Any answers would help.

[Serapha]

I will try to respond to most of these posts but wanted to start with this one. I want to explain myself on something. I'm not here to discredit Christianity. I'm not here to point out the flaws in the Bible. I could and have done this before in everyday life, usually because someone tells me how I am supposed to live. This test, I took it but it is a negative test, impossible to come away with anything positive except a feeling a guilt. I noticed in one part is said something to the effect of if a judge let someone go of a crime they are guilty of would it make them a good judge, like the thought that we have that God is good. My first problem here is the judge is a man/woman not a higher being who is perfect. When I talk to Christians they tell me that God is a jealous God, I don't get that, makes no sense. Because in jealousy would be the same as to covet. Which would make God not perfect. In your post, you say that we are not all God's children. I don't get that either. If he created all then we are his children. You have to understand that my perspective on this is not coming from being an angry teenager who is trying to fit in, who is trying to look cool. This is a deep issue that I have. It effects everyday life, I am a Human Resources Manager for the United States largest cell phone company by day and a drummer/vocalist on weekends, a dad and a husband all the time and a son. People on a daily basis tell me that one day I will be paid back for the things I have done good. I can list a list of charity work that I have been involved with, people addicted to drugs who have come to me for help. I even and before someone goes on a tangent about me sounding selfish or defensive or arrogant, realize these are things that I have done from the goodness of my heart. A kid who I am still in daily contact had read an old website that I used to work for. He had lost father, he was 14. It was Christmas Eve, this kid went to a church in Cleveland, Ohio to have someone to talk to but they were closed for the holiday. So he sends the website an email and asks if there was anyway, I could chat with him. I too, lost my father when I was 14 and he needed advice, help, anything. This kid was destined to become a statistic, living in government housing, lost his brother a month before losing his dad, to a drive-by shooting. I found out he was a honor student and had a dream of being a Doctor but he didn't feel he continue to strive without his dad there. Everyday, I would talk to this kid, encourage him. He is now in his second year of med school at Duke University with a 4.0 GPA. When he had to present a thesis, he did it on the concept of God closing one door and opening another. He seen this as him losing his dad but meeting me. That to me, is more rewarding then anything I can find at a church. My point being and yes this almost is thesis (ignore humor). Most everything that I get as far as sites, tests from Christians are negative. It's as if as a Christian you live your life to prove how imperfect we are as humans. Where is the positivity? All I am seeing is that living a good life is not possible. That life, in of itself, should only be lived to give God the glory. My mind will not understand that because it goes into something that most of you have heard and I'm not trying to be one of those people but it goes into being mindless, a drone, a sheep. Maybe I'm just too analytical to ever accept something the way I think I should and that is in my heart, not my mind. I have read the New Testament in complete awe of the stories, it's truly a beautiful story. I appreciate the feedback. Thank you

HI there!




You are still a sinner in need of salvation.


~serapha~

 

[TheTruthinFiction]

Hi there!




None of what you posted is "salvation"

Are you saying that you have never had a bad thought? Never told a lie, even a small, white lie? Never disobeyed your parents? Never cheated anyone out of a penny? Never said a single bad word? Never looked at a woman with lust? Never looked at a Playboy magazine (or worse)??? Never treated the wife or kids unfairly?


Nothing? All of your actions and thoughts have been perfect for your entire life?

Everyone is born with a sin nature, and when you become aware of right and wrong and learn that there is a penalty for "wrong", and yet do something wrong, that's sin...




That right there is a wrong thought. If you can "just lie"... there's sin in your life that need redemption.

That's what salvation is about... finding that redemption.... getting redeemed.... and getting reconciled back to a perfect relationship with God.

Again... I would encourage you to find God at the soonest opportunity... for today is the day of salvation... The Bible never says that tomorrow is the day of salvation. Tomorrow will be too late for many.


~serapha~

I appreciate your posts to mine. I will go ahead and say ahead of time that I don't think the concept of what I'm talking about has sunk in for most people who are reading my post. Your post, really, I don't even think I should be answering this because you are not going to listen to me. I know in one of your other posts to mine that you say that I am still a sinner. Here is my first problem, I have said and continue to say that I know I am a sinner. I almost feel like I am being looked at as a child. I am well versed in the Bible and practically every other book of faith. These posts continue to show the negative of my life and of everyone's life. I don't live in negativity. Most of the questions you asked, yes I have done those things, except treated the wife and children unfairly. My wife and children are the purpose in my life. The same way you look at God, I look at my wife and children that way. I've been wanting to say these things but the majority of the people on here are very nice, very understanding and are offering very good advice. Then I read these few posts. There is nothing wrong with them. You are trying to, "wake me up" I take it but you must understand that I am plenty woke up. I feel like I have ran into a sheltered section now of this site. Nothing at all wrong with being sheltered but some people were not as lucky. I'm one of them. No pity stories because that is not the point of why I am here but I am also not here to be told what I am. I am the person that many people in churches fear. The open-minded person who for some reason doesn't believe the same way that they do. Me saying, "Living a good life" has somehow been twisted to me saying, "I'm perfect never made a mistake" even though moments before I said something about I know I have made mistakes. It's one thing to talk to me, to offer me advice, it's another to insult my intelligence. When I say living a good life. First, I was not using to describe myself, I was saying a Muslim or a Buddhist, not me but to make this more understandable. Living a good life-not hurting others, helping with anything you can, doing right by your family, etc... Maybe it is starting to show but I'm sure that I have had some past anger with some Christians, should be added that most everyone that has posted on here are not included in that. The anger comes from the Grandmother I spoke of. 90 years old and her daughters all retired, all with large homes, all church going but NONE were willing to take her in, instead they stuck her in a nursing home. These daughters of hers, all daughters of a preacher, all lecture me everytime I see them about how I need to be saved. Do you see my problem here? Saved or not, surely they will not go to Heaven. My Grandmother cries to me (that side of family is Italian), she says, "why bambino, they put me here". Do you understand the anger that runs through me at this point? Your posts sound just like them. I may be asked to leave this site after this post but here goes anyway. You are not going to reach me by pointing out my flaws that I already know I have. You will not wake me up to this wonderful light of salvation by putting my life in negativity and by twisting my words. I am the most balanced, mild-mannered person you will ever meet but this maybe irked me the wrong way. Maybe I should go into helping people because the ways that I see people trying to do it, is all wrong. You will never reach anyone by telling them they are a sinner. You also shouldn't have your tag on your name as, "Bible thumper". Bible thumper in defintion is someone who doesn't practice what they preach. Now what I will do is apologize if I have offended you or anyone reading this. That is not my intention. A lot of people have said that there is no feeling. If you will go through and read the many posts on this site even, there is talk of how they felt inside. I feel like this, Jesus died for me, thank you for that. Now, I will live the best I can and try to help others as much as I can. In a way, I feel like I am helping the person I am quoting. Take it from me, the stance you are taking is too strong, almost confrontational. Dare I say, "Holier than thou" stance. I mean no offense. If I wanted to be offensive it would be much worse than this. Someone used a comparison earlier, lets say I am falling over a cliff (good comparison, eh?) I don't need you to run up to me and tell me why I am falling over the cliff, I already know that. I need you to pull me back up. That is what I meant by the negativity, positivity parts. It may be easy for you to say that you believe in Jesus and understand him. Where as it is easy for me to say that I write song lyrics that talk about corruption in churches because it is what I know and what I seen growing up. Church was never something I had to do or was really ever mentioned even with a minister in the family. Sunday was my day with my dad, fishing, playing catch, looking at cars and even worse (I really want to laugh there) walking along the lake and looking at pretty women. Mom worked almost every Sunday, probably 3 out of the 4 Sundays in a month so it was just dad and I hanging out and him teaching me things about life, pretty women included (You really have to excuse my humor). I wouldn't change those days if I could. I guess I am done for now. One last time, do not take offense to this post, it is a mere opinion. Thanks

 

[MinDach]

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.


Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.


Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:


Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


If you read above you will see God put in every one the knowledge that He is Who he is. For No one is with excuse. So you have to decide what & who you believe, is he real ( God ) and did Jesus really die for me, its not about what your family may think about you one way or the other. Its all about do you want to meet God!!! Just you and him, its your choice. I have ( Many ) different people in my family too. All kinds. But that has nothing to do with my relation I have with Jesus. Do not let this world stop you from finding the other, as human we seem to put so many wall up on our paths of life, then we throw rocks on them too. Do not look at mankind for your answers, only the Holy Spirit can give you what you are searching for. For do you know your self, why you do some of the things you do? So how can we answer, why people may do the things they do.

 

[seebs]

You ask tough questions, friend. I have found that it is possible to come closer if you theorize that Hell is not retribution, but consequences. You are not picked up and put in Hell; you walk there.

 

[MinDach]

These daughters of hers, all daughters of a preacher, all lecture me everytime I see them about how I need to be saved. Do you see my problem here? Saved or not, surely they will not go to Heaven. My Grandmother cries to me (that side of family is Italian), she says, "why bambino, they put me here". Do you understand the anger that runs through me at this point? Your posts sound just like them. I may be asked to leave this site after this post but here goes anyway

You may be see this from a man's point of view, about your Grandmother.
My mother took care of my GrandMother, until she was destroying her own life. There is so much care that has to be done with our body when we get to a certain age. I for one would not let my own daughter spend years taking care of me. Why, because I love her. Would I expect her to visit ( yes ) every chance she got. So do not be to hard on the Girls, maybe look a little deeper for what is really there, some times we are really suprised, for what we thought we knew, its not what was really happening.

 

[TheTruthinFiction]

You may be see this from a man's point of view, about your Grandmother.
My mother took care of my GrandMother, until she was destroying her own life. There is so much care that has to be done with our body when we get to a certain age. I for one would not let my own daughter spend years taking care of me. Why, because I love her. Would I expect her to visit ( yes ) every chance she got. So do not be to hard on the Girls, maybe look a little deeper for what is really there, some times we are really suprised, for what we thought we knew, its not what was really happening.

Thanks for the reply, I probably should have went a little more into that story. My grandmother who up until she was 88, lived alone, drove herself to church, to the beauty salon, store etc.. She fell and broke her hip. At that time, I was living directly across the street from her and went over daily to help her with cooking, cleaning (she worried that the preacher would come by and something would be dirty) and take her trash out. The daughters would come by maybe twice a week. I was already married with a son at the time and finishing up college. When I got my degree it was required for me to move about 2 hours away for my job. Each daughter told me they would watch over her because they know how close I am to her and had been since birth. Within a year, they called me and said they put her in a nursing home (an apartment community, in their words). It's a nursing home, even says so on the sign outside. When I came in to visit her, I was told by the daughters that I was no longer needed. They were taking care of everything. I was literally disowned for wanting her to be back in her home. What I am saying is my grandmother does not need nursing. She is fine. Her only problem being that she can't drive anymore (lost eye-sight in one eye). The comment about I may not know everything is exactly right. It's my understanding that by putting her in a nursing home that they have, "custody, guardianship" over her and make her decisions. Her house was sold a few months ago to pay for nursing home costs. This house was in our family for 55 years and also from the youngest daughter (who refuses to join the others) that my grandmother had it in her will to be left to myself and the four other grandchildren, to be sold and split among us. The money is not a concern, I have and my family has everything we could ever want and probably a lot that we don't need but it still seems that they broke some kind of trust between a child and a mother. It just seems to me and here I go again, pushing an envelope, but each go to church. They know in their hearts that she would be fine at home, as long as they would drive her to the store once a week, beauty salon once a week and church once a week. They are all retired except the youngest. Their mom, my grandmother, worked her rear off for them. Years and years of working in a high school cafeteria just so they could go to college now the one time she needs them they turn from her. It's something that I will never understand because my mother is getting older, nearing retirement and I will build a section onto my house before she goes into a nursing home (she says she will haunt me if I put her in a nursing home) but I wouldn't put her there unless there was something that required a nurse to be right with her. I think the part I should have explained more is that I have lived my life up until a few years ago across the street from my grandmother and knew then and now that she does not belong in the nursing home. Thanks

 

[Serapha]

Hi there!

I believe you should go back and read your postings.... If you take "I" off the postings, there's nothing left in your life.


I will leave you to yourself. You know the gospel, therefore you know the only way.


~serapha~

 

[TheTruthinFiction]

Hi there!

I believe you should go back and read your postings.... If you take "I" off the postings, there's nothing left in your life.


I will leave you to yourself. You know the gospel, therefore you know the only way.


~serapha~

I see (sorry it's hard to write without using I's when describing myself) that you are offended, for that I apologize. I did post a seperate topic, thanking everyone including the ones who preached at me, because I did ask for your opinions. Your posts just seem so bitter. I never at one time claimed to know the gospel, I said I had read the Bible but never called myself an expert. Also notice that no where in any of my posts did I ask to be told the right or wrong way. This will be the second time that you have come up with something that for some reason you think I have said that I haven't. You seem to have some serious issues within yourself. If I wanted the right way do you think I would have came to the internet to find it? I was asking opinions, maybe thinking that someone had went through what I have. You talk about my posts being about me. Your posts were also about me. You passed judgment on me several times. I was not here to be belittled or to be frowned upon. I'm also not a person who has ever backed down from anyone but even so, I still think I (man those I's) have been very polite and nice to any and everyone who has offered me advice. Yours was not advice, you told me tomorrow is too late, must do it today. No, no, no, I must go to work, take care of my children and pay bills today. What you need to understand is that everyone who is not Christian is not evil. I asked for an opinion not a prepare for the endtime lecture. So to you, in front of the whole internet. You have my apology. I'm not looking to upset people or to shock them or anything like that. I am here for a reason and that is to understand but not to be told what to do. Ok? My apology to you.

 

[TheTruthinFiction]

Glad you replied!


Do you really think you've lived your life that well? You're not exactly St Francis, surely?


The Bible doesn't say that they will necessarily go to Hell. Are you bringing this up just so that you can say to God "I'm not that great, but neither are You"?


It's supposed to be both. You can't teach unless you understand.

And I don't think that you are trying to be a (add any word you would like here).

God bless you, and I hope you resolve your questions,

-- Radagast

PS: please do read CS Lewis' The Great Divorce.

Just a short reply. Thanks and I picked the book up earlier today. I haven't read any of it yet but plan to do so over the weekend. Thanks again.

 

[TheTruthinFiction]

You ask tough questions, friend. I have found that it is possible to come closer if you theorize that Hell is not retribution, but consequences. You are not picked up and put in Hell; you walk there.

Hey thanks, this reply was more what I was looking for. Thanks

 

[NothingButTheBlood]

Considering the way man is, the way I am. Being saved, reading my Bible, praying, going to church I am still a sinner. My question has never been why would God send people to Hell but why is so gracious and loving to let us in Heaven.

 

[Adoniram]

TheTruthinFiction-

Your feelings of frustration and being perturbed at your "Christian" relatives (from the above post) and church-going friends (from earlier posts) are understandable. Many of us would feel the same way if we were in your shoes. Some of us have been. Sometimes Christians can be callous and unfeeling. Sometimes they don't reflect a truly Christ-like attitude. Sometimes they get so caught up in being "Christian" that they forget to be Christ-like, if that makes sense. We all have things in our lives that we need to ask forgiveness for.

But please don't let the feelings you have for them get in the way of what could be for you, a very meaningful relationship with Jesus Christ. I see by your posts that you are a loving husband and father. You care about and try to help others. This is very good. Very good and I commend you. I can't say the same about many "professing Christians" that I know. But, I also think you have doubts. "I'm a good person but am I going to heaven?" Would you be here asking questions if you weren't posing those questions to yourself?

You have intimated that you think "good" people should be able to go to heaven without necessarily believing in Jesus. This is what all the major religions (including the ones you mentioned earlier) of the world except Christianity teach. Most don't call it heaven, but the goal is the same, a higher plane, etc. This teaching is to be expected because it comes from man. It would be nice to think that "I'm a good person, certainly alot better than so-and-so, and that should be good enough to get me there." But that's not what the Bible teaches and I think you know that because you are "well versed in the Bible." That's not what you were taught as a child on your grandmother's lap is it? You were taught that Jesus loves you and died for you. You said as much above. But somewhere along the way, the actions of others, the "corruption of the church" has pulled your focus away from the truth. Now you are here, searching. Maybe you feel like you have lost your way. You want to be "pulled back from the edge of the cliff." Am I understanding you correctly?


(I have to split this post up because the buffer isn't large enough.)

 

[Adoniram]

I hope so because I want to help. And the first thing that I have to say is that Jesus (called the Son of Man in the following verses) is searching for you, personally.

Matt. 18:11-14

11 For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.
12 "What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

This is a parable that illustrates Jesus' passion for finding that one lost soul. I hope it can give you some comfort to know that Jesus seeks you personally.

And I know that you are seeking also, but just now you have something that is hanging you up. It is the idea that men should be able to be good enough, do enough good works to be accepted into heaven. The problem with this is that it is a standard that men have set up. Everyone compares their own "goodness" with that of others. But this is not God's standard. God compares our "goodness" or righteousness to his own standard of righteousness and we just can't measure up to that.

Isaiah 64:6

But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

[Adoniram]

Not that good works aren't a good thing, they are, but God wants us to know that it is not what we do that can save us but rather it's what he does. Paul explains further in

Titus 3:1-7

1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. 3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

We have to come to the realization that simply by being good and doing good to others, we cannot save ourselves. We cannot say "we have earned it by what we did." Salvation is a gift from God to those who confess to him that they know they aren't good enough save themselves and acknowledge that they will trust in what Jesus did for us. You already know what that is. He loved us and died for us. When we believe in Jesus, God takes the blood that Jesus shed and "washes us white as snow." (Isa. 1:18) This is the "washing of regeneration" mentioned above. Don't ask me how he does this because I don't know. I just take it by faith because he said he would do it and I trust him. He imparts his righteousness to us. When we believe in Jesus, God views us as righteous because of what Jesus did for us.

Rom. 4:5

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

By the context of the preceding verses, take the first part of that verse to mean "...does not rely on his works..."

 

[Adoniram]

I apologize for having to split this up into so many posts. I wrote it all in one message and then when I went to post it, found out it was to large.

Anyway, I hope this is helping you. Suffice to say, if you are seeking, you must come to God on his terms, through faith in Jesus. I am going to stop for now to give you some time to digest this. In an earlier post you said you had as much devotion to your family as many of us have toward God. May I suggest to you that if you gave as much devotion to God, he would enrich your relationship to your family just that much more. You can't outgive God. He loves to bless those who serve him.

Looking forward to your response.

 

[AvgJoe]

TheTruthinFiction,

The main message I hear in your posts is that you desire to be saved but cannot move in that direction because of the hypocrisy you see displayed by Christians in your life and churches in you area. This is a common hangup for many unsaved people.

Are Christians hypocritical?
Yes, every Christian, especially myself, is hypocritical at one time or another. Some more often then others.

Are churches hypocritical?
Yes. Again, some more than others.

Is every person in this world hypocritical?
Probably, but I cannot say for sure. I can say that every close friend that I've ever had, Christian and non-Christian alike, has been hypocritical in one or more areas of their life.

The simple truth here is, when seeking salvation, none of this matters. Other people do not matter. Other poeple's words and actions do not matter. What a church does or does not do does not matter. Any person or organization of this world is the wrong measuring stick to use when contemplating your salvation.

Anyone can measure themselves compared to another person or organiztion, all day long, and come to the conclusion that they are just as good, or even better, than the other, thus, determining that they do not need what is being offered. With this type of reasoning, you will never take the next step toward salvation. It results in pride and God resists the proud (James 4:6).

The true measuring stick, when contemplating salvation, is a comparsion between yourself and the 10 Commandments, a picture of God's character. God's character is the standard, not the character of man. You already stated that you have violated God's Law and I'm sure you know that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).

It is my prayer that you will choose Life!

 

[Vigil]

Greetings and Blessing be upon you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If God is all-forgiven, if we are all his children then why would there be a hell? Maybe I have read too many Philosophical books and am thinking too much but it would seem to me that God would take that last moment as a person dies to show himself to them and to allow them to enter Heaven, where then the person would have felt his power to cleanse them and heal them. I also have trouble with the ideal that Muslims, Buddhist, etc.. who live life right, don't hurt others, raise families and live productive would be sent to hell for saying Allah or Buddha when they pray. It seems almost childish to me to believe that a word means more than living life right

Ok the basic gist of your post is here.

Why is there a Hell and why do “Good” people go to Hell. If I am correct on this issue.

How this really plays out, comes from how you view “Hell” and how you view “Heaven”



First step might be to realize that it is not “I haven’t done anything to deserve Hell” but come to realize that you “have done nothing to earn Heaven”



When you look at the afterlife, it is really like the “Lady and the Lion” scenario.

You have two ends to the story, one is Heaven the other is Hell. If you have not secured your place in Heaven, then you go to Hell. Hell is always the “Other Option” it not like you earned your place in Hell by works or deeds, it is and shall always be because you have not sought Heaven to be with God in his grace.



Once you stop looking at it like “I have been a good boy and don’t deserve Hell” and realize that it is “I have been a good boy, but have done nothing to earn my place in Heaven” it really does clear the whole issue up.



Now you might think you have done some good deeds, So I ask you then.

What have you done to deserve such an eternal reward?

Do you have anything to boast of that would impress the one who has made all there is?

Can you impress this “God” with your great deeds?



Now these questions are no real questions and I really don’t mean to seek an answer form you, but it is to give you insight, to make you realize for a moment why things are as they are.



When you realize that “Hell” is not some from of “God wants to be (Evil Bad) to you, and send you to a place of eternal torment because of what you have done” it truly opens your eyes to the confused nature people have regarding “Hell” I mean really, do you really think you’re a greater sinner then I? Do you believe you have “Earned Hell” and I have not?



I say to you, no one is with out sin, we have all fallen short of the Kingdom of Heaven, but exactly what we have done, we have not fallen into Hell, we have fallen Short of Heaven, but God in his Great Grace and Endless Mercy has given us a way by which we can enter his Holy Kingdom though the cleansing Blood of Jesus Christ. To live in his Divinity and Beauty, to be remade as God sees us, to be made whole and perfect in his sight, to be filled with the Light and Glory of Love forever and ever Amen.



As soon as you realize that, you might come to realize that “Hell” is not earned, it’s the end result of not seeking “Heaven.”



When you reject God’s Mercy to bring you up to Him, to be with Him in “Heaven”, to live eternally in contentment, God gives you only what you have asked for, you just call it “Hell”



God Bless.

Vigil.

P.s. I'll get to your other posts Later. You have typed a lot.

 

[heron]

Some of what TruthInFiction expressed in his original post: why push yourself into giving and giving to an organization that is not giving back?

We see our churches as valuable emotionally and spiritually, and sometimes socially--but from his standpoint, every member of his family has given and stretched their limits, but the church has not supported them in times of weakness as they claim they should.

Some trends in current Christianity are "clinch the deal" evangelism, appetite for expansion (while individuals remain impoverished), and competition for spiritual depth and notoriety (while phasing out alms-related programs).

The stories he tells are microcosms of the larger picture. I believe that we need to look at this dilemma in the face of our successes in growth, and ask ourselves if we are really doing Christ's work.

Much of what happens in the church today spins in the midst of members working overtime, both spouses working (where decades ago, more people had time to take care of others), and many members unemployed. Areas of care are neglected because people simply don't have the time.

Should we give up areas that we love (Friday informal services, worship team making CDs, dance teams, extra retreats, prophecy conferences, mission trips) in order to sacrifice with less glamorous/interesting activities, like caring for our needy?

If the our family members are feeling trapped and impaired, are we spending more of our time at church than helping with mundane activities, because God would prefer that?

 

[Asilentopinion]

Before I comment, let me add that I am Truth in Fiction (his name is Tim) wife. He had told me about posting on here and how most of what he said went overlooked, except anything negative. As I glanced through this thread it was heartbreaking. I am a Christian and have been since birth. Tim was the hardest sell on my parents that I have ever done. He was 21, I was 17. Being from Puerto-Rico and partially deaf in one ear made it even harder because my parents feared he would take advantage of me or distort my religious upbringing. Can you imagine bringing a guy home to meet mom and dad and the guy walks in with a tattoo on his forearm, shaved head, goatee and here I was a 17 year old high school student. Through those almost 10 years, my parents have accepted Tim and love him as much or in my dad's case, maybe more than their own children. Tim is an awesome dad and husband. We have two children who trust everything they do to, "Daddy". Some of the questions that were asked of him that he didn't answer. One was involving what had he done in life that made him think he would be accepted to Heaven. I thought that question was just way out of line but because Tim is very humble, he must have felt it didn't need to be told. That means that me saying it wouldn't be such a bad thing, showing pride in himself. Probably didn't pick that up did you all? Tim has a playground in an inner city named after him for hundreds of hours of volunteer time working with troubled teens and he donated to help them get new playground equipment. He has a list of at least 75 people who he has helped one on one to break drug habits. This is a man who had one parent who loves him the way a parent should (his mom) and a father who abused him from the age of 7 until he passed away when Tim was 14. In one part, I noticed he talked about the sheltered group of Christians who had life probably the way I did, two loving parents, good education, church every week and for a long time I thought he was crazy when he would say that but I see what he means now. We now have helped his mother who has renal cancer into an apartment that is within driving distance of where we live and daily he stops by to see her and check on her. Among his childhood friends, he made a list of them the other day to contact them and see how they were doing, 8 are dead, 13 are in jail and 4 are still alive and well. He is a fighter for equality, racial, sex, religion. It really hurt me you all to read the posts after posts that were questioning his righteousness. He has a cousin who was his best friend since they were 5 years old. This cousin committed suicide this past Christmas. Tim went to his house and sit in the blood and held his face together until the paramedics could get there. No one, not his cousin's mom, not his sisters came to his house, just Tim. He came home from the hospital and was soaked with blood. The point I'm trying to make is that I know he wouldn't say it but I will, there is no one except God that could ever try to judge Tim. The preacher at the church myself and our children go to tries to get me to talk Tim into coming. Not because he thinks he needs church but because he thinks he can help members at the church, with his positive attitude towards life. I have found myself questioning whether I should take the children to church or stay at home on Sunday. It makes me wonder how much Tim talks about with the problems in churches, corruption that we would be better off at home. Our little boy is already wanting to stay home with daddy so they can, "Do boys stuff" he is 6. Really I didn't grasp how many of us Christians sound until I read this topic. Tim's original question was asking for opinions but instead of opinions, he got answers to why he was wrong and how he is a sinner. Some of these posts really meant a lot to them. He even got the Bible out and was reading some of the quotes to me. I was really happy. In my mind, this would help him but I don't believe that is the case. You all will have to understand that Tim has lived a life where he has been betrayed, starting with his dad, to finding out he had two half-sisters at his dad's funeral who refuse to have contact with Tim now, to having a family that as he mentioned disowned him and this doesn't count the friends and family members he has lost. Most people that know him say that it's a miracle that he hasn't lost his mind and even more a miracle that he is a sensible, respectful and a gentleman as he is. This is a man who has a daughter that can't go to sleep until daddy tells her a story, has a son who thinks daddy is the coolest person in the world and has a mom who says her proudest moment in life is her son. My question to many of you is how many people would say these things about you all? I know that maybe 1 would say things like this about me and that would be Tim. I'm not going to ask for apologies because Tim doesn't hold grudges. I want to thank "heron" for seeing what Tim was talking about. Also the person who posted the long post that was split into seperate ones. Tim read your posts completely and even wrote down the verses you listed and will probably post back this weekend. Right now he is working 40 hours a week, recording a new album with his band, helping promote his cousin's band and still is spending all of his extra time with myself and our children. One more part that I thought was really cute and was telling the members at our church. We were in the typical American habit of pick a pizza up on Saturday and rent a movie. Tim is a southern born American and loves the outdoors. He took our kids and myself to a farm that had fresh green beans and corn. We bought some and he had the kids to help us with shucking the corn and breaking the beans. We spent all day under a shade tree doing this and most of the evening cooking them and it showed me again that he is not an average man, a wonderful day for the family, kids loved it and so did I. I will leave you all with this thought, Tim has told me he doesn't pray to God because God already gave His son for him. Instead he says he has a conversation with God and asks that He leads him in the right directions, nothing materialistic. To me he should have one of the Christian icons on his name as much as anyone should. Take his advice, it's never failed me.

 

[Radagast]

... most of what he said went overlooked, except anything negative.

One of the problems with long posts, I guess, especially without paragraph breaks... people pick up on one or two points and focus on those.

... It really hurt me you all to read the posts after posts that were questioning his righteousness.

I was probably one of those, and I'm very sorry for hurting you. Looking back on my posts, thay may have been a little harsh in tone.

And Tim is obviously a wonderful man. Indeed, a better man than I am, I have no doubt. But righteous enough to enter Heaven without Jesus? No. Tim needs to accept Jesus (but I guess we've all said that often enough).

... I have found myself questioning whether I should take the children to church or stay at home on Sunday.

I hope that God, through you, will bring Tim to Christ, rather than Tim taking you and the children away from God.

... he got answers to why he was wrong and how he is a sinner.

We're all sinners!

Having said that, your church seems to have problems (indeed, perhaps you should go elsewhere).

I hope Tim read the book on Hell I recommended -- it was the best way I could think of to answer his questions.

God bless all of you,

-- Radagast