Any Methodist Churches that don't allow....

[FireDragon76]

No, I mean homosexual members. My LCMS Church does not allow members to be homosexual.

Are they distinguishing between being a practicing homosexual or having a homosexual orientation?

I have known of several people that were gay and attending LCMS churches. It really comes down to the pastor and how they apply the Law (specifically the Third Use and how much they are "fruit inspectors"). Lutherans in general have a unique view of ethics and the Law of God and how is used, one that is very distinct from the broad Evangelical and Pentecostal world. Now, the LCMS is not what it used to be, and is increasingly influenced by Neo-Reformed and Baptist thought, but that doesn't change the fact that Lutherans traditionally rejected moralism and legalism.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

As far as I can tell the LCMS makes no allowances for homosexuality and clearly calls it sin.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

The Southern Methodist Church. Their homepage is currently down but I think they would fit the bill.

I did some research into it and the Southern Methodist Church does indeed fit the description of what I am looking for in a congregation. I have not located one in my area thus far.

 

[circuitrider]

I did some research into it and the Southern Methodist Church does indeed fit the description of what I am looking for in a congregation. I have not located one in my area thus far.

I'm afraid they only have about 100 churches as they were the remnants of the churches that refused to merge with the rest of the Methodists in 1939.

Oh, and I be a little worried about a denomination whose national webpage goes defunct. Might not be many of these folks around.

 

[ContraMundum]

I did some research into it and the Southern Methodist Church does indeed fit the description of what I am looking for in a congregation. I have not located one in my area thus far.

Plant one! In your case I would.

 

[ContraMundum]

I'm afraid they only have about 100 churches as they were the remnants of the churches that refused to merge with the rest of the Methodists in 1939.

100 is not a bad size for a denomination to be fair. The bigger the worst IMHO.

 

[circuitrider]

Plant one! In your case I would.

LOL, you can't just go start a Methodist church. Methodists are connectional. You have to be part of a Methodist denomination already to be involved in starting a Methodist church.

Also I can't imagine and going and starting a church with one the main emphases being not having women clergy. You need some positive reason(s) to start a church.

You can tell by the size of the Southern Methodists (101 churches) that that there isn't a big market for that kind of church.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

I'm afraid they only have about 100 churches as they were the remnants of the churches that refused to merge with the rest of the Methodists in 1939.

Oh, and I be a little worried about a denomination whose national webpage goes defunct. Might not be many of these folks around.

Yes, it seems that they probably don't have one in my area. There website being down is a very bad sign.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

I just received another email from them. All of their churches are in the South. Their website is currently being reconstructed he claimed. But he did direct me to the Association of Independent Methodists.

 

[circuitrider]

GracetotheHumble,

You have to go where you feel led of course. But I might suggest you consider a conservative Wesleyan leaning church like the Nazarene Church or the Wesleyan Church.

While it is true they can have women clergy you might want to decide if this really has to be a deal breaker for you on joining. I've never been in any church where I agreed with anyone 100%.

Also, just for thought, if all of the Wesleyan denominations have women clergy maybe that might tell you something. It means that Methodists/Wesleyans really do see it as Biblical.

 

[circuitrider]

Independent Methodists has to be an oxymoron if I ever heard one. That would be like "baby sprinkling Baptists."

IMHO you can't take one of the main Methodist distinctives out of Methodism and it still be Methodism. Part of what makes it Methodist is that it follows the Methodist method. That method of doing things is called connectionalism. If you aren't connectional you aren't Methodist.

 

[circuitrider]

You might want to check this out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Independent_Methodists

 

[circuitrider]

One last bit of information. There appear to only be 22 churches in the Association of Independent Methodists.

I know you list yourself as a Christian Seeker. So take this advice for what it is worth. But there is a fair chance that any denomination with less than 100 churches is not mainstream. They are likely to believe some strange things that don't match what most Christians believe because they were an oddball split off of the normal larger mainstream denomination they came from.

So when over 50,000 Methodist churches affiliated with the UMC, AME and the CME believe in connectional church and a handful of little split groups with with 100 churches or less don't you can bet the bigger group is following the original teachings of that denomination and you should beware of the tiny fractures.

There are a number of ways that Christians can tell they are on track theologically. One is certainly direct reading of the Bible. But the other is to look at what the historic teachings of the Church have been through out the ages. I'd be very worried about joining some church that disagrees historic Christianity and I'd be very careful about joining some church that disagrees with 90+% of the denomination it came from.

 

[ContraMundum]

LOL, you can't just go start a Methodist church. Methodists are connectional. You have to be part of a Methodist denomination already to be involved in starting a Methodist church.

OBVIOUSLY.

*face palm*

Also I can't imagine and going and starting a church with one the main emphases being not having women clergy. You need some positive reason(s) to start a church.

You can tell by the size of the Southern Methodists (101 churches) that that there isn't a big market for that kind of church.

a) It's not about the "market"- it's about one's convictions about the Gospel. You don't have to be popular to be successful for the Gospel.

b) Obviously you've never been part of a church plant. I've yet to see anyone sit down and say "hey- they don't like what we say over there...let's not do it". It only takes two or three core families to get a church rolling.

 

[circuitrider]

It only takes a few families to get an independent church going. But I don't believe free standing independent churches are Biblical model for the Church and neither do most Wesleyan Christians. You'll notice that even though our more conservative Wesleyan groups have churches that are more autonomous none of them believe churches should just go off by themselves.

My statements about numbers has nothing to do with "Market." It has to do with the odds that a little splinter denomination has weird doctrinal views that likely don't fit historic Christianity if there are only a few churches that teach that viewpoint.

In fact this is one of the huge problems with small independent churches. The doctrines often just weird. The other problem is that trouble makers and people who want power often gravitate to independent churches and little tiny church groups because they can gain and wield power being a big fish in a small pond. I've seen more than one such little church with a power hungry pastor or a divisive congregation.

If your goal is to find a church that you agree with 100% then you are missing the point. The purpose of being in the body of Christ isn't to all create a little church that agrees with me.

 

[ContraMundum]

I know you list yourself as a Christian Seeker. So take this advice for what it is worth. But there is a fair chance that any denomination with less than 100 churches is not mainstream. They are likely to believe some strange things that don't match what most Christians believe because they were an oddball split off of the normal larger mainstream denomination they came from.

I can't believe you think the "mainstream" is de facto usually correct. I'd suggest that these days, it's the wide road, not the narrow path. Some people find the mainstream rather watered down, compromised and increasingly disconnected from society and irrelevant to the Gospel. The ordination of homosexuals is a deal-breaker for millions of Christians. Likewise the ordination of women- still more Christians stand opposed to that than for it. So one man's mainstream is another man's heterodox church.

As a Methodist yourself, you would have to agree that the first Methodists were hardly so eager to appeal to the mainstream as a measure of true theology or praxis. They were not as risk averse as some today are and would gladly wear shame for the spread of the Gospel and "scriptural holiness".

The OP'er certainly doesn't seem as enamored with the majority liberal mainline as you might hope, and I don't think the condescending tone of this post will change his doctrinal convictions. He's looking outside of your mainstream because he has beliefs of his own.

One thing I found very interesting- the Southern Methodist Church has the original, very same statements and standards of the American Methodists of the past. So, if they're "wrong" or "oddball", then obviously your own church is based upon "wrong" and "oddball" doctrine.

 

[ContraMundum]

It only takes a few families to get an independent church going. But I don't believe free standing independent churches are Biblical model for the Church and neither do most Wesleyan Christians. You'll notice that even though our more conservative Wesleyan groups have churches that are more autonomous none of them believe churches should just go off by themselves.

I think you're jumping the gun all over the place here...you're making a lot of assertions about points that no one has raised. No one is suggesting starting a new denomination. It was never raised.

My statements about numbers has nothing to do with "Market." It has to do with the odds that a little splinter denomination has weird doctrinal views that likely don't fit historic Christianity if there are only a few churches that teach that viewpoint.

I can't believe you have such an opinion about what constitutes being connectional. It's a very permeable term, actually. How many congregations does it take to have a connexion? Mathematically, two. That's how Methodism got started- one society, then two, then ten, then hundreds....get the picture? Every movement in Church history- from the calling of the Disciples until now, started small.

As for using a term "historic Christianity" to bludgeon people into shirking from their convictions, that is a term I would suggest you use rather sparingly in discussion at CF- because most people would say people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Here's an exercise for you- go over to General Theology and tell everyone that the UMC represents "historic Christianity". See how you get on!

In fact this is one of the huge problems with small independent churches. The doctrines often just weird. The other problem is that trouble makers and people who want power often gravitate to independent churches and little tiny church groups because they can gain and wield power being a big fish in a small pond. I've seen more than one such little church with a power hungry pastor or a divisive congregation.

The same dynamic exists in large denominations. It's the human condition. I've seen large denominations absolutely destroy people. I've had to counsel people who were spiritually abused by them.

If your goal is to find a church that you agree with 100% then you are missing the point. The purpose of being in the body of Christ isn't to all create a little church that agrees with me.

I don't think anyone is saying the opposite- why bring it up?

 

[GracetotheHumble]

One last bit of information. There appear to only be 22 churches in the Association of Independent Methodists.

I know you list yourself as a Christian Seeker. So take this advice for what it is worth. But there is a fair chance that any denomination with less than 100 churches is not mainstream. They are likely to believe some strange things that don't match what most Christians believe because they were an oddball split off of the normal larger mainstream denomination they came from.

So when over 50,000 Methodist churches affiliated with the UMC, AME and the CME believe in connectional church and a handful of little split groups with with 100 churches or less don't you can bet the bigger group is following the original teachings of that denomination and you should beware of the tiny fractures.

There are a number of ways that Christians can tell they are on track theologically. One is certainly direct reading of the Bible. But the other is to look at what the historic teachings of the Church have been through out the ages. I'd be very worried about joining some church that disagrees historic Christianity and I'd be very careful about joining some church that disagrees with 90+% of the denomination it came from.

Bigger doesn't necessarily mean better. Many large churches doctrines are so diluted that I would consider them lost. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for example is the 4th largest denomination in the United States but they are extremely confused concerning doctrine.

Everything being said I have decided that I am going to continue on in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, I am happy there. I have been studying the Theology of the Cross since I first posted this and I have become much more comfortable about going there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology_of_the_Cross

Also the Roman Catholic Church is the largest church in the world and they do not ordain women. So to use your Churches size to support it's dogma is just not right.

 

[ContraMundum]

There are a number of ways that Christians can tell they are on track theologically. One is certainly direct reading of the Bible. But the other is to look at what the historic teachings of the Church have been through out the ages. I'd be very worried about joining some church that disagrees historic Christianity and I'd be very careful about joining some church that disagrees with 90+% of the denomination it came from.

I hope you're not painting the SMC, or the Nazarenes or the Wesleyans into that picture, 'cos it sure sounds like you are. I think you'd be hard pressed to put them into that category.

 

[circuitrider]

I'm just trying to help someone who is looking for a church know what to look for. One of the things to look for is if a church is out of the mainstream of its denominational family.

You've misunderstood Methodism if you think that we have beliefs that are very different from the Anglican Church we came from. We don't. Our articles of religion are from the Anglican articles. John Wesley never left the Anglican Church.

Methodism became its own church out of necessity because of the Revolutionary War cutting us off from receiving Anglican clergy. We in fact are in conversation for full communion with the Episcopal Church in the US. The Methodists in England have considered rejoining the Church of England.

Methodism is an emphasis of holiness not a change from Anglican doctrine.

There are real dangers to joining unaffiliated churches and little splinter groups that left a denomination. Again, if only a tiny group split off odds are they believe something outside of the mainstream of the denominational family.

Yes, the Southern Methodists have the same Articles of Religion that the UMC does as part of its doctrine. But there has to be a difference of views for a split. It must be an uncommon difference or more churches would have gone with them.

As to "narrow the way etc." that is comparing unbelief to Christianity. You can't use that text to support different Christian denominations.

Many of these splinter groups are fundamentalist. The Association of Independent Methodists on one of its pages says that it believes in the inerrancy of the Bible. That isn't a Methodist doctrine. It was invented long after Wesley was dead. At least in this they have added to Methodist doctrine.

Many fundamentalist groups like to use the idea of a "righteous remnant" to support the idea that the smaller they are the more right they are. That doesn't hold any water Biblically. Almost everyone believes 1+1=2. Does it make you right if you are the one person that believes it is 3? Of course not.

Size doesn't mean you are right or wrong. But a very very small denominational group should be a red flag you should check before you join their church because it at least sometimes means they believe something unusual that you may want to know about.