said RF8.

And before someone says, "I want Biblical marriage." Please tell me which model of Biblical marriage?

In the Bible marriages were arranged by parents. The woman had little or no rights. Multiple wives were common in the OT.

Marriage was very different in the middle east from what we practice today.
 
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RomansFiveEight

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Well said RF8.

And before someone says, "I want Biblical marriage." Please tell me which model of Biblical marriage?

In the Bible marriages were arranged by parents. The woman had little or no rights. Multiple wives were common in the OT.

Marriage was very different in the middle east from what we practice today.

Yep! As I said, it was all about property. Women were owned by men. Be it a brother or a father, or whatever male was deemed to have authority over a woman. If a father died she fell to her brothers; occasionally, a father would give his sons one of his daughters as a gift. Not in a sexual/creepy way, but, seriously, as property he could sell. That was first century marriage. That's why the penalty for raping a virgin is a fine and marriage. You have 'destroyed' a mans property and must pay him for the reduced value of his asset, and must marry her which would bar you from marrying anyone else and force the rapist to care for her. Yep, she would be married to her rapist, by law. Raping a married woman was a death penalty. All about property.

The really scary thing, is that women who could write in that time period would occasionally write in journals or tell friends that they secretly WISHED to be raped or kidnapped. Because at least then it would be someone who desired her and not just someone who could afford her! SERIOUSLY! Often parents of a son would buy him a wife, or he would establish himself in a job until he could afford a wife. Among the poor, marriages were arranged mutually by parents or a father might simply send his daughters off to whatever working man he could find. And that might mean his 13 year old daughter being sent off to a 45 year old laborer. Women were eligible to be married when they started ovulating. Men typically married a little later, again, because it was generally expected that they be established before marrying (though not always the case).

Disgusted yet? Seriously. Marriage today (courting, falling in love, having a wedding in a church) and Marriage in the Bible (property rights, you were 'engaged' until you had sex, at which point you were 'married'. A wedding ceremony was rare and mostly just for the rich) are not anywhere close. Two entirely different things. We MUST understand that before discussing the issue of marriage today.
 
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FireDragon76

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Early Christian leaders, even Martin Luther and some earlier Roman Catholic theologians and leaders, actually opposed marriage in the church.

The emphasis on marriage as a sacrament, a means of sanctification is pretty much ignored from what I've seen (and no wonder given the divorce rates in our culture, few people really want to admit divorce is a sacrilege, and not just some kind of broken legal contract). Indeed, the only place I've seen a strongly sacramental view of marriage used in Protestant circles was in the Episcopal Church's recent study on the matter- and it was not used by the conservative traditionalists in that argument, but by the revisionists, deriving a lot of their theology from the Eastern Orthodox understanding of marriage as sanctification.

In the orthodox church, a tradition less influenced by western views of sexuality, they tend to teach that sexual sins are some of the least. The more dangerous sins are the ones that are less fleshly. They are the sins that we don't want to acknowledge because they have more to do with our ego. We're talking about pride, narcissism, hypocrisy, that sort of thing. Those are particularly dangerous now days because we live in a culture that celebrates the self so much.
 
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Destiny2015

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If sinners can't take communion than there will be no one left to serve and no pastor to officiate. And if you are going to tell me that at every moment of every day you are fully repentant of all of your sinfulness I'm going to cry foul. Because I don't believe it.

Granted, no UMC I've been to in the past 20 years follows any kind of liturgy, but I guess we can just dispose of that messy little part "who earnestly repent of their sin and seek to live in peace with one another" now.
 
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FireDragon76

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The issue of homosexuality and women being pastors comes down to how we understand what it means to be human, and "complimentarity" (the idea that there are essential differences between men and women), and as far as I can tell most mainline Protestants for some time have been moving away from the idea that God created men and women with immutable, essential differences.

Indeed, there are theological issues with acknowledging anything like "complimentarity" because we believe that all people are saved through Christ as God assumed human nature, and yet Christ was not "transgedered" in doing so, he was (and still is) a man, and yet he saved both men and women by assuming human nature, indicating that human nature is neither "male nor female". So, therefore a man or a woman can represent Christ as a pastor or minister, because we all have that redeemed human nature regardless of our gender. This also potentially plays out in how we view sexuality, because it tends to undermine gender complimentarity: that men and women are essentially different.
 
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circuitrider

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FireDragon, I'd even venture that most Methodists wouldn't even know what you are talking about if you used the term "complimentarianism" that I hear conservative evangelicals use.

We teach that marriage is an equal partnership. No one teaches in the UMC some form of subordinationism either.
 
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FireDragon76

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I don't think the Bible says men and women are completely interchangeable but the idea that men and women are essentially different predates Christianity and goes back to Aristotle and other Greeks. Aristotle saw women as defective men. The Bible and Christian tradition don't support that viewpoint, so I tend to see some complimentarian emphases as a deformation.
 
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GracetotheHumble

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I'm going to bow out of this discussion and leave you to your beliefs.

I would appreciate it if the moderators would close this thread.

I did not begin this discussion so that others could support the sinful homosexual agenda.

My Father summed it up quite perfectly tonight when he stated to me, "They are in darkness".
 
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circuitrider

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GracetotheHumble, not your forum, not your call.

Actually what you've started the thread to do was to look for a church where people don't have or support human equality. Thankfully, for most things, that isn't Wesleyan or Methodist. We are still working on the issue of LGBT folks and we have different opinions.

But we are quite sure that our daughters are just as good as our sons and that are women are loved by God just as much as our men and that God calls whom God wills.

We tried to be helpful without calling you a bigot. It is a shame you couldn't lend people you disagree the same courtesy without relegating us to "darkness."
 
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