Any Christians here not believe in hell?

[MattRose]

I've read many times here and other places that some christians don't believe in a literal hell. As the bible clearly mentions hell several times, I'm curious as to how a devout christian could deny the existence of hell.

 

[Mr Dave]

Depends what you mean by Hell, hehe
There are many Christians who don't believe in a 'mediaeval Hell' of eternal punishment in fire with lots of unending tortures going on, but this isn't the same as out-right denying a place that in English is called 'Hell' (I find the word fairly loaded, and some Bibles use it for Gehenna and Hades, others just for Gehenna, and the KJV (I think) for Genhenna, Hades and Sheol Gehenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

Here's a post within a thread on the topic http://www.christianforums.com/t7477943-8/#post55255568

 

[MattRose]

The quotes I've read say that the torment is eternal. I did check that thread you mentioned and they are skipping the quotes (from the bible) that say it's real and eternal punishment.

Daniel 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake – some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence.

Matthew 25:46 And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name

 

[Mr Dave]

Amongst all the passages that speak of 'the negative afterlife' those that explicitly state eternal punishment are in the minority; you have two and one that implies it

Here's me discussing Matthew 25:46 in a different thread. (http://www.christianforums.com/t5670399-6/#post55490239) My (brief) discussion of αἰωνίου works for Daniel too, as this word is used in the LXX in the Daniel verse, and carries the same connotations (to the best of knowledge) as the original Hebrew.

It may be worth reading on a bit as well from that post as you may come up with the same questions that the others in the thread did (not that I'm not happy to discuss my views with you, I am).


If you fancy a read to take up your evening there's this thread too, http://www.christianforums.com/t7491483/

 

[Mr Dave]

Also, despite the Daniel passage, eternal punishment is not a view held in Judaism, http://www.christianforums.com/t7491713/

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

Jesus promises eternal life for those who trust and believe in Him. He goes on to define eternal life in John 17:3.

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

As others have explained there are many different viewpoints on what hell really is. But what is unmistakably clear is that hell is a very unpleasant alternative to what Jesus freely offers.

 

[salida]

I believe what the bible says about it which is an eternal punishment. Any christians I know believe this too. If there are christians that don't believe this-than I guess they believe their pastor or whom ever over the bible. The bible has ultimate authority not people who pick and choose what they want to believe.

 

[E.C.]

If by "hell" you mean the classic imagery of fire, brimstone, an elevator, heat, and a red heifer with a pitchfork; than no.

Lucky you I just read a post which quite succinctly stated the Orthodox Christian view on hell: http://www.christianforums.com/t7511570-5/#post56077858

 

[MattRose]

Amongst all the passages that speak of 'the negative afterlife' those that explicitly state eternal punishment are in the minority; you have two and one that implies it

The reason I asked the question originally is that I trying my best to see some rationality in the Christian faith. How can christians say that Verse A. confirms that hell is eternal punishment (EP), but then say because Verse B. doesn't say the same thing, that they will go along with Verse B. Verse B. in this case doesn't deny EP in hell, but it doesn't say for sure that there is EP. Now in this particular case Matthew 25:46 is clear about eternal punishment although punishment itself is not defined. From what I've read, in this case punishment=torment. How can christians discount this information when saying that hell doesn't exist or is not eternal torment?

My theory is that the bible says it here, doesn't deny it elsewhere in the bible, thus there is a hell for some of us, and it is eternal, and it is torment. You can't just point to another verse that leaves out (doesn't refute) one of the 3 conditions and use it to disprove Matthew 25:46.

 

[Fiatlux]

I've read many times here and other places that some christians don't believe in a literal hell. As the bible clearly mentions hell several times, I'm curious as to how a devout christian could deny the existence of hell.

I agree, If you have the Spirit of God he will reveal to those that belong to him all truth, and the truth of Hades/Hell is real.. even if we choose not to believe - God will give those who keep refusing the truth over to their depraved minds.. God is a God of judgment the bible show it over and over from the OT to Revelations.. Hell is not a figment of imagination as some wish to believe - the Spirit of Truth is true...

 

[Fiatlux]

If by "hell" you mean the classic imagery of fire, brimstone, an elevator, heat, and a red heifer with a pitchfork; than no.

"red heifer" now that's funny...depraved

 

[MattRose]

"red heifer" now that's funny...depraved

I think it's Gary Larson.

 

[E.C.]

"red heifer" now that's funny...depraved

I think it's Gary Larson.

 

[razeontherock]

in this case doesn't deny EP in hell, but it doesn't say for sure that there is EP. Now in this particular case Matthew 25:46 is clear about eternal punishment although punishment itself is not defined.

My theory is that the bible says it here, doesn't deny it elsewhere in the bible, thus there is a hell for some of us, and it is eternal, and it is torment. You can't just point to another verse that leaves out (doesn't refute) one of the 3 conditions and use it to disprove Matthew 25:46.

You can read this discussion all over CF. You can also find me probing those who say no EP, and they actually do address those verses that seem to make EP clear.

Here's a fact to consider:

"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell? Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him."

"When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"


I see you attempting to use logic to "figure out" Christianity. I find this admirable. It's the path I took.

It doesn't work.

There is "the mind of Christ," which is available to whosoever will. It is HIS own logic that answers things like this! Or not. There are some things we aren't told.

Consider:

"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."


That highlighted portion is your best proof for the Spiritual realm, IMHO. Not where I started though.

 

[MattRose]

Yes that is my point. EP happens. As a christian one can't deny the parts of the bible that make you uncomfortable. Although my guess is that a faithful christain who denies the existence of hell, will still go to heaven.

 

[razeontherock]

I really don't think you, as an unbeliever, can state EP happens. Although if that prospect helps you repent, go for it! I actually saw hell, and remained basically unchanged. That's pretty hard-hearted!

As a believer, (eventually) we can get to the place where we don't worry about hell, because regardless of the truth of it, we're immune. We literally attack the gates of hell, and are promised they can't win.